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<jcater> morning
<Vee2d2> howdy
Action: Vee2d2 has gotten around to reading some of the documentation.. 
<Vee2d2> Just started reading your doc on forms, even.. =)
<jcater> cool
<jcater> I have a new draft coming out this week
<Vee2d2> I'm hoping that perhaps after some more reading I might have an inclination of what, if anything I might be able to do.. 
<jcater> cool
<jcater> I have to go to bed now....
<Vee2d2> night
<jcater> before I pass out
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<psu> nite
<psu> oops, too late
<Vee2d2> has the general focus of the project changed at some point? I had looked at it very breifly a long time ago and stopped when it seemed pretty clear it was aimed at pretty large companies and I seem to remember java being used..? After the reading I've done so far it seems much more like a swiss army knife that anyone can take advantage of.. Maybe I just didnt look good enough initially.. 
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Action: Vee2d2 ponders coffee
<psu> hmm
<psu> Well, first of all, I suppose you could say a free s/w project doesn't have a focus, per se
<psu> too many people scratching itches
<psu> ;-)
<psu> I think that there was always this duality of Tools and Packages
<ajmitch> hi
<psu> until, say, 6 months ago we probably over-focused on the packages
<psu> which are the end-game
<psu> and sold ourselves short on the fact
<psu> hi ajmitch
<psu> that we had some really useful toolkit stuff here and now
<psu> Also, part of the reason for derek and the others spinning gnue-sb into an independant sub-project
<psu> was to avoid the confusion
<psu> The GNUe packages on the website, aimed at anything up to large enterprises
<psu> are still planned
<psu> gnue-sb just represents an example of what we've always talked about
<psu> using the GNUe Tools to produce non-official packages
<psu> Project papo is similar, really
<Vee2d2> where is your itch in this, psu?
<psu> I guess I'm more interested in the final packages
<psu> gnue-sb is not really aimed at the sorts of orgs I have worked in/for
<psu> medium to large public sector
<psu> Until then, I just hang around here, abuse ajmitch and do various website and docs stuff ;-)
<Vee2d2> =)
<ajmitch> everyone abuses ajmitch :)
<Vee2d2> care to share your itch, ajmitch. I'm guessing it's not just abusement?
<ajmitch> i'm here because i'm addicted
<Vee2d2> The developer's intro has me pretty interested
<Vee2d2> interested, too.
<Vee2d2> erp
<psu> ajmitch seems to have developed a specialism as our "not really a database, but still needs a driver" guy
<ajmitch> things like mysql, which i'm forced to endure
<psu> gadfly, comma seperated values, mySQL..
<ajmitch> i have an interest in GNUe for small apps
<ajmitch> that can be thrown together quickly
<Vee2d2> I have kindered a liking to mySQL.. 
<Vee2d2> albeit I really wish it had subselects.. 
<ajmitch> you like mysql?
<ajmitch> sicko
<psu>  /msg ajmitch he should fit right in, then ;-)
<psu> oops
<psu> hmm, the font that I used on the website to do pngs of people's e-mail addresses 
<psu> to foil spambots
<psu> is so effective, not even I can read it...
<Vee2d2> haha
<Vee2d2> good technique
<psu> malocke suggested it
<Vee2d2> you using gd or something to create them on the fly?
<psu> no - madlocke wrote me a txt2png script
<psu> in python, of course ;-)
<Vee2d2> that's something I s'pose I need to checkout.. 
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<Arturas> Good morning :)
<psu> hi Arturas
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<rm-lunch> oops
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<reinhard> forgot to change my nickname back
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<lupo> teatime
<reinhard> brb
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<Vee2d2> halo
<jamest> hi
<lupo_> hi
<Vee2d2> jamest: is the formating on the technical reference doc intentionally align='center' ?
<lupo_> Vee2d2: afaik the tech ref is exported from openoffice
<jamest> Vee2d2: no
<Vee2d2> ahh.. the pdf lends itself to much easier reading.. =)
<jamest> OO 643 dev release has a habit of doing that 
<jamest> someone must have commited that by mistake
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<lupo_> is gnue-sb currently in heavy development?
<jamest> that's a derek question
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<lupo_> hi jcater
Action: Vee2d2 swims in the river of coffee
<lupo_> gnu.org is dead :/
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<Vee2d2> oh neato! 
Action: Vee2d2 checks the screen shots of the new (.5) designer
<jbailey> will there be an 0.4.3 release?
<Vee2d2> jbailey: should there be a dependency on wxpython in the debs? 
<Vee2d2> the kernel cousins sure are good reading..
<Vee2d2> I need to find some time later and just start from the beginning
Action: Vee2d2 spins around and gets back to work
<jbailey> Vee2d2: Isn't there?
<jbailey> I thought I put the wx dependency in there.
<jbailey> If it's not there, feel free to file a bug.
<jbailey> I heard that Derek was going to do an 0.4.3 release that fixes MySQL bugs that ajmitch reported so I was waiting for that.
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<ra3vat_> hi all
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<Vee2d2> I see there's already a bug filed againster gnue-designer, re: #171332: gnue-designer: Missing dependency on wxpython
<revDeke> mmm lunch
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<stbain[w3rk]> greetz
<Vee2d2> hi
<revDeke> su stu
<revDeke> er sup stu
Action: Vee2d2 indulges on another spring roll
Action: jbailey is back (gone 00:38:53)
<jbailey> Vee2d2: Yeah, that derek guy filed a bunch of bugs
<jbailey> Vee2d2: I'm hoping he'll fix the missing man pages one himself, though.
<revDeke> jbailey: i didnt get to test designer yet :)
<revDeke> only common and reports
<jbailey> revDeke: Does reports work?
<revDeke> yes and no
<revDeke> as packaged no
<revDeke> if you close all the bug reports i sent 
<revDeke> yes
<jbailey> Basically, I'm planning on updating my CVS checkout to HEAD so I can do some hacking, so I'll only be tracking releases for the 0.4 branch after this.
<jbailey> Ah, okay.
<revDeke> most of them were 'missing files'
<revDeke> and why no 'patches' were submitted
<revDeke> but rather told you what files need to be included
<revDeke> i have 0.4.3 about ready to go
<jbailey> Ah, okay.
<revDeke> just need to make the tarballs and such
<jbailey> Cool.
<jbailey> When you do it, I'll upload the new debs.
<jbailey> In the meantime I'm reseeting my CVS tree to head.
Action: revDeke thinks you just prefer head in general (pun intended)
<jbailey> Well, I phear to think what you're planning on doing with the branch.
<jbailey> Nothing good comes to mind.
<revDeke> just dont tell other debian developers you have packaged head or you might flood out the debian mirrors
<ajmitch> morning
<jcater> afternoon
<jbailey> Heya Mr. Mitchel.
<jbailey> Hmm.
<jbailey> mitchell?
<jbailey> I can't remmeber how to spell it.= (
<ajmitch> silly jeff
<ajmitch> it's mitchell
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<Vee2d2> wb psu
<psu> thanks
<jcater> grrr
<jcater> I'm gonna have to install gnome just to get my gtk fonts decent on my system
<jcater> damn unfriendly linux apps
<jcater> *g*
<ajmitch> :)
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/screenshots/designer-docks.png
<jcater> look at that
<jcater> they're huge
<ajmitch> you've got 100dpi fonts?
