ummm Action: ajmitch passes on that one ;) ok if I start with a file foo.java then I javac foo.java why do i end up with foo$1.class foo$2.class foo$3.class yada, yada foo$33.class 33 classes are described in foo.java? 1 jamest: anonimous inner classes? http://saloon.javaranch.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=000777 ra3vat: may be, thanks jcater (~jcater@cpe-066-061-083-220.midsouth.rr.com) left irc: "g'nite" Nick change: minddog[zz] -> minddog derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. damn morning derek late nite ? hi Vee2d2 Action: derek is aghast at the heresy that jamest is indulging in.... you JAVA loving phreak.... mmmm, javav i wub java too! java java! [00:51] Last message repeated 1 time(s). let s rewrite gnue in Java! eeek! that would be soooooo awesome Action: Barbicane resumes normal lurker mode. HEH we could even get one of those cool J2EE licenses Action: ajmitch is talking with some people who believe that because GNU/Linux is free software, and the code available, then it must be far less secure Action: chillywilly rolls his eyes erm... yea those "linux a rather fallacious argument, i must say :) " viruses are getting out of hand ajmitch: ask 'em which is more secure - does GNU *or* linux have a server? (and khttp does not count) a) a house with the key hidden under the mat no, it's that when 'linux gets bigger', more 'hackers' will target it :) b) a house with a large, visible, external lock Barbicane: now what do you mean by that? Barbicane: trying to make a thinly veiled jab at the GNU/Linux name? :) Barbicane is right - most of the "servers" are not either part of the linux kernel just general hyperbolist precision of project definition :) or the GNU utilities Of course, you can *write* servers in elisp for emacs if you want to but that's a different matter... psuZZZZ: the definition of the GNU OS also includes things not written by GNU people :) Barbicane: then there's the Hurd servers ;) hmm sounds like "embrace and extend" to me I think it should be relabled 'software by the joint GNU/Linux cabal' :) Nick change: psuZZZZ -> psu or "crazy BSD biotches not allowed" hey! wait a minute... heheh I am an avid GNU/FreeBSD user :) those BSD zealots... :) yea well... Action: ajmitch doesn't recall ever using a BSD OS you are missing out... perhaps a BSD derivative, like one of those proprietary ones :) I feel so deprived eek! you knw what kills me is the resident BSD guy that hangs out on our LUG list he constantly talks about "Linux" forks er? yeah, how can we make money if we can exploit other people's work? but afaik BSD has forked so many damned times it isn't funny tell him to fork off. lol you know you want to. BSd forks are secret... that is the only difference. what Linux forks? didn't know there were any. secrecy by obscurity ;) I have in so many words Mr_You: all the "distributions" are forks apparently ;) Action: ajmitch pulls up the age-old "*BSD is dying" post... ;) *every* massive project has atleast psuedo forks. Linux is not an OS doh! hehe ajmitch: whatcha tsalkin about? chillywilly: traditional fare on slashdot but ac series MontaVista etc.. could be considered forks. of course forks can be good forks are healthy... Action: Barbicane starts singing 'The Cathedral and The Bazarre' in 3 part harmony but it is so confsing I need someone to hold my hand in order to knwo which " linux" fork to use even the papo folk had a separate cvs tree for awhile - but that wasn't such a good thing :) Action: chillywilly starts singin the Free Software song iirc jamest merged in via libre changes pre-0.4.2 Action: Barbicane looks at his forked up kernel tree.. i don't think the Hurd has forked as such :) ajmitch: I'm still working on that jamest: ok except that hurd itself is a fork... Barbicane: fork of what? a fork of what? ajmitch: Mach? nah afaict it is damn unique the Hurd sits atop of Mach and soon, hopefully, atop L4 mach had other stuff sitting atop it... Mach is not maintained originality does not work the first time... tell me where I can find the latest release of the REAl Mach? sheesh... I am being flipant here. :) Mach sucks ;P agreed :) Barbicane: you are something... well, if you want to be like that, Windows XP is a fork of QDOS flipant may not cover it fully and MacOS is a fork of Xerox hmm that is what the doctor said... and everything is a fork of Turing's Universal Machine or Babbage's Difference No 2 ENgine Linux is a fork of Minix? ;) everything is a fork, that is not a complete failure. GNUe is a fork of SAP? ok all, bbl hehe nah.. GNUe would be a fork of a good accounting book :) python is a fork od Java? abc actually... a/od/of/ fork is a fork of knife? my forking knife! hehe man is a fork of chimpanzees scotty was little and was saying something about his fork and knife wonder if that makes chimps the "stable" branch... and it sounded like he was saying forking knife Action: Barbicane resists urge to cry the battle cry of flatware... everyone was laughing their arse off "my forking knife!" [01:09] Last message repeated 1 time(s). hmmm, I don't want to go to work tomorrow heh, "somewhere on the planet" how descriptive er? heh they just added a new server to freenode located "somwhere on the planet" Action: psu is working on a project at work at the moment when the final phase has an official implementation date of "later" to be fair, it depends how quickly we resolve problems with first phase if it is done later than can it ever be late? Action: Barbicane wonders off toward sleep I suppose sleep is inevitable but maybe if I stay up late enough I won't have to go to work... yea right g'night freaks ;) chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) left irc: "Free Your Enterprise! - http://www.gnuenterprise.org" damn, just missed him I know he was so keen to try out the M$ Windows .exes now up and on the website for 0.4.3 jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-71-168-128.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) left #gnuenterprise. Action: derek is away: sleep reinhard (~reinhard@M692P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("probability of witty sign off before 8 a.m. : 0.02"). btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. good morning good morning anyone got some links to gtk# and x# Jens2 (AC14C580@nat-wohnheime.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de) joined #gnuenterprise. Hi! jemand da? Jens2 (AC14C580@nat-wohnheime.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de) left irc: Client Quit johannes_ (~johannes@M701P026.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) left irc: ninja (~rossg@ip-3.nb326.ipstar.cscoms.