V_laptop (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) kid (~kid@pD90542B5.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. good morning reinhard (~reinhard@M692P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. hello kid hello reinhard hello ra3vat hello reinhard what time it is for you? hello all kid: i'm from austria so same time as you i know, but ra3vat is from somehwere 200km behinf moscow ah ok thought this question was for both of us :-) i know that you're from austria, saw it at the members list where in germany are you from? oberfranken, coburg but working in mannheim i'm 2 hours ahead or behind ahead if sun goes up as every day :) so already after breakfast yeah everyone here is still sleeping hard to believe :) i'm just speaking about my family, i can't currently see the rest of this town ok reinhard: could you confirm that app server future plan is up to date with latest commits? which future plan are you referring to here? http://www.gnuenterprise.org/feature-plans/feature-plans.php http://www.gnuenterprise.org/feature-plans/appserver.html basically yes the "frontend.py" refers to the point "implement new RPC api" because it's the way to test that api and the other commits were minor fixes in that new api in the last days a used (very) few time to look at gnue (mainly docs, irc-logs, and application-server) and thought about to break my development of my dream of an ERP-frmework +a i know have written a few thoughts which would be for and against this would you be interested to read this? (this is currently only about 25 lines with some very basic hints) please post can send this to you via DCC ? sure, but what about to make it more public? :) i think its better to make it available for some guinea pidgeons because: a) i did not spend time to be polite, just stated the facts with my crude english b) it is very short and basic now, more explanation would be necessary for a public version (even if this is only my nick-name) error occurred does this dcc-send have its own port? i'm on the client of a jana-server kid (~kid@pD90542B5.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Excess Flood kid (~kid@pD90542B5.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. back again kid: i'm also very interested please paste here yes it is better to place here kid (~kid@pD90542B5.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Excess Flood kid (~kid@pD90542B5.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. back again after all pls remember that i added no text for politeness (excusion is for sure my english) ok, much fun with this, breakfast now for me cu kid: it didn't get here you were kicked before it arrived? yes does dcc work for you? no sorry failed mom reinhard: why he was kicked, i never seen it here before? its some spam protection dunno happens dozen of times in quake forum i'll send it via e-mail to reinhard i pasted much more than 25 lines at once in the past ok or you could send to gnue-dev@gnu.org where only developers are subscribed sorry, too late - i have to hurry: my wife wants to see me at breakfast table; it's now in your email cu later cu reinhard: so, now _id_ field is mandatory for app server? every table will have a non-meaningful primary key we call it _id_ for now but i don't think this name will stay but yes this is mandatory as all references will go over that on the other hand this shouldn't be a problem as soon as we have the class definitions in appserver and appserver creates the tables automagically does app server work with forms now? how to start it for that? it does not yet we have to change the dbdriver to fit the new api I *think* siesel might be working on this ok back for some minutes you received? could you repost to gnue-dev@gnu.org? as i said before, i wouldn't like for now - it's still too preliminary didn't you receive it? i got it however i'm a bit busy at the moment might answer in the afternoon i have to go out anyway will be back late afternoon, so that is no problem then send to ds@ics.elcom.ru as i told ra3vat this is just my current thinking about giving up my own framework and eventually join something (if i'm allowed for sure) as i spent a few hours for this part this needs some thinking and i want to decide during my holidays, when work starts again, there will be no free parts in my mind for this complicated bit kid: have you sent? to the email above? - not yet i'm currently adding an introiduction please do, before you leave :) please wait few minutes np Arc (~arc@syr-24-58-3-149.twcny.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. ra3vat: it's on its way now cu later Arc (~arc@syr-24-58-3-149.twcny.rr.com) left #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) left irc: "Free Your Enterprise! - http://www.gnuenterprise.org" psu (psu@81.98.44.42) joined #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@mke-24-167-199-83.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: chillywilly pokes jcater are ya there? http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2002-12-27-002-26-NW-BZ-DT-0001 anyway, when I go t print out the GObj tree I get a GObj name for GodlDefault object even though afaict I have written the object correctly and set its Type='GodlDefault' all the other objects look correct so I am stumped reinhard (~reinhard@M692P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Anything is good and useful if it's made of chocolate" rudy-sv (~riper@D5E02E47.kabel.telenet.be) joined #gnuenterprise. hi rudy-sv reinhard (~reinhard@M692P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. rudy-sv (~riper@D5E02E47.kabel.telenet.be) left #gnuenterprise. wb reinhard thanks psu (psu@81.98.44.42) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) ra3vat: received it? yes so you understand why its still kind of "unofficial" - just my current