<psu> "Never mind the quality, feel the width"
<jcater> possibly under gtk
Action: jcater uses only scaled, antialiased fonts under kde
<psu> speaking of fonts 
<jcater> is gnome2 working in sid yet?
<psu> can someone take a look at 
<psu> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/community/contrib.php
<psu> and check the fonts in the first two sections are readable
<ajmitch> j's get clipped in email addresses
Action: psu keeps on trying, but one of my cache/proxies keeps using the old images
<ajmitch> the italics look bad, as it seems to clip :)
<psu> hmm sounds like the old fonts
<ajmitch> ah yes
Action: psu will have to ssh in & sort this out
<ajmitch> i reloaded, doesn't look quite as bad
<ajmitch> still looks crap, but readable ;)
<psu> it's a fine line between making them look readable to human beings
<psu> but not so readable that an automatic spambot can capture them
<ajmitch> i can't really read sklein's address
Action: psu read some other tricks somwhere - might try those instead
<psu> ajmitch: agreed. Let me try something else...
<jcater> psu: http://www.robelle.com/tips/email-cloak.html
<jcater> http://siteup.com/encoder.html
<psu> i will have a look
<psu> I know some people just entity encode addresses &040; &041; etc
<psu> or else use javascript, which I'd rather not
<jcater> I've also seen people do: 
<jcater> jason<!-- this is a useless comment -->&#64;<!-- ditto -->ncsmags.com
<psu> heh
<psu> I figure tricks like this are the spambot equivalent of a steering wheel lock
<psu> i.e. won't deter the real professional
<psu> but is probably enough to persuade the casual spambot to break into the car next to you instead
<jcater> I personally don't care about my email address
<jcater> as it's scattered on so much crap on our website already :)
<revDeke> jcater: gnome2 in sid is tight
<revDeke> you should be able to use upgrade to gnome2 w/o running gnome
<revDeke> and use antialiased fonts there as well
<revDeke> your best bet is to fix XF86Config-4 to rid evil default fonts
<revDeke> if you comment out the line that runs the font server on port 7100
<revDeke> then flip 75dpi and 100dpi
<revDeke> lines that follow it (should be 2 each)
<revDeke> and restart x
<revDeke> you will have nice looking font size in gtk applications
<jcater> I rid default fonts long ago
<jcater> I only use scaled ones iirc
<jcater> E: Package gnome2 has no installation candidate
<revDeke> note: this has effect of forever reverting back everytime you upgrade X
<revDeke> as debconf doesnt respect your changes
<revDeke> apt-get install debfoster
<ajmitch> umm
<revDeke> debfoster -u gnome
<revDeke> for sid
<ajmitch> it does if you chose the right options
<revDeke> there is no 'gnome2'
<jcater> E: Package gnome2 has no installation candidate
<revDeke> as now its the default gnome for sid (iirc)
<jcater> err
<revDeke> jcater: you get that error with debfoster -u gnome :?
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> no
<jcater> Sorry, but the following packages have unmet dependencies:
<jcater>   libgnutls5: Depends: libopencdk4 but it is not installable
<jcater> E: Sorry, broken packages
<jcater> but I get that
<revDeke> i have upgraded 3 machines last week doing with no problems
<revDeke> sigh looks like someone broked something
<revDeke> what happens if you do the insane
<revDeke> apt-get upgrade
Action: revDeke wouldnt suggest it
<revDeke> just curious
<jcater> are you nuts?!?
<jcater> this is my workstation
Action: jcater is already shitting bricks by using anything from unstable
<jbailey> jcater: The libgnutls5 problem is temporary.
<jcater> ok, I've lived with the font problem this long
<jbailey> And I ran apt-get upgrade yesterday at home and at work and it's fine for now.
<jcater> I can wait a week or so :)
<jbailey> You should only need to wait for a couple of days.
<jbailey> I can also post the old gnutls lib for you.
<jbailey> ACtually, I guess I did the apt-get upgrade this morning.
<revDeke> jcater: if you do my XF86Config trick it will fix your font problem
<jbailey> There's been nothing scary in the last fwe days.
<revDeke> at least it always has for me
<jbailey> revDeke: Mmmm.  My XF86Config had 100dpi by default.
<revDeke> they all do
<revDeke> and thats why they look like crap
<revDeke> the biggest thing is getting that frelling font server gone
<revDeke> and having it look directly at fonts
<revDeke> imho
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<revDeke> i was nervous at first to do it
<revDeke> but mdean suggested it and ever since my font nightmares have been alleviated
<revDeke> that was about a year ago
<jcater> yeah, I don't do font servers
<revDeke> if you dont have font server just make sure
<revDeke> 75dpi fonts are listed BEFORE 100dpi fonts
<revDeke> in your xf86 file and you should be good
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<Vee2d2> survey says?!
<jcater> fonts are smaller
<jcater> unfortunately old fonts were MUCH easier on the eyes
<jcater> but at least my labels show up right in the wx grids :)
<jcater> now if wx would just give me a way to autosize those suckers
<jcater> I can do back to my happy large fonts
<revDeke> yeah you need gnome2 to get 'pretty' fonts
<revDeke> but that should get you 'smaller' fonts :)
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> can someone send me that .deb?
<jcater> if I stick with this
<jcater> I'll have to dig out my glasses
<jcater> (which I should do anyway)
<jbailey> which deb?
<jbailey> libgnutls5?
<jcater> yeah
<revDeke> give him the gnut
<jcater> um
<jcater> dudes
Action: jcater hugs kde
<jcater> gnome2 default install
<jcater> is butt-ugly
<jcater> and I mean that with all sincerety
<jcater> man, I'm out of touch
<jcater> when did icewm become the default gnome wm?
<jbailey> What are you um'ing at now?
<jbailey> *blink*
<jbailey> what?
<jbailey> It should be metacity.
Action: jcater has a blank xinit -- :2
<jcater> up
<jcater> and did gnome-wm
<jcater> and it started up gnome2 with icewm as it's wm
<jbailey> Did you have icewm installed before?
<jcater> not intentionally
<jcater> but it's possible
<jbailey> Hmm.
<jcater> jason:~# apt-get install metacity
<jcater> Reading Package Lists... Done
<jcater> Building Dependency Tree... Done
<jcater> Sorry, metacity is already the newest version.
<jbailey> There are strage rules as to how which wm is chosen.
<jcater> how bizarre
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<Mr_You> hi
<jcater> bugger
<jbailey> jcater: I'm too busy at work for that right now.
<Mr_You> storm last week was a doozey :-(
<jcater> lol
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<KeithJagrs> hello
<KeithJagrs> ;)
<jcater> bingo
<jcater> I was supposed to start with gnome-session
<jcater> not gnome-wmn
<jcater> err gnome-wm
<jcater> much better
<jcater> although I still think gnome is butt-ugly :)
<jcater> KeithJagrs: howdy
<KeithJagrs> jcater: hi
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<KeithJagrs> I wonder if the announce of JBoss and Sun about the Open Source http://www.theopenenterprise.com/story/TOE20021204S0001 
<KeithJagrs> sorry
<KeithJagrs> i was saying 
<KeithJagrs> I wonder if the announce of JBoss and Sun about the Open Source J2EE 1.4 spec aap server would have any effect in the development of GNUe
<jcater> nope
<KeithJagrs> because as I understand, one of the reasons to chose Python was that Java wasn't open source
<KeithJagrs> so this doesn't change anything?