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: minddog -> minddog[out] dsmith (dsmith@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1c-203.clvhoh.adelphia.net) joined #gnuenterprise. mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-72-76.kc.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) mdean (~mdean@mkc-65-28-72-76.kc.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. 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Arturas (~arturas@gsk.vtu.lt) left irc: "Bye :)" revDeke (www-data@alt1.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. grib: you asked other day about credit report interfaces Action: revDeke seems like i get all the fun stuff first too much EDI now sadly i can say i have dealt with credit bureaus WAY too much ColeMarcus (~ColeMarcu@p50805EAD.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. in fact, flood certification, title companies and credit bureaus i got more than my fill of when writing mortgage closing document software i had to interface with nearly every loan origination system on the planet ahh.. bet ya did all of which had credit bureau crap revDeke: are there any open implementations that talk to the big 3? roflmao you are funny sure you find them on the same site with openEDI ;) :) Action: revDeke apologizes for the sarcasm, but dealing with these companies is the pinnacle of bad technology how hard is it to get (a) info and (b) authorization for an independent implementation? i.e. they all have properatery formats and transports and do things in a horrible fashion generally you have to fork oodles of cash over to get specs and do testign and such Action: revDeke thinks the credit industry could have changed abit (i havent done it for about 5 years) in the sense there was most 'competition' there revDeke: any third parties you remember with purchasable implementations that are unix friendly? i.e. new up and coming credit agencies were trying to 'make a name for themselves' grib: if i remember correctly, dunn and bradstreet had some really good stuff but it was VERY expensive and was sucky to interface too and was not even close to unix so everybody is pure windoze? equifax i think might have been the one i kind of liked dealing with goody, cause equifax is the one I have to deal with :) Action: revDeke doesnt know if that is the company name or the product name it's the company iirc they were more 'flat file' passing oriented but at least i could read the files to deduce what i needed and not have to wade through tons of crap and i could write my own 'transport' mechanisms Action: revDeke is starting to have mortgage banking flashbacks im trying to remember the other one that was decent it was the 'preferred partner' of calyx point if you want to get into this (me doesnt know your needs) here is a good LIST of vendors http://www.calyxsoftware.com/lands/index.asp?type=2&cat=7 that digitally transmit credit reports revDeke: thanks Action: revDeke warns that list is likely more 'mortgage' biased, but generally someone who offers loan ratios offers basic credit reporting as well as they have to have the basic report in order to calculate the scores i still talk occassionally to the lead developer of calyx (though its been a while) i could ask him which he prefers to work with if you like (assuming i can find his email again) ;) revDeke: actually I have no choice -- it has to be equifax. I'm just trying to replace an existing system ah dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) left irc: "later.." V_laptop (~vin@66-169-136-41.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection V_laptop (~vin@66-169-136-41.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) joined #gnuenterprise. revDeke (www-data@alt1.libertydistribution.com) left irc: "CGI:IRC 0.5 (EOF)" jbailey (~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com) joined #gnuenterprise. revDeke (www-data@alt1.libertydistribution.com) joined #gnuenterprise. It's revDeke, the web server again! V_laptop (~vin@66-169-136-41.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) what is this: http://www.pythonware.com/products/pil/license.htm a BSD-like license? psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater: I suspect that the 'obtaining' clause is unenforcable. Since it's unlikely that a person can get the license without getting the software. It otherwise seems BSDish. There doesn't appear to be anything in here that's GPL incompatible. ok, that's what I thought wanted a second opinion Well. I think you should be vegan. Good enough? well, you know what they say about opinions ;) Actually, I don't think I do... =) I know what they say about 'assume'. Opinions are like butt-holes everyone has one and they usually stink *lol* You know that the anal cavity is the second fastest non-invasive way of getting something to the blood stream? (Non invasive, like needles or punctering you in some way) weird didn't know that but would believe it I need to figure out what to do on this HTML UI. I think I would be struck by lightning if I did the layout the same way that phpForms does. fixe (adam@dsl093-081-253.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) V_laptop (~vin@66-169-136-41.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hate to be bearer of bad news but if you introduce ANYTHING into my blood stream via my anus im gonna consider it 'invasive' regardless of what science wants to call it heh how is jan coming along with the jsclient? anyone know? jbailey: just my opinion but I would use the jsclient for screen writes/updates. but I've already mentioned this. revDeke: =) Mr_You: I haven't looked at jsForms. But I think anything needs to be integrated with gnue-forms. using jsforms for screen writes eliminates having to redo it in HTML also allows screen updates without reloading. jsForms will then have two builtin methods for connectivity: appserver via XMLRPC and webserver via CGI or you could make them seperate instead in one client. or one code base. dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) joined #gnuenterprise. I don't see the two being compatable in the same client either you use the gnue-forms backend or you don't in a client your gnue forms backend in this case is the CGI then you aren't reusing the gnue-forms backend javascript can't execute gnueforms code without it huh? that makes 0 sense jcater: I think the idea is that appserver would forward the request to forms. not sure we are on the same page there are potentially two clients, both are needed: javascript with XMLRPC or appserver and javascript with CGI or webserver.. grrrr javascript is only used to write and layout the screen after