thoughts i do not know any of gnue resources that restrict to post such a thing :) i'm just not the best to discuss with maybe this is not about your resources but about my idea about what i think might be helpfull and public you're in the GUI part, aren't you? no so where mostly i do some testing, help with i18n things and thying to use tools your messgae is before me if you ask questions i will try to answer message currently i can't tell detailed questions, this is just more general thinking anyway: how good is i18n support with python? i do not see any problem with that it supports unicode is this also based on icu? nope ucme ;) brave new world : learn 10 new acronyms every day Action: derek was kidding yes, thx to google i recognized this after some time as icu - i see you the joke ucme - you see me Action: derek forgets not everyone is native english speaker so i apologize for wasting google cycles yes, i saw, but it took some time to find the general pattern for the quite distinct google hits np, i'm currently wasting enough time and resources for some music information hey derek sup chillywilly see you have been an odl meister of late here's a legal question for youse guys: what happens if someone distributes binaries but does not do any of the things in section 3 a, b, or c to ensure access to the source code er, in the GNU GPL derek: I'm trying ;) it's all a matter of putting in some time chillywilly: it depends and it is a derivative work of a GPL'd program if someone distributes the binaries but does nothing in sections in a,b,c and they own the copyright to ALL the code what can the original authors do? yea then it doesn't matter they are are violating the GPL but they likely wont go after themselves. ;) in the case of a derivative work they are in violation and its up to the 'copyright' holder of the original work to do something right what can they do? sue for violation of the license? copyright infringement? talk to the one violating the GPL sure most of them do by not knowing better that's the first step of course http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html has a section about 'violations' thanks I was looking for that of course as a last step you can sue them you can do ANYTHING a normal copyright violation can only reason I am asking is someone came into #gnu asking about a derivative ircd that an isp runs that is gpl'd i.e. reinhard states the FSF policy which is play nice until its apparent the other party refuses too HOWEVEr you could play like the RIAA if you like chillywilly: take care he is leary of them because he thinks they may have sniffers, etc. in their modified version and drag their name in the mud, be abusive and sick lots of lawyers on them cya reinhard chillywilly: now you have a different animal well sorta if this isp runs a modified ircd if they arent 'distributing' it chillywilly: as currently "running on a server that is accessible to others" ah but they distribute it to various isps then technically they arent held bound to section 3 is not "distributing" ah ok then ah if they distributing then yes there coudl be issue right which is what I told him BUT chillywilly: i meant "take care" in the original sense, not as "goodbye" :) he'd have to talk to the original authors and they would have to beat on the derivative works ppl ;) yes reinhard: oh, ok you could not even do anything if you are not the original author right thrid party guy has no rights er, third which is the reason why it makes _very_much_ sense to assign copyright to the fsf for gnu projects :) I wss thinking that too :) i had an interesting talk to one of the oscommerce authors lately about the "running on server != distributing" issue as currently if you are running a GPL'ed program on a public server that is kind of a grey area you are not bound to the GPL not only you are not bound to article 3 you are not bound to anything at all right it is internal so some ISP's run oscommerce for their customers and they removed all copyright notes and all "oscommerce" text hmmm, so if these guys aren't distribting the program to other isps then they are off the hook and "sold" as "foo-comerce" isn't selling it distributing it? the oscommerce authors got very angry about this (which i can understand) but could do nothing about it i meant selling the access to the server oh selling in an ISP sense k yea, that's legal but not very nice this is something that the FSF _has_ to address in the version 3 of the GPL so you just raise a stink within the community and it becomes a PR issue ;) and no one wants to buy form them becase they have a bad rap ;) right? ;) well not always possible a) those ISP's act locally b) their customers (businessmen) aren't part of the "community" isn't this a fine line they are treading though? well reinhard: have you talked to them (os commerce guys) about possibly using the affero license instead? er, with placing restriction on "use" (well sorta) it's really hard in such cases to tell where "distribution" starts and where "let others use" ends right grey area ;) derek: what is affero license? they'll still have the version nder the former license reinhard: it is the short term GPL modification ;) to this problem ah ok The Affero General Public License The Affero General Public License is a free software license, copyleft, and incompatible with the GNU GPL. It consists of the GNU GPL version 2, with one additional section that Affero added with FSF approval. The new section, 2(d), covers the distribution of application programs through web services or computer networks. The Affero GPL is incompatible with the GNU GPL version 2 because of section 2(d); however, the section is wri that we can make GNU GPL version 3 upward compatible with the Affero GPL. That is why we gave our approval for Affero to modify the GNU GPL in this