<psu> s/open source/free software
<psu> I know we sound like RMS sound-a-likes, but there is a significant difference
<KeithJagrs> well that is good news to me, as I have no plan to learn Java. hehe
<psu> and, to be fair, the preference for python over java isn't just about freedom
<KeithJagrs> anyway,  please elaborate, psu
<psu> as we "collective we" feel python is a better lang for a large, volunteer project like this
<psu> as it produces fairly claen code
<KeithJagrs> I agree on that
<psu> and is, if anything, more multi-platform than java
<jcater> KeithJagrs: there's more to it than just being open source/free
<jcater> java is not scalable for client stuff
<jcater> I don't care what other people say
<jcater> before I joined GNUe
<jcater> I did a complete forms-equiv package in java
<jcater> we abandoned it
<jcater> because on our high-end windows machine
<jcater> it was barely usable
<jcater> and only a few people had high-end machines :)
Action: jcater considers himself to be a fairly efficient coder too
<jcater> but even then, the free/open source aspect was huge too
<jcater> but regardless
<jcater> we LOVE python
Action: jcater wishes he could set font sizes in xchat
<jcater> we <font size="72pt"> LOVE </font> Python
<KeithJagrs> heh
<Vee2d2> it's all about the love
<KeithJagrs> how tender
<jcater> you couldn't pay me to switch back to java
<KeithJagrs> ;)
<jamest> dude
<jamest> don't even get me started on java based solutions :)
<jcater> jamest: what do you think about java?
<KeithJagrs> hahahaha
Action: jcater hides 
<jamest> it's just so GOOD
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/screenshots/designer-docks.png
<jcater> now the labels are readable :)
<KeithJagrs> Do you think GNUe App Serv could be the JBoss of the Python World?
<jcater> GNUe App Serv will be the JBoss of the GNUe World
<jcater> that's all we are worried about
<jamest> it a "gee I shouldn't have been walking all alone at night in this dark alley and now why have all these huge guys in ski masks pulling down my pants and telling me to take it like a man" kind of way
<jcater> if it moves beyond that, then great!
<jamest> s/it/in
<jcater> jamest: you say that
<jcater> but is that how you REALLY feel?
<jamest> well, no
<Mr_You> eww
<jamest> its worse actually
<KeithJagrs> worse?
<jcater> it's Jack the Ripper
<jcater> on steroids
<jamest> and involves the same alley, super glue, sandpaper, and a goat
<KeithJagrs> the same guys in ski mask , but make them Jamaican stunts
<jamest> it's a goat in a ski mask
<Vee2d2> my image of goats has been forever tarnished
<jcater> Vee2d2: that's nothing
<jcater> you should see our Designer logo
<jamest> rofl
<jamest> non-offical of course
<KeithJagrs> what is the logo
<KeithJagrs> where
Action: jcater hopes you guys have a good sense of humor :)
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/goats/designer-splash.png
<KeithJagrs> hmmm
<KeithJagrs> what exactly is that goat doing?
<revDeke> jboss and gnue appserver i think have different goals
<revDeke> jcater: re gnome2
<jbailey> jcater: Is that the same one as before?
<jcater> jbailey: yeah
<revDeke> its quite pretty (better than kde i think) just not by default
<revDeke> i.e. kde default is much nicer than gnome default
<revDeke> and the window manager situation for gnome 2 just sucks
<Mr_You> wth haha
<revDeke> i think for experienced users i would suggest gnome2 
<KeithJagrs> revDeke: what are the differences in goals
<jcater> revDeke: that's twisted logic
<revDeke> for new converts i would suggest kde
<jcater> as the only thing that counts is initial
<jcater> as there's nothing config wise
<jcater> you can do in one
<jcater> that you can't do in the other
<revDeke> fwiw: i REALLY like kde3
<jbailey> revDeke: I hated the kde default.
Action: Mr_You likes KDE
<revDeke> jbailey: i didnt like the kde default for me
<revDeke> but for wife i loved it
<jamest> KeithJagrs: he's mad goat raping the system gnue is installed upon
<Mr_You> but KDE and GNOME are so similar that I shoot for windowmaker ;-)
Action: Mr_You can't follow the sheep.
<revDeke> Mr_You: i for the longest time have been using fluxbox
<Mr_You> j/k ;-)
<jbailey> revDeke: Weird.  Angie had the same reaction.  "What do all of these things *Do*?"  gnome2 has a nice default in that there's almost nothing up there.
Action: Vee2d2 makes GNUe shirts/caps/jackets/underwear with jcater's logo
<jcater> well, I need a desktop environment for my users
<jbailey> Underwear
<jbailey> ?
<jcater> not a window manager
<jcater> I hate them on gnome 1.4 for a year
<revDeke> jcater: for me the biggest difference in gnome2 and kde3 i can see
<jcater> they hated it
<jcater> I hated it
<Mr_You> desktop env. includes window manager :-P
<jcater> everyone hated it
<jbailey> jcater: We've got gnome2 on a few desktops here (woo solaris) and it's been fine so far.
<jcater> Mr_You: yes
<jcater> that's my point
<jcater> but vice-versa isn;t true
<revDeke> is i find kde icons to overtly ugly and i dont care much for qt widget set
<revDeke> though i dont have many qt apps
<Vee2d2> jbailey: you dont have any embroidered undies? bet your wife does.. =)
<jcater> funny
<jcater> I can't stand the gtk apps
<jcater> they are the bane of my desktop
<jcater> if I could replace sylpheed and xchat
<jcater> with something using qt
<revDeke> i dont care much for gtk widget sets either
<jcater> I would in a second
<revDeke> but the iconts are MUCH MUCH nicer
<jcater> icons?
<Mr_You> jbailey: that is not Suns labeled GNOME or yes?
<jcater> good god man
<KeithJagrs> jamest: raping? hmm ... He is going to have the floppy drive so backup tapes can be inserted
<ajmitch> ello all
Action: revDeke particulary hates kde dialogs
<revDeke> but gnomes are just as bad in teh OPPOSITE direction
<jcater> ajmitch: werd
<revDeke> gnomes dont give you enough information
<jbailey> jcater: concur that gtk is mediocre.  I like the gtk2 widgets.
<revDeke> kde give syou so much information the look and feel is horrid
<jbailey> Mr_You: Probably - The solaris ones are the gnome2 perview.
<revDeke> they need to hit middle ground
Action: jcater hates the photo-realistic direction icons are going
<revDeke> i just love the fact there are two user capable desktops avaialble
<Mr_You> jbailey: that is Solaris 10?  AFAIK only Solaris 10 distributes GNOME2 and is default.. ie. bye bye CDE
<revDeke> that have nearly identical feature sets
<Vee2d2> ditto that, revDeke
<revDeke> and a whole slew of 'hacker' type desktops that are optimized for different functionality like the *boxes (for speed) flux, black, ice etc
<jbailey> Mr_You: It's the advance preview for Solaris 8.