getting/putting results I see what ou mean. bottom line is, if you don't use javascript you'll hafta reload the screen for every request.. which is fine, but not very pleasant. so why not just use javascript for webbrowser layout. javascript XMLRPC client is also very light.. should require nothing but appserver.. I don't see much point in writing an HTML based XMLRPC client when it can all be done in javascript. I don't see much point in writing an XMLRPC client in js period but that's another story for ntier? absolutely it's a waste of resources thats the point of writing it. a diversion of goals then why even bother with an appserver? we should just expect users to connect to our database across the internet? that's very twisted logic very well that is what you are proposing. um I don't understand the 2tier vs ntier argument here. Action: jcater rereads everything I've ever said about html forms client it's not n-tier vs 2-tier AT ALL it's about diversion of code bases well.. is it a webserver vs appserver argument? you in effect are ditching gnue-forms for an appserver + javascript half-ass solution no I'm saying "ditch gnueforms" unless you can figure out how it can work in javascript. gah or better yet figure out how you can use javascript to eliminate reloading of screens/pages and use gnueforms for everything else.. I don't see it as a big deal. sigh this discussion has been hashed out many times and I have work to do going nowhere always. seems no one sees any benefit in javascript besides best I can tell jsforms is dead why? I see this happening.. someone will create an "HTML client" and eventually start plugging javascript into it. if we're lucky. as an option maybe whatever works works, but I like to do it right first tie. btami (~btami@3e70d73a.dialin.enternet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater: my entire point is this: javascript can eliminate screen reloads.. jcater: whatever extras are done beyond that are simply extras.. I see your point but that doesn't mean I agree with it jcater: but eliminate screen reloads makes a webclient FEEL like a real client. hi all but screen reloads has nothing to do with gnueforms you're going to have to do it in html anyways. Mr_You: no offense making a web client feel like a 'real er making a web client feel like a 'real client' is about like saying introducting things into ones blood stream via their anus is 'non invasive' ;) well, I'm serious. so was jeff so are we eliminate screen/webpage reloads eliminates a lot of the PITA aspects of using a web client. i guess for me the reason i can not get anywhere on this argument is if your requirement for a 'web' application is that it 'feel like a real application' why not just use a real application for example forms if fully 'internet' aware thin clients. yeah im talking thin client no need to install software, etc, etc, etc last i looked gnue-forms was smaller than about any webbrowser out there for those with a preoccupatino for putting the kitchen sink in a webbroswer so they can say 'zero administration' i will gladly make a mozilla plugin of gnue-forms I dunno, seems like a no brainer for a webclient to me. that doesn nothing but install forms and call it via plugin architecture just like flash and java do Action: revDeke is amazed that flash and java are 'zero admin thin clients' and 'web applications' just no one has given any decent reasons for not using javascript. well see ok you want one we take the opposite position Just that there should be a single integrated forms back end. we see no good reasons to require it because its silly to rewrite a forms client from scratch period end of story that is not happening Mr_You: have you looked at the code? if you follow thru with jsforms, that is EXACTLY what's happening Mr_You: With a javascript, don't you have to provide all the forms functionality rewritten in javascript? look at the code jsforms is a client written in javascript that is re implementing things that already exist because the current implementation is/was working toward a completely standalone client. if you dont call that 'rewriting a forms client from scratch' then we cant logically have this dicussion jbailey: how you gonna do that in HTML? Mr_You: cgi from gnuef. jbailey: you won't.. so you don't have to do it in javascript. UIhtml.py btw: im not against having javascript of sorts in an html client jbailey: like I've mentioned.. connect the cgi with javascript and you're doing the exact same thing. i am against rewriting forms client in javascript thats not the discussion! the current jsforms is a standalone client version.. Not all browsers support javascript. ? Action: revDeke fails to see the discussion then that is not what you want dsmith: that is jcater's point why it shouldnt be mandatory at all Action: revDeke is more middle of road the issue is: do we use HTML for screen writes, or javascript screen writes and background javascript CGI connectivity.. in thinking that supporting only 'modern' browsers woudl be acceptable which you are already doing in HTML all you are doing is eliminating your HTML screens with javascript screens.. the javascript code would then communicate with the CGI/gnueforms to update the forms, etc, etc. look at javascript as a blank canvas that allows you to communicate with the server in the background. that is reimplementing a lot of forms in javascript, dude and how is that not the same with HTML? jcater: a LOT im gonna say MOST you still gotta create tables, etc, etc.. no no no Mr_You: i cant say this enough have you looked at the code? I don't think you guys understand. look at the UI driver funny and UI driver system 'cause we know the code and I think we do understand just call it a hunch you don't understand how javascript can be implemented for no screen reloads.. if you are saying we dont understand what you wnat, that could be true its very simple. well, hell exactly what I'm saying. if you are saying we dont understand the code, im with jcater in thinking thats funny a flash client would also be "simple" from that standpoint hell, even a java one would be "simple" from there but it's still rewriting the client code base in another language what im saying is if you dont understand the underlying UI driver architecture its impossible to have this discussion short of you saying i want X and us telling you, sorry we have Y if you want X go write it yourself I'm saying that instead of writing a bunch of HTML output routines and creating a normal clunky web client, just add some javascript to enable background communicate and eliminate screen writes.. no big deal.. doesn't require rewriting forms client.. just