<Mr_You> btw, I used GNUe as an example of a project that sets guidelines, roadmaps, developers, etc for someone to consider ;-)
<Mr_You> if someone comes looking
<jbailey> Mr_You: Also refer them to GCC.
Action: revDeke will always run gnome to some capacity and support it best i can, because i still have little faith in the Kompany and Qt with respects to freedom, i wouldnt avoid them or tell people dont use them, but i would like to make sure there is always an alternative
<Mr_You> his name is Andy and is interested in FreeBSD clustering
<Mr_You> jbailey: ok thanks
<jcater> revDeke: grrrrr
Action: revDeke knows Kompany != KDE
<jcater> KDE != kompany as much as gnome != ximian
<revDeke> but qt is the real question mark
Action: Mr_You will always run KDE and GNOME side by side.
<jcater> well then, don't link them
<jcater> revDeke: one thing to consider
<revDeke> i link Ximian and gnome in a simliar way
<ajmitch> mono == ximian :)
<revDeke> i dont like that ximian is so tied to gnome's future
<jbailey> jcater: gnome != ximian, but barely.
<jbailey> They certainly don't seem to like to admit they're a GNU projet.
<jcater> well, kde no where near == kompany
<revDeke> but its nice to see that there is enough 'opposition' to them 
<revDeke> jcater: you are much more bsd is ok than i
<revDeke> when i say 'the kompany' i should say kde developers attitude
Action: revDeke notes most of them were developers of qt stuff when qt was BADLY licensed
<revDeke> that tells me they dont give a shit about licensing
<jcater> by your definitions
<revDeke> thats what worries me
<jcater> qt is more free than gtk
<KeithJagrs> talking about the company, I seem to have read that they have a product for programming for PDAs
<revDeke> i agree 100%
<jcater> revDeke: I don't thinlk that's true at all these days
<KeithJagrs> er, the kompany
Action: revDeke is stating that i worry about kde being more dominant because they are more BSD
<revDeke> which means Billy and Friends can slurp them up and put a fscking on the community
<Mr_You> very possible
<revDeke> an example (not kde based) is OS X
<KeithJagrs> how difficult would it be to write GNUe clients in PDAs?
Action: jcater thinks that's a just perception 
<revDeke> is is SERIOUSLY popular
<jcater> last I checked, all of KDE was gpl or lgpl
<revDeke> if you ask FSF folks and debian developers what the biggest threats to free software are
<revDeke> its basically
<Mr_You> KeithJagrs: depends, but not impossible
Action: jcater thinks this is just a perception issue
<revDeke> 1. legal issues (like DRM and DMCA etc)
<revDeke> and
<jcater> KeithJagrs: not hard at all
<revDeke> 2. OS X 
<jcater> we were already looking at possibly doing an EmbeddedQT driver
<Mr_You> keithjagrs: the web client should (eventually) work on PDA if it has a browser.
<revDeke> jcater: im not worried about KDE
<revDeke> its QT that is the issue
<revDeke> and KDE is built on qt
<KeithJagrs> oh sure
<jcater> which is a small extension of a QT driver
<revDeke> so just like they are doing with pda's
<revDeke> and not offering free qtopia type stuff
<jcater> revDeke: dude
<jcater> riddle me this
<revDeke> they could EASILY do
<jcater> when SAP-DB goes the dual-licensing route
<revDeke> if someone like microsoft adopted kde and paid big bucks to trolltech
<jcater> you are all over them and proud, etc
<jcater> when Trolltech does it
<jcater> you are critical
<jcater> what's the difference?
<revDeke> is QT dual licensed under the GPL ?
<Mr_You> we're human? ;-)
<jcater> revDeke: yes
<revDeke> if so i will shut my pie hole right now
<revDeke> if its under LGPL or other BSDish free license
<revDeke> i will say thats the difference
<jcater> it's GPL
<revDeke> to my knowledge they didnt GPL
<jcater> gtk is the one under lgpl
<revDeke> and i flame rms REGULARLY about this
<revDeke> i have told him Miguel is a SHAME to the FSF board
<ajmitch> revDeke: Qt is dual-licensed QPL/GPL for the Free edition
<jcater> revDeke: http://www.trolltech.com/developer/licensing/
<jcater> read that
<jcater> what gets me is
<jcater> not once do they even reference "Open Source"
<jcater> they openly state "Free software"
<jcater> not even gnome does that these days :)
<jcater> ok, they say "Open Source" one time
<jcater> but several "Free software" references
<ajmitch> even qtopia is GPL
<KeithJagrs> ok. let's get calm
<Vee2d2> heh
<KeithJagrs> count to 10
<ajmitch> calm? this is veyr calm
<jamest> extremely
<jcater> KeithJagrs: don't mind us
<jcater> this is calm :)
<KeithJagrs> take deep breaths
<ajmitch> this is boring-calm
<KeithJagrs> heheh
<revDeke> jcater: i will shut up i thought the switched from qtopia to the mpl 
<ajmitch> The freely downloadable version of Qtopia is provided with no support and no warranty. It is provided under the GNU General Public License, GPL. It may only be used in conjunction with the GPL version of Qt/Embedded.
Action: revDeke is leary of trolltech but no more or less than ximian
<revDeke> i will still support gnome to a degree until the fsf agrees to dump them in favor of kde
<revDeke> which hopefully will happen if ximian continues to insist no doing everything as lgpl
Action: revDeke really has a problem with that
<revDeke> gnome-db for example was gpl (still might be)
<revDeke> and miguel was asking them to make it lgpl
<revDeke> i was very against this and told rms so
<revDeke> which erupted some war of words
<ajmitch> or as they get more into bsd-like & proprietary stuff
<revDeke> ajmitch: i dont care if they do prop stuff per say (what they do for them is their own deal)
<ajmitch> as they seem to like doing now
<revDeke> its the 'tainted' crap i dont like
<revDeke> either write free software or prop software
<revDeke> dont mix crap (imho)
<ajmitch> iirc parts of mono are x11-licensed
<ajmitch> and you know that they're going to push for some gnome stuff to use mono
<revDeke> also in defense of the SAP-DB question
<Vee2d2> heh
<Vee2d2> erp
<revDeke> (barring my prior ignorance of qt relicense)
<revDeke> the main reason for excitement was fact that postgres is not exactly under a great license (for those of us that really want all gpl software)
<psu> "more joy in heaven over one sinner repenteth" == big company "gets" GPL
<revDeke> and until then the only thing resembling an RDBMS that was under the GPL was MySQL
<jcater> revDeke: I understand that
<jcater> just my big frustration'
<jcater> is that I didn't see a difference in trolltech doing it vs sap
<jcater> :)
Action: revDeke puts the emphasis, that I dont really 'trust' SAP anymore or less than any other company writing GPL software that also writes non free equivalents
<KeithJagrs> what about Firebird
<revDeke> i.e. trolltech, sap, ximian all scare me
<revDeke> is firebird gpl?
<revDeke> i thought it was under the interbase public licnese or something?
<KeithJagrs> hmmm
<jcater> http://firebird.sourceforge.net/index.php?op=doc&id=ipl
<KeithJagrs> I think you're right
<jcater> InterBase Public License
<KeithJagrs> something like that
<revDeke> jcater: there is no difference.. my ignorance was in that i wasnt aware that qt was gpl dual license i thought it was mpl dual licensed
<jcater> revDeke: yeah, I get that now
<jcater> I thought you knew it was GPL
<jcater> which was really throwing me for a loop
<revDeke> i think that confusion was sparked by fact that richard says qpl and npl (netscape public license) have similar bad clause
<revDeke> and to use the mpl instead (or something)
<revDeke> so for some reason i must have equated that to trolltech going from to qpl to mpl
Action: revDeke in some ways would love fsf to tell ximian (gnome) to f off
<revDeke> and dopt kde
<jbailey> Woot!  We rattified Kyoto!
<KeithJagrs> jbailey: really??
<KeithJagrs> are you reading news? or something?
<jbailey> www.globeandmail.com
<jbailey> Why the rest of you should come to Canada:
<jbailey> http://www.nationalpost.ca/home/story.html?id={F52FEFCF-AF1E-4204-9E2B-AB2A54A20E0F}
<KeithJagrs> cnn.com doesnt mention it
<KeithJagrs> Uh. I though you were in the US
<revDeke> i am happy to see debian support of kde get better and better
<KeithJagrs> jbailey: where in Canada are you located?
<jbailey> Toronto.
<jbailey> Funny.  You'll be allowed to carry about an ounce of pot. =)
<Vee2d2> oh wow.. that's not just for medical use?
Nick change: SachaZzz -> SachaS
<KeithJagrs> hehe
<Vee2d2> the canadian tourism income should see a bump next year
<Vee2d2> s/income/industry
<jbailey> I love this.  In the US you'd never see
<jbailey> "Everyboyd should know that 30 grams equals anywhere from 40 to 60 joints"
<jbailey> From the *conservatives* in the house.
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<KeithJagrs> hehe
<siesel> hi all
<revDeke> jcater: its all relative
<revDeke> for example
<revDeke> they teach you here
<KeithJagrs> are you allowed to sow weed too?
<revDeke> that 12oz beer = 8oz glass wine = 2oz hard alochol shot (or somethign like that)
<jbailey> sow?
<jbailey> Like grow?
<revDeke> of course they tell you this so they can give you a blood alcohol gauge for drunk driving
<jbailey> YEs, that's the point is this is for personal growing.
<KeithJagrs> yeah
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<revDeke> so if they made 'weed' legal i could see
<ajmitch> hi Iso
<Isomer> hi
<Isomer> you don't have .rpm's?
<KeithJagrs> hmm
<KeithJagrs> derek?
<revDeke> 2 4ft graffix bong hits = 10 tokes 6in pipe = 1 joint
<ajmitch> why would anyone use rpms? :)
<KeithJagrs> do you know of any gnue implementations in PDAs?
<revDeke> thusly if you have more than 3 of those in a 2 hour period you shouldnt drive ;)
<Isomer> ajmitch: since most commercial people using Linux are using redhat?
Action: ajmitch shudders
<Isomer> shrug
<Isomer> redhats good for that
<revDeke> Isomer: i think the new gnue mentality is this
<Isomer> people don't install software
<Vee2d2> that's awesome.. =)
<revDeke> if you want gnue great do what you need
<revDeke> if you want to have a gnue consultant all the better, listen to their advice and the first thing you should do is switch to debian ;)
<ajmitch> Isomer: i don't know of anyone who's volunteered to do rh packages
<Isomer> revDeke: heh yah
<revDeke> actually look on the lists
<revDeke> someone sent some i think
<Isomer> ajmitch: I guess I should contribute something :)
<revDeke> if not they sent them to me and i have been with crappy net connection so long i havent fought to publish them
<ajmitch> yay!
Action: revDeke thought they went to the list
<KeithJagrs> I need advice.   Are there experiences in setting GNUe clients in PDAs?
<Isomer> remind me this evening before I go home
<Isomer> and I'll do up some .spec files
<Isomer> hmm, no MD5SUM, .asc or .sig files either :)
<KeithJagrs> I will asume not
<Isomer> hmm
<ajmitch> Isomer: still trying to get derek to get a decent gpg key ;)
<Isomer> KeithJagrs: what kind of pda's? palms?
<KeithJagrs> I am making a propolsal for  car dealer
<KeithJagrs> yeah
<ajmitch> jcater or jamest might be able to sign releases
<KeithJagrs> Palms
<Isomer> theres a python interpreter for palms I think
<Isomer> but I don't think that there is a GUI layout for them yet, you might have to code that
Action: jamest isn't putting his sig on this stuff, they might think I'm responsible for the mess
<jcater> sign releases?
<KeithJagrs> another option would be via HTML
<KeithJagrs> or WML
<jamest> with our gpg key
<jcater> oh
<jcater> gotcha
<jcater> yeah, one of us could do that
<jcater> I guess
<ajmitch> it's a suggested good practice
<Isomer> jcater: after recent swaps of openssl/tcpdump etc, I've got a script that I use to d/l things that automatically verifies MD5SUM and gpg signatures
<revDeke> i STRONGLY urge you to look into that
<revDeke> Isomer: distutils should be capable of creating rpms
<revDeke> as then we could easily maintian/create them
<revDeke> going forward
<revDeke> KeithJagrs: i dont know if gnue will ever work on a palm pilot
<revDeke> they are severely underpowered for gnue type applications
<KeithJagrs> I was thinking the same
<revDeke> i would expect the gnue core team target for PDAs will be
<KeithJagrs> but It can be used as a web client
<revDeke> Sharp Zaurus and iPAQ
<revDeke> not to say someone else couldnt make a palm or that palmOS may improve
<memmett> or an ssh client when the curses interface matures
Action: revDeke thinks you could make gnue apps that worked on it, but they would liekly be so severely limited it wouldnt be worth using 
<KeithJagrs> I see. Well it doesnt have to be Palms in this case
Action: revDeke doesnt know how you browse the web with a palm
<Isomer> hmm
<Isomer> I don't think palm pilots have much in the way of ODBC 
<KeithJagrs> Since we can recomend the client to buy the devices
Action: revDeke hasnt seen anything impressive in a palm that would make me jump to make a gnue client for it
<Isomer> nor do they run postgres
<jbailey> revDeke: Web interface for PDAs.