involves using javascript instead of HTML output. it IS a big deal jcater: sorry no its not. sigh that's right I know shit about hte UIdrivers thanks for the reminder well.. since when does gnueforms contain HTML code? seriously sigh seriously dude forms doesn't contain html code3 nor WX code nor Win32 code nor curses code a UIdriver does we are arguing HTML vs javascript.. and not HTML in general or javascript in general.. I'm talking about raw code! jcater: exactly, Action: Mr_You dash don't work. let me try to explain VERY simply.. CGI (gnueforms) outputs SOMETHING... right now you are wanting to output straight HTML... why not integrate javascript to build forms from the CGI instead of HTML? either way you have to do one or the other.. because that ties you to javascript period end of story and one isn't any easier or harder than the other. jcater: I'm not even worried about the tie to Javascript jcater: whats the big deal about that? I think that unless appserver can defer all of the logic to gnue-forms somewhere, you lose. jcater: its tying you to HTML if you go the other route heh I think that there must be no business logic in the jsForms package. appserver needs to hand out "display, to the best of your ability, the following widgets" If it can provide hints on top of that, like "numeric only field" BTW, someone might want to look into the new XML encryption standards if GNUe could benefit. that jsForms can benefit from, great. But that business logic to sort all of that out can't be in the cilent. That's important for a few reasons: 1) We should minimize the amount of trust we have of remote clients. 2) We cannot chain ourselves down with implementing business logic in many places. I dunno.. I don't see the big deal except people griping about using javascript.. when all I'm suggesting is to make a webbased client as clean and quick as possible. My opinion is that eventually there's a place for jsForms - in that gnue-forms *also* shouldn't be trusted. I would love to see a version of gnue-forms-server that communicated to all of its clients through appservers. Because right now it's still possible to hack gnue-forms. We're still trusting code running on an untrusted machine. it just seems logical to me.. HTML has very limited functionality.. javascript allows us to get near full compatibility with local clients HTML doing this could be very "clunky" Concur. I think potentially the HTML client should use Javascript as an add-on. Note that it can't be required if you want to do much with PDAs and cell phones. (I think they are the most interesting market for the HTML client long term) ok, now theres a good reason for no javascript. but even then, you will be doing WAP Action: reinhard has just seen a cell phone running an SSH client last week Action: Mr_You wants one. Action: dsmith 's boss was just running an ssh client on his palm today seen != own :-( ;) I dunno.. maybe its just me, but more users would prefer a javascript client over normal form based CGI. and when I say javascript client I am not saying rewrite. I am saying javascript functionality.. to eliminate "problems" like screen reloads, input error, etc, etc.. I'll leave at that, and thats my only point in this debate. I concur that a pure HTML interface would really suck to use everyday. =) thanks ; damn ;) Action: Mr_You accidentally bound his dash key to some meta key :( *lol* actually I think your words sum it up best. which is why I'm so vocal about it. hi hi andrew so it seems we need two webserver capabilities: HTML w/ Javascript Option and WAP tho I guess WAP isn't really needed for some PDAs/phones. XHTML1.1 is good enough instead of WAP. as long as the layout is decent. and some javascript features I can think of off the top of my head would be: eliminating screen reloads/background CGI communication/connectivity, basic input checking (whatever is builtin to javascript field checking)... thats a good start and doable.. jamest (~jamest@leibniz.math.ksu.edu) left #gnuenterprise. additional features might be: tab/page screen writes without reloading ie. display a page without reloading the screen. thats it anything else is bonus. I enjoyed developing flash cgi interfaces in the past.. it totally eliminates having to code the interface into the CGI. difference is its "static". hmm.. I like flash interfaces but I won't go there... hehe but for a flash interface<>CGI connectivity, all the CGI does is dump variables out and the interface acts appropriately.. Action: jbailey is away: I'm busy its a reasonably efficient way of designing interfaces. btami_ (~btami@3e70d735.dialin.enternet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater: i'v just sended some little patches for designer on win32 ok cvs head? DCL ticket 201/202 yes cool without those designer looks, hmm... any chance you could do a screenprint of the new designer? running on windows? err, screenshot a wrong, or the patched ? the patched version I am just curious how the new version looks i will try, but not promise anything :) btami_: 1.Please put mailmerge and label wizards into head too! what does that mean? Action: Mr_You sighs. jcater: they are in branch only btami_: there is no reports branch designer, man ! sigh ok :) Action: jcater didn't get much sleep last night :) :) btami (~btami@3e70d73a.dialin.enternet.hu) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) btami_ (~btami@3e70d735.dialin.enternet.hu) left irc: "l8r" SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-201.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise. btami (~btami@3e70d724.dialin.enternet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater: a screenshot sended to jcater@gnue.org thanks jcater: sorry for patches are not diff's... but at home (on XP) i don't know how to make diff not a big deal they were one line changes i just can't understand how LayoutEditor works on linux without self.frame = self.instance maybe it's woodoo :) anyway, night all btami (~btami@3e70d724.dialin.enternet.hu) left irc: "l8r" psu (psu@manorcon.demon.co.uk) left #gnuenterprise ("umount /dev/brain"). lol psu: cool signoff message :) ColeMarcus (~ColeMarcu@p50805EAD.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Action: jbailey is back (gone 01:03:35) hi reinhard. must be late in Austria. I am coming home friday morning. Will give you a ring probably next week or after christmas :) dsmith (~dsmith@208.40.56.34) left irc: "later.." hi SachaS looking forward to it please call me at daytime _european_ time ;-) night all lol ok. :) reinhard (~reinhard@M692P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hey what's the tags in html for doing an ordered list?