<revDeke> however iPAQ and Zaurus show extreme promise
<revDeke> Isomer: they need not run postgres
<jbailey> Otherwise you're talking writing DB drivers for them
<revDeke> they just use 802.11b wireless or net to talk to db
<revDeke> i KNOW iPAQ will about run gnue as it sits
<revDeke> i hope to be in position to prove it after Xmas :)
<revDeke> as virtually anything available in debian is available to iPAQ
<revDeke> zuarus would be a stronger stretch as we would likely need a qtopia client
<revDeke> for forms
<KeithJagrs> good
Action: revDeke cant speak for everyone, but with limited resources i see the only current PDA
<revDeke> s worthy of devoting time and energy to at this point are iPAQ and Zaurus
<revDeke> thats just me though
<KeithJagrs> Mys sister have an iPAQ, I understand you cannot erase win CE from it. It is in the ROM memory
<jcater> debian runs on the newer iPAQs iirc
<jcater> well
<KeithJagrs> yeah. I have read about it 
<jcater> anyone who wants to dropship me an iPAQ
<KeithJagrs> never tried though
<jcater> I'll get a GNUe driver working for them
<jcater> :)
<KeithJagrs> ;)
<jcater> or a Zaurus
Action: jcater is only halfway joking btw
<KeithJagrs> ;)
<jcater> ya never know when it might be cost effective for a consulting job
<jcater> of course, if someone wants GNUe running on an AS/400
<jcater> I'll take one of those too
<jcater> wife might get upset though
<jcater> as I think we'd have to keep it in the living room
<KeithJagrs> hehe
<KeithJagrs> you can put the tv set on top of it
<siesel> you won't need an radiator anymore
<KeithJagrs> right
<siesel> quite like the old PDP11 times ;)
<jbailey> jcater: My wife has already told me I can't have more computers at home.
<jbailey> I have an alpha and a mips box coming for glibc testing. =)
<jbailey> (this is on top of the Hurd-i386 and sparc boxes I have under my desk at work)
<Vee2d2> I regret not wiring this room on it's own circuit with a larger than usual breaker
<Vee2d2> Something to keep in mind for the next house, I say.
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<revDeke> gack
<revDeke> mail hosed for too long
<revDeke> anyone from brazil using gnue?
<jcater> uh, oh
<jcater> Package        : gtetrinet
<jcater> Problem type   : buffer overflow
<jcater> Debian-specific: no
<jcater> Steve Kemp and James Antill found several buffer overflows in the
<jcater> gtetrinet (a multiplayer tetris-like game) package as shipped in
<jcater> Debian GNU/Linux 3.0, which could be abused by a malicious server.
<jcater> This has been fixed in upstream version 0.4.4 and release
<jcater> 0.4.1-9woody1.1 of the Debian package.
<jcater> chillywilly: are you running a malicious server?
Action: jcater now knows why chilly encourages everyone to play on gandalph
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<KeithJagrs> 0.4.4? what about 0.4.3?
<ajmitch> KeithJagrs: 0.4.3 is old news
<KeithJagrs> ??
<ajmitch> it was released in october
<ajmitch> we are talking about gtetrinet )
<ajmitch> :)
<KeithJagrs> heheh
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<KeithJagrs> :$
<KeithJagrs> gotta go
<KeithJagrs> see ya!
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<Mr_You> man we've been chattin it up lately on the freebsd-cluster mailing list.. hehe.. usually dead 
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<jcater> Vee2d2: what kind of discount can you get us on embroidered GNUe Polos? :-)
<Vee2d2> ack.. this new xchat isnt being nice!
<Vee2d2> =)
<Vee2d2> jcater: real good ones.. 
<Mr_You> bad xchat bad!
<Mr_You> hehe haven't had the pleasure
<Mr_You> oops
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<jcater> http://www.kde-look.org/content/preview.php?file=4294-3.jpg
<jcater> for you matrix fans
<jbailey> What's with those legs?
<ajmitch> it's a vegan penguin & has scrawny legs? :)
<jcater> rofl
<jbailey> Isn't there a far side comic about that?
<jbailey> frog yellow to its captop "skinny legs!  I've got skinny legs!"
<jbailey> s/yellow/yelling/
<jamest> joine #python
<jamest> whoops :)
<jcater> is that the french spelling?
<jbailey> joîné.
<jbailey> It's not real French unless there's gratuitous accents. ;)
<jamest> http://sourceforge.net/projects/bicyclerepair/
<jamest> may be interesting
<SachaS> jamest http://www.refactoring.com is the refactoring book by Martin Fowler page
<siesel> jamest: how can I expose an object to the trigger name space?
<jamest> what kind of object?
<siesel> like a field in integrator
<siesel> does reports already has a working trigger namespace?
<siesel>  /has/have/ ?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> anything that is defined in GFParser w/ a name should automatically get exposed via that name
<jamest> IIRC
<jbailey> SachaS: refactoring is a lovely book.
<siesel> hmmm. so it isn't necessary to set the value "self._triggerGlobal" to 1?
<jamest> that IIRC sets that object to the global namespace
<jamest> you would not want to set everything to that
<jamest> or you'd essentially have a flat namespace :)
<jamest> btw - this is all from my memory which isn't the best :)
<SachaS> jbailey: i guess you have it. is it applicable for "any" oo, procedural, scripting programming language?
<jbailey> OO, but the examples are all in Java, so having a basic knowledge of that is useful,.
<SachaS> ok
<SachaS> jbaily as i realised the other day ruby, and python i guess, are dynamically typed compared to statically typed java .......
<SachaS> so still have to get grips with dynamically types languages
<jbailey> Yeah.
<siesel> jamest: I dunno why, but I can get a namespace with only the top object registered and  that top object doesn't have children :/
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<chillywilly> heheh, drastically increased the occurance of segfaults...that's funny
<jamest> someone care to tell me how to install gnome2 on woody?
<revDeke> first download jre2 from java.sun.com
<jamest> actually all I eant is gtk2
<jamest> want
<revDeke> then install swing and ejb
<jamest> yeah, go on
Action: jamest scribbles down notes
<revDeke> and if you have any hair left and arent ready to kill someone
<jamest> ....beat derek next time we meet
<revDeke> we know you are ready for the hoops of gnome2 on woody
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> gnome2 on woody won't get me what I need
<jamest> python2.2-gtk2 is required
<jamest> and not in woody or testing
<jamest> is sid even remotely usable?
<revDeke> and wife on one machine
<revDeke> and if i can 'reasonably' use it
<revDeke> thats pretty stable :)
Action: Vee2d2 has been using it since the get-go
<jamest> if I do this upgrade now
<revDeke> if you need a gtk2 tester i can do so
<revDeke> dont upgrade now
<jamest> and it eats my machine
<revDeke> i think a gnome dependency is busted
<jamest> can I have your addresses
<revDeke> as jcater tried this am
<jamest> i don't care about gnome
<jamest> only gtk2
<revDeke> ah
<revDeke> then you might be ok
<jamest> revDeke: you're running forms under gtk2?
<ajmitch> hmm
<ajmitch> i like forms & gtk2 :)
Action: jamest has decided he doesn't have the balls to update to sid
<jamest> ajmitch: you're working on gtk2 driver?
<jamest> right?
<ajmitch> once you finish breaking things, i'll touch it
<jamest> dude
<jamest> i'm trying to figure out what we need
<jamest> and cleaning
<ajmitch> right
<jamest> care to update and see if I broke anything in gtk2
<ajmitch> any chance of getting a grid view? ;)
<jamest> i shouldn't have 
<ajmitch> (note, not a grid widget, but like access' datasheet view)
<ajmitch> one moment
<jamest> that's a definate maybe
Nick change: SachaS -> Sacha_Uni
<ajmitch> right
<ajmitch> next step after that would be being able to use it as a forms widget, showing raw records
<revDeke> i run forms on gtk2 sometimes
<revDeke> it has a lot of polish left to do
<revDeke> i tried to submit a patch but gtk is broked :)
<revDeke> i.e. the functions in the manual dont work as advertised
<revDeke> aj confirmed this :)
<jamest> ajmitch: how deep into the UI stuff are you as far as understanding it?