  1. blah
? yip er no er
    not sure if is a tag
  1. item item
  2. is tho
  3. item
this client sucks sorry the isnt necessary and in fact might hurt thing Include the
  • err
    • come on now ;) jbailey: thats the more proper syntax but likely will fry on some browsers Ommitting end tags is disallowed by xhtml 1.0 xhtml rewuires ending tags ;) revDeke: Nope - It's been fine for at least 5 years. your documents should be well formed jbailey: read the question cool That was how we solved half of the problems at Hollinger. what's the tags in html not what's the tags in xhtml :) same thing i.e. what is valid or required in xhtml doesnt matter to the question :) revDeke: Assume everything is xhtml now. There's no good reason to ever use anything older. chilly they are not the same thing arging about broken browsers is beyond the point arging blah arguing sigh this is why web clients are a clusterfudge my 'u' key is fscked and likely always will be revDeke: xhtml fixes the clusterfdgeness of them imho Action: Mr_You agrees with the current browser vs old browser argument. rofl yeah right current browser best. make ppl use proper tags as long as mickeyshaft is involved in the mix and has any kind of significant share McSoft you are screwed wrt: fixing the browser problems mozilla is standards compliant unless of course the fix is to just write everything to microsofts screwed standard mickeyshaft drafted some of the web standards...you would think they would enfore them BUT re: gnome/C#/mono/ximian current mentality the big problem is xhtml renders fine in old browsers. I've never seen a problem. so called web webmasters who don't know anything other then to se front page Back to Ie 3 and NS 4.0 whihc generates shitty html revDeke: I don't mind the C# mentality. Unlike Java, at least C# is going through standarisation. That single thing is going to staff Sun in the left testical I think. i dont have a preference for or against C# in my opinion C# is just a microsoft rehash of java (adding what was learned from its mistakes) i think it would be easier to just fix the issues with java revDeke: except that only Sun can fix the problems with Java. but as long as scott and bill have penises and tape measures it will never happen By going through standardisation, there'll be the committee. jbailey: i agree MS will likely win that one because of it. revDeke: if they "Open Source" Java perhaps ppl would drop C# roflmao chillywilly: they will never drop c# at this point I can't believe what I'm reading too much money riding on it jcater: We're not that funny. =) rtf is fairly standardized too :) but seriously the mentality is not that of 'language' its that of implementation jcater: fairly standardised isn't ECMA, though. for example look what is happening with CGonf its another fricking m$ registry Action: jcater tries to remember when MS gave a crap about EMCA wait.... I can't who cares all I wanted to ask was a quick qestion without having to open my book damnit ;) look at all the COM type stuff jcater: MS is the one who submitted their stuff. oaf/bonobo, xpcom, dcop etc revDeke: GConf is xml chillywilly: you miss the point seriously miss the point it is anot some prop binary format that will break your system good what i keep saying (after years as a windows hardcore programmer) revDeke: gconf is remarkably well designed is im loving unix more and more daily and i dont mean the freedom I hacked my gconf db the other day because someone made a typo i dont mean the hype i mean the insane productivity im getting out of the most simple of its tools piped together and using output for input and input for output and command line options galore gconftool maybe im turing too old skool revDeke: That's all in gconf. =) command lines rock revDeke: They really have done a nice job on it. but in this inate desire to run away and innovate they are losing the essence of things i remember mainframe to pc(client server) to ntier to web and we are with LTSP now back full circle to mainframe only with more horsepower mainframes today are doing virtal servers with Linux right? I mena that's IBM's thing now so i guess on the upside is i just need to wait another 4 or 5 years and they will be back to the basics that's not necessarily the same thing is it?> i.e. they will finally give up on 'objects' like com/dcop/bonobo etc anyhow as jcater says opinions are like assholes yea so keep yours to yourself, no one wants a peak at your brown eye ;) eww jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-71-168-128.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) joined #gnuenterprise. rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" http://primates.ximian.com/~miguel/bongo-bong.html is proof they think the very unix philosophy that gives them a stable system today is wrong the stated unix philosophy is: Various people claim that the Unix philosophy is to have little programs that do one thing right, and only that one thing. These individual components can then be combined together and they help create more complex applications. too bad Miguel doesn't speak for all of Gnome and too bad gconf was written by Havoc a RedHat employed Gnome hacker Action: revDeke is saying this isnt a miguel thing or a gnome thing somethign in general i have heard havoc's rants he brings up some real problems with .conf files BUT every sanctuary has its price Miguel expands on that ide is the problems a 'registry' brings better or WORSE than the issues it solves with .conf files he says hey why can't we have little software components and "pipe" them together maybe my dad puts it best if you tell him "man i have a headache" KISS? he will stomp on your foot in theory your aching foot makes you forget you have a headache so the question is would you rather have a headache or a throbbing foot? or in this case both :) my archetecture teacher was like that i.e. im not so naive to think that GConf was made to be like windows and serves no purpose there are real problems it tries to solve but why must we let history repeat itself? i.e. microsoft saw those problems and decided to make the m$ registry it sucked and is imho a failure so linux folks hit same wall and think we can build a better registery cause well we are smarter and better perhaps you shold mail havoc but only time will tell and spare us the diatribe ;) heh at this point in my limited experience with gnome2 (which is dependent heavily on it) it seems as bad as m$ registery only not as devastating bah, gnome 1.4 apps use it too yes they do not as many thought er though galeon was one of the only ones i really saw that used it heavily i will spare the diatribe thanks jbailey (~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). revDeke: did you actually read Miguel's paper? I just read it he needs to get a job at MS he tried that I believe ;) he was gonna port IE to UNIX i have read it i promised to not rant here any more on the subject no one forces me to use things that are going that direction so technically i have no right to complain or question so i wont well, you have a right, but, yeah, no point getting all worked up about it when you aren't forced to use it :) well I was teasing but I lve having such power over da masta mwahahahahaa ;P IE was ported to Unix at one time. Solaris atleast. the beta version logged me out of CDE so I trashed it immediately. well miguel was trying to get a job at M$ working on IE to UNIX port, iirc heheh ew, perl as the backend wtf miguel is demented ;) hmmm Rollback, revision control: the setup manager will keep a historic log of all the changes made to the system and it is possible to roll back the configuration to a known state in the past by using a scrollbar (or some other GUI tool). anyone ever use ximian's setup tools? oops I tried redcarpet once. hrrrm, I suppose that would be like asking mechnics if they use "do it yourself auto repair" books ;P hmm, autodetection of location how the hell does that work? We need your help! Move move move! Lock and load! Let's go! Put the cow in the barn! Nat! I am talking to you! Leave that sheep alone! chillywilly: are you demented? sick? you are letting a ximian application configure your machine? well yea of course Action: Mr_You wanders off. I am chillywilly fuck no Action: revDeke suggests you unplug the network cable ximian can lick my sack as likely they are sending data back to home base about you Action: revDeke notes home base is in redmond and not cambridge ;) yeek j/k i like that ximian is doing what they think is best for linux and some of their stuff is getting better, but overall philosophies scare me I see his points BUT he is licking M$ boot we need a COM for UNIX!!! woooo Action: revDeke goes back to point that every sanctuary has its price uh...yea look at the wonders that COM has brought windows Action: revDeke loves how he says IE is great, its not one application but rather lots of 'components' so, gf curses chokes on my multiline text widget... is that a known problem? ever wonder why when IE freaks out your whole damn system crashes? well at any rate, CORBA is such a mind fck anyway that I hardly have time to learn it...let alone make it my holy grain of technologies er, grail Bonobo would be cool if it wasn't so buggy and slow bbl revDeke (www-data@alt1.libertydistribution.com) left #gnuenterprise. Bonobo is liek the Java of Gnome or something and maybe if it ran on other platforms it would be something...uh..yea...something.. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) left irc: "Free Your Enterprise! - http://www.gnuenterprise.org" jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: "home" jcater (~jcater@cpe-066-061-083-220.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: derek is back (gone 11:15:25) wb derek has anyone been trying out 0.5.0 cvs head? hmmm you dont have to ask me to try head more than once ;) jcater: you have packages yet Action: derek is willing to test but as noted before im trying to more professional QA and only used 'relevant' snapshots uploading prereleases as we speak so if i find issues we can work off same page wrt troubleshooting sucks for fixing the issues, though :( im not opposed to using in 'conjunction' with cvs head i.e. usually I consider prereleases to be for finding installation/setup/packaging type issues let me take the prelease and test well, prepackaging like, say the person packaging debs should LOOK at it and say "Hey dude, there are no man pages" if we find issues go ahead and patch and i will start to use head until we think them have cleaned up ;) Action: jcater notices jbailey is not here :) if you think these are even 'pre prerelease' let me know and i will just use head also what is status of gtk2, curses in this? i assume no change (ie dont test) yeah, don't worry about those and those would things for 0.6.0 or later 0.5.x stuff they will stabilize over the course of 0.5.x ok 0.5.0 is to get people introduced to the new format Action: derek is cvs up'ing I have also just updated the feature maps for common, forms, and designer, if anyone's interested http://www.gnuenterprise.org/feature-plans/ a text version of those are also automatically created and put in the TODO files in the releases can we have peter link these from the home page i can never find them when im at home I was talking w/him earlier about that and we are gonna integrate into his php system probably next week as well as move the docs out of my home directory Action: derek is DROOLING for that 0.9.x release psu: for the record this means we need a GNUe WebSite section for the feature plans and a feature plan for the web space ;) ok have cvs head yuck Action: derek is going to fsck with that dumb wireless card again so if i disappear for a bit i will be back #gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jcater' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services. jcater: so jamest has held off on committing his load of patches, or it's done? Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by jcater!~jcater@cpe-066-061-083-220.midsouth.rr.com: Pre-releases for Forms (0.5.0), Designer (0.5.0), and Common (0.4.4) at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/downloads/prereleases.php -- PLEASE, PLEASE use the format converter and test out your old forms... lots of changes to the GFD format #gnuenterprise: mode change '-o jcater' by jcater!~jcater@cpe-066-061-083-220.midsouth.rr.com ajmitch: that's why we're doing this release ok as it is fairly stable at the moment and want to get stuff in people's hands before jamest single-handedly fscks up cvs head for weeks to come i just want to know when i can start digging into gtk2 safely, without having it all change on me :) anyone understand /etc/pcmcia/ in debian? gack I had to add my pcmcia card settings there but it's been 2 yrs derek: ask in #wireless? :) Action: V_laptop is using an aviator 2.4g in deb unstable right now forms fscking is what I live for jamest is here! jamest is here! there is network, network.opts, wireless, wireless.opts but im clueless currently i just dhclient everytime i boot my laptop ajmitch: unfortunetly i ahve gotten #clueless out of #wireless V_laptop: care to share wisdom? i.e. what did you do to get wireless working? i had wireless working with this card and laptop BUT it was highly unreliable like (10 - 15 minutes) then would have to restart everything (networking/pcmcia/etc) i think its cause i didnt have right driver BUT i couldnt figure out how to configure stuff my config predates when wireless* was added though it is there now.. use to, you would find the section of config.opts that related to your card and tweak it for your setup ditto on the network.opts file config.opts: module "ray_cs" opts "essid=LINUX hop_dwell=128 beacon_period=256 translate=1 pc_debug=1" dneighbo_ (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: jcater thinks derek is playing w/wireless to avoid testing out CVS is the prob you're having with getting the card setup, or the net? enabling debug msgs in the driver can be really helpful.. I'm sure that's a given though... =) chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. wassup my peeps? I'm guessing that once derek has the wireless hookup there'll be no stopping gnue-sb development dneighbo__ (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. boom? 3? omg this is getting scary well connected wireless will see how long it lasts what sorta rig do you have? 802.11 and an access point? Action: Vee2d2 is doing peer to peer on old 2M cards derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement)) wow, 2M with a very worn out ibm 760E thinkpad Nick change: dneighbo__ -> derek that is old did they predate 3M ?? :) Action: jcater hides in his corner heh dlink/linksys or something wireless hub/firewall deal usr 2410 wireless card hah.. I thought I was getting my 1st real message on gnue-dev and it's spam.. =/ wow, it has been 10 days since anything on gnue-dev Vee2d2: I wouldn't worry all real planning happens here :) so I've gathered.. =) hmmm a bad gnue hair day http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=996&e=3&u=/021214/168/2va8g.html hey, THAT'S ME! dneighbo_ (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: Connection timed out first death happened ? KeithJagrs (trilluser@63.74.24.9) joined #gnuenterprise. it would be good to mention the 0.5.0 prereleases in the home page btw, hello! howdy heh, dude's fro is bigger than mine fro? http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=996&e=3&u=/021214/168/2va8g.html derek pasted it prior to your joining fewl hehehe I supose he has tu comn that hair out wards or something uh, yea...or something hmmm, someone needs to come play tetrinet with me comb lu lu lu which is faster: to have the logic on the client or on the server? that's not a black or white thing too many variables in that equation well jbailey (~jbailey@65.48.140.35) joined #gnuenterprise. i supose is diiferent if the client's machine is fast and the server is slow or viceversa or if the client uses rpc and what mechanism it uses etc. if 2tier you will probably have a fat client, with ntier it would run on the server. there's advantages of having the logic on the server...speed probably isn't one of them cause a fat client will be fastest in almost all cases 'fat client'? define that plz everything going on in the client i.e., it is fat got it http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/F/fat_client.html it should be pointed out that in our case thin and fat refers more to processing of business logic there's practically no difference in the since or power of the client s/since/size whether thin or fat (n-tier vs 2-tier) Action: jcater goes back to his movie whatcha watching? Independence Day I agree with that assessment mr. cater bah an oldie but goodie yea, I suppose chillys logic is that a single fat client would theoritically run faster for one user vs. ntier server with multiple users. but you haven't made your commit quota for today ;) oh I see what you're saying you mean its always a fat client, just difference on how it is used. as a fat or thin client. hmm you know that could possibly improve ntier scalability some how. know what I mean? ie. distributed processing between the client and server. ra3vat (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) or using the entire processing of the client and the server for "extra" functionality.. *shrug* actually, what err, nevermind want me to explain real quick? Action: chillywilly takes the crack pipe away from Mr_You I'm not sure if its practically useful. no I was about to say something but then I'd miss my movie aren't you missing it now? if the client is always fat, you could use this to your advantage by making it a server when in ntier setup. forgive my ignoreance.... Is n-tier fatter than 2-tier? not in jcater's definition ie. appserver uses the clients for processing and the actual servers take care of what can't be done by the client. KeithJagrs: tier-ness doesn't equate to speed directly it could go either way fat/thin doesn't equate to speed either 2-tier could be faster because there's no middleware to go thru n-tier could be faster if your logic is really complicated and could benefit from running on a high-end server I'd say, though, that typically if speed is the only factor 2-tier is better n-tier typically would imply more flexibility not speed so it's a trade off but these days, I think it's negligable either way but that's just mho my suggestion is looking into the possibility of using the clients (which are already fat) as logic processing and returning the result to the server. ie. distributed processing. i see Mr_You: one of the main battle cries for the whole AppServer part of the project why can't the servers distribute the load between themselves? is that clients can't be trusted so that kind of kills that and the client be ignorant of it? hmm.. well nice feature. chillywilly: image the cost savings of using 2 servers and 12 clients or 12 clients and 5 servers or more.. those are extremely low numbers better example would be 1000 clients and 2 servers ;) because the clients could be part of any processor intensive processing. of course, we are abusing the definition of thin and fat in a way in my setup, I don't have ANY gnue-forms instances running on client machines they all run on the server I understand the untrusted situation, but that would be one hell of a feature: distributed appserver integrating clients as nodes for distributed computing. lol dude if appserver could work with data at all it's be a step in the right direction so lets keep the requirements simple for now yeah, well I don't think it would be too extremely dificult. after appserver improves. rdean (~rdean@12-221-229-247.client.insightBB.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" that feature alone could potentially increase usage. appserver works with data you just have to use the experimental version ;) um, yeah ok heheh would be more network traffic, but thats cheap compared to server processing power. jcater: appserver/src/_featuretest/ Mr_You: depends on the processing get with the program! ;) most databases these days are more disk-intensive than processing intensive jcater: yeah i.e., IO is more the bottleneck chillywilly: I am with the program, thank you sure you are maybe I just don't wanna be heheh I should be in bed right now gotta get up at the butt crack of dawn butt crack of dawn hmmm KeithJagrs (trilluser@63.74.24.9) got netsplit. derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) got netsplit. jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-71-168-128.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) got netsplit. split jcater: don't think too hard jcater: I don't want you to damage that valuable neural net KeithJagrs (trilluser@63.74.24.9) returned to #gnuenterprise. derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-71-168-128.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. ra3vat (~ds@ics.elcom.ru) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater: I was refering to appserver processing not db.... I imagine it would take a lot to really consume a lot of CPU anyway, i suppose one must be careful when distribute logic on the client and on the server but a thousand clients could weigh down an appserver some.. I'm guessing hehe. so you dont waste broadband in a ping-pong of data travelling to complete a process Mr_You: I think you are talking yourself into a 2-tier setup as that's the next logical conclusion from what you are descriing ;) where'd derek go well yeah I thought he was gonna test stuff for me Action: jcater peeks thru his monitor hmm don't see him heh just spawn a new jcater for testing ;) a new instance of jcater? yea he's a self pollinating AI with methods and all? hehe btw jcater, hows documentation going? your tutorials are very good I uploaded some updated ones this weekend cool but have been focusing on other stuff since so those are the latest they reflect changes in 0.5.0 where are they? http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/docs/forms but ps2pdf screwed up some of the dingbat fonts (lists, etc) so ignore the font oddities :) actually, it just dropped them out what was ON-SWITCH changed to? Block.Post-FocusIn all block-level triggers operate at the record level now to be consistent thanks btw, I think it works better than the On-Switch did as I spent some time debugging most of the triggers did you take into account the typos I told you the other day? I think so I dont remember each of then ;) what are the main changes in 0.5.0 compared with the current versions? * blocks have been moved out of pages and into a new section, which is a child of
    * Pages have been moved into a new section, which is a child of * The height, width, and tabbed attributes of are now attributes of . This is because those attributes are more layout/display-oriented than logic. * A new tag, , has been introduced that looks like the old , but will be a child of * has been simplified to only contain layout logic (positioning info, etc) and is a child of . * All blocks are transparent by default * Transparent has been added to pages, but is set to false by default * The "database" attribute of datasources was renamed to "connection", so would become This is to make it clearer that the value ties into the connections.conf file. * Renamed the tag to and moved into Common, so reports, et al, can use. This reinforces that this tag is a substitute for a connections.conf entry. * Removed the trigger="..." attribute of buttons and, instead, use an On-Action trigger. * Layout management markup has been added. Any layout-manager specific markup is namespace qualified. The current "x","y", "width", and "height" attributes are part of GNUe:Layout:Char layout management. (See example below) that's most of it well, that's forms designer has been changed to reflect the new format plus an Event Mapping inspector is in place plus a better code editor plus the start (but only demoable) schema editor (.gsd files) s/start/start of/ hmmm good we have a conversion script that will convert 99% of your existing GFDs to the new format it is in forms/utils/ jcater: For accessibility, sometime we'll have to relate labels to input fields. practically the only thing it won't catch are funky triggers on-triger is more logic that trigger=blah Is that on a TODO list somewhere? not to my knowledge Hmm. code editor?? How would I get it added? =) is there a code editor currently? convince us of the need for it ;) night all yeah, but it was hidden Which us? I don't want to do this more than once. =) it was under Tools chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) left irc: "Free Your Enterprise! - http://www.gnuenterprise.org" hmmmmm V_laptop (~vin@66-169-136-41.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/screenshots/designer-docks2.png KeithJagrs: in the lower right corner nice ;) jbailey: jamest and I would be a good start a TODO list? you mean like python.org's PEPs? KeithJagrs: we aren't nearly that formal KeithJagrs: If they were, I'd probably have man pages by now Action: jbailey hides. yeah. too much bureaucracy dude there are man pages heh btw, have you checked out the new prereleases to make sure they have what you need? jcater: I think the sdist target should unconditionally produce man pages. it does if you've run ./setup-cvs.py No - I'm a bit swamped right now, that's why I switched to the release files. =) It shouldn't need that. well it does nite all ;) KeithJagrs (trilluser@63.74.24.9) left irc: "later" jcater: Hmm. I thought that the setup-cvs.py didn't produce them for me when I tested. I'll try again. --- Tue Dec 17 2002