<ajmitch> jamest: scratching the surface :)
<jamest> ok
<revDeke> jamest : the worst park (imho) is the gtk stuff
<ajmitch> looks like i have to remove some local changes
<revDeke> i.e. the forms logic is pretty straight forward
<ajmitch> hmm, perhaps not
<revDeke> its finding good documentation on pygtk that is the bitch
<ajmitch> DB000:   File "/usr/local/src/cvs/gnue/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/forms/uidrivers/gtk2/UIdriver.py", line 1043, in _createWidget
<ajmitch> DB000:     self.choices = object.allowedValues()[1]
<ajmitch> DB000: AttributeError: GFEntry instance has no attribute 'allowedValues'
<revDeke> you know what you need to do and where in the code
<ajmitch> afaik i'm using a driver with no changes in that area
<revDeke> but you cant find 'corresponding' ways to do it in gtk
<revDeke> or at least thats what i was seeing
<jamest> ajmitch: hang on
<jamest> curses had the same issue
<revDeke> i can test and clean up some as well but not today
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<jamest>  self.choices = object._field.allowedValues()[1]
<jamest> try that
<jamest> thats a bug from the layout changes
<ajmitch> ok
<jamest> that work?
<ajmitch> hmm, this looks like arse
<ajmitch> muahaha
<ajmitch> gnome-panel just segfaulted :)
<jamest> ooooooo
<jamest> in GFClient.py set checkForDerek = 0
<ajmitch> the buttons aren't showing up, btw
<jamest> our derek code isn't properly disabling on non-derek users
<jamest> ajmitch: is this new?
<jamest> or has this been since the layout changes?
<ajmitch> dunno
<ajmitch> they weren't on the form i was using previously :)
<ajmitch> also, the form doesn't fit to the right width
<ajmitch> it's only as wide at the toolbar
<jamest> ajmitch: is this new?
<jamest> or has this been since the layout changes?
<jamest> better yet:
<jamest> while ircUsername == ajmitch:
<ajmitch> i'll have to try & get a 0.4.x forms with gtk2 driver working somewhere
<jamest>   print " is this new? \nor has this been since the layout changes?"
<ajmitch> heh
<jamest> can you commit that gtk2 fix or do i need to
<jamest> my main concern now is i didn't break it completely 
<ajmitch> you can
<ajmitch> it's not broken completely, i can look at the remaining bugs 
<ajmitch> derek's not silly enough to give me cvs access ;)
<jamest> :)
Action: ajmitch will try out gtk2 in wine in a min...
<ajmitch> once python downloads
<Vee2d2> GNUe Common Version 0.4.1.99
<Vee2d2> Error: No database driver found for provider type 'psycopg'
<Vee2d2> /usr/lib/gnue/lib/python/gnue/common/dbdrivers/psycopg
<Vee2d2> where is it I need to specify that's where it is?
<ajmitch> got the corresponding library for python?
<Vee2d2> hmm.. perhaps not.. =)
<Vee2d2> thanx
<Vee2d2> hmm.. sounds like baby needs some luvin.. or a diaper.. bbl
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<KeithJagrs> hello
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<KeithJagrs> question: Given that "Application Server was designed to remove application logic from the clients", does this mean that when you use App Server the File size of the installation on the clients can be smaller than when you dont use app server?
<jcater> by a very trivial amount, possibly
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<KeithJagrs> well, you dont have to install Designer on the clients. thats for sure. what else?
<jbailey> I suspect that it might be true, but that the glue logic to make the app talk to appserver would negate the difference.
<jbailey> You also don't need to install reports on most clients.
<jamest> minial client install is common and forms
<jamest> however much of our logic is in common 
<jamest> so it's probably the biggest gnue package we have anyway
Action: jamest hasn't looked in a while
<jbailey> I think that's the case from what I remember.
<KeithJagrs> i see
<KeithJagrs> what about integrator?
<KeithJagrs> would it be installed on the server or the client
<jbailey> Doesn't integrator help you port databases?
<KeithJagrs> oops
<KeithJagrs> so it is only for development then
<jbailey> I haven't touched intergrator at all yet, so I dunno.
<KeithJagrs> neither I
<jamest> neither have i :)
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<jbailey> jamest:  Flee!  Run!
<jbailey> MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHH!
<derek> ajmitch: i have gtk2 running against 0.4.2 and 0.4.3
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<ajmitch> gah
<jbailey> gtk2?
<ajmitch> no, wine is giving me issues
<jbailey> Has it got all of the widgets now?
<ajmitch> dunno, but it caused something bad to happen
<KeithJagrs> from the pdf brochure:
<KeithJagrs> "Once completed, Application Server will work as an integrated backend for Forms and Reports.
<KeithJagrs> However, as part of GNUe’s modular framework, Application Server does not require any other
<KeithJagrs> GNUe tools to function and can simply expose business logic via CORBA or XML-RPC, etc."
<derek> KeithJagrs: ?
<jbailey> derek: He's reading the web site again.  Don't we have apolicy that dissalows that?
<KeithJagrs> derek: i was asking if by using App server
<KeithJagrs> the file size of the gnue installation on the client would be smaller than usual
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<derek> not necessarily
<derek> a well designed 2 tier app
<derek> would have forms (.gfds) installed on the server
<derek> and the 'client' install of forms is no bigger or smaller if you use appserver
<derek> you could say more 'processing' happens on the server
<derek> but deployment wise it should be the same if you do efficiently in 2 tier
<derek> but then again a nice ltsp setup would solve the 'single' machine doing all the processing problem as well
<ajmitch> bbias
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<KeithJagrs> certainly
Action: drochaid is away: steeling Filberts bed moose >:)
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<jcater> drochaid: I don't want to know what that means
<drochaid> lol
<drochaid> from another chan on another network jcater :)
<drochaid> but I'll tell you anyway sometime ... if I want to frighten you >:)
Action: jbailey is away: dinner.
<KeithJagrs> nite all
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Action: jbailey is back (gone 00:17:30)
<jcater> derek: you here?
Action: jcater is adding GFDL notice/appendix to the Dev Guide
<jcater> they just released GFDL 1.2 last month
<jcater> have you read it and are we ok with their changes?
<jbailey> If I can offer an opinion.
<jcater> fire away
<jcater> I'd ask in private if I didn't want opinions :)
<jcater> well
<jcater> let me rephrase that
<jbailey> Avoid unnecesarry invariant sections.  You need one only, which is the license itself.
<jcater> if I wasn't receptive
<jcater> eh?
<jcater> define invariant
<jbailey> Invariant sections allow non-technical sections to be unchanging.
<jcater> ah
<jbailey> So if there's a section in your document that's not relating the the primary topic, say a philosophy section, you can mark it as invariant.
Action: jcater sees no need for anything like that in the Dev Guide
<jbailey> The problem is that a document with invariant sections is likely to be marked as non-Free.
<jbailey> The license itself needs to be invariant for obvious reasons. =)
<jcater> as big a fan as I am of the GPL
<jcater> I'm honestly not sure how much I like the GFDL
<jbailey> The problem is that the GPL doesn't apply well to software.
<jbailey> err.
<jbailey> documentation
<jcater> yeah, I know
<jcater> but I am not personally that satisfied with their documentation solution
<jbailey> It's just not out and out putrid like GFDL 1
<jbailey> =)
<jcater> :)
<jcater> what a waste
<jcater> that damn thing added 7 or so pages to my document
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<jcater> hmmm
<jcater> guess he's not here :-/
<jcater> jbailey: have you read the license?
<jcater> If you have Invariant Sections, Front-Cover Texts and Back-Cover Texts,
<jcater> replace the "with...Texts." line with this:
<jcater>     with the Invariant Sections being LIST THEIR TITLES, with the
<jcater>     Front-Cover Texts being LIST, and with the Back-Cover Texts being LIST.
<jcater> does that mean I need to explicitly identify the GFDL as being invariant?
<jbailey> I think so, yes.
<jbailey> But that's similar to the COPYING file ina GNU package.
<jbailey> That file itself is not under the GPL.
<jbailey> And IIRC, the GPL specifically identifies that the the license information cannot be changed.
<jbailey> The problem with a document is that how you want to present that license information may vary from text to text.  So instead of saying how it should be presented, it is simply one of the invariant sections.
<jcater> why didn't they include that in their example copyright notice :-/
<jcater> silly people
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> I **really** don't like the ", or any later version" clauses in the GPL and GFDL copyright notices
<jcater> that just scares me 
<jcater> I understand *why* it's there
<jcater> but I just hate the thought of putting software under a license I haven't read
<jbailey> I don't put that in there on stuff under my own copyright.
<jbailey> rather, where I hold the copyright.
<jbailey> I always specify "version 2 of the GPL" or whatnot.
<jbailey> But since the FSF writes the GPL and will pretty much declare that the software is available under the future version... ;)
<Mr_You> I also remove the "any later version"
<Mr_You> it makes sense if you put code out there and drop support..
<Mr_You>  /development
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<chillywilly> I think putting the any later verstion sentence shows that you trust the FSF and what they are trying to do...afteral if we can't trust THEM who can we trust? They founded and are backing the Free Software Movement...if they go to hell then we are probably up the proverbial creek anyway
<jcater> I trust myself
<jcater> :-)
<chillywilly> I'll levae that one alone
<jcater> I trust my doctor too
<jcater> btu I don
Action: chillywilly doesn't think jcater's price is very high...a box of kripy kremes isn't that much ;)
<jcater> but I don't blindly fill and start taking prescriptions without reading them
<jcater> chillywilly: well, that is true
<jcater> just hope M$ doesn't come knocking at my door with a box of KK
<jcater> we'd all be in trouble
<jbailey> I read that as a box of KKK.
<jcater> "Yes, .NET is my friend... Shared Source is Good"
<jbailey> I was wondering if that was like sardines.
<chillywilly> that's why we need to continually supply you with them
<jbailey> But... really nasty tasting.
<jcater> jbailey: well, I wouldn't want a box of those
<jcater> we have plenty of those around here already :)
<jbailey> oh wait.
<jbailey> sardenes are already really nasty nasting.
<chillywilly> the FSF "prescribes" the GPL for our software health, therefre like your physician you can trust them ;)
<chillywilly> hehe
<jcater> but didn't I just say I don't blindly trust my physician?
<chillywilly> nope
<chillywilly> you said you don't blindly take prescriptions
<jcater> well
<jcater> that implies the other
<chillywilly> anyway, it doesn't matter if you specify a version
<chillywilly> imho
<chillywilly> that's trivial
<chillywilly> it'd be like arguing about a name...oh...wait... ;)
<jcater> ?
<chillywilly> gess subtlety is my strong suit
<chillywilly> guess
<chillywilly> the name of an OS ;)
<jcater> lol
<chillywilly> are you with me now?
<jcater> otay
<jcater> I gots ya, bro
<chillywilly> fosheezy
<chillywilly> and maybe even fo' sheezy
Action: chillywilly adds alias em='emacs -nw' <-- I like this :)
<Vee2d2> should the gnue_sb forms work with .4.1.99?
<chillywilly> ask derek ;)
<jcater> they should
<Vee2d2> hmm.. 
<Vee2d2> ------------------------------------------------------------
<Vee2d2> Error: Error while communicating with datasource.
<Vee2d2>        ERROR:  current transaction is aborted, queries ignored until end of transaction block
<Vee2d2> SELECT count(*) FROM item_category WHERE ((1 = 0))
<Vee2d2> ------------------------------------------------------------
<jcater> but you'll have to ask derek
<chillywilly> jcater: you da man
<jcater> uggh
<jcater> bugger
<jcater> that doesn't look pleasant
<jcater> postgresql?
<Vee2d2> should I have a form installed from the debs that I could test my setup with?
<Vee2d2> yes
<jcater> um
<jcater> I'm not sure if sample forms were included with the debs or not
<jcater> I don't think they were
<jcater> I would grab the forms source tarball and grab the samples/ stuff
<jcater> in 0.5.0, we are moving to having a separate samples "product" (for lack of a better word)
<jbailey> If the samples aren't in the debs, please file a bug.
<Vee2d2> they would have the .gfd extension?
<jbailey> Preferably within the next 12 hours, since that's likely when I'll update the debs.
<jbailey> (esp if Derek produces be 0.4.3)
<jbailey> Yes, and they should be in /usr/share/doc/gnue-forms-wx...
<jbailey> I can't remember the package name. =)
<jbailey> I should fix that too, so that all the docs are under /usr/share/doc/gnue-forms
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<jbailey> pre-bedtime tetrinet game, anyone?
<jbailey> What's this?
<jbailey> Noone for a midnight tetrinet match
<jbailey> ?
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<chillywilly> darn
<chillywilly> I would've played
<jcater> sorry
<jcater> you're too slow
<jcater> just like in tetrinet!
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<chillywilly> jcater: yea right
<chillywilly> jcater: I can take you any day
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<Vee2d2> ok, so something seems amiss with my postgresql / python setup I guess.. 
<Vee2d2> You can get a file of zipcodes in a format readable by 
<Vee2d2> postgres from goats.gnue.org/~jamest/zipcodes.gz
<Vee2d2> that's 404'ing now.. 
<jcater> wow
<jcater> where'd you read that?
<jcater> that url is really old
<Vee2d2> GNUe-Forms-0.4.2/samples/location> cat README 
<jcater> bugger
<jcater> jamest: you here?
<jcater> we have a guy actually reading our stuff here
<jamest> yes
<jamest> what?
<jcater>  /msg jamest you want to take him out back and deal with him
<jamest> why?
<jcater>  /msg jamest or should I?
<jamest> you can
<jamest> i'm too tired
<jamest> how much crappier are we going to have to make the documentation before people will just give up
--- Wed Dec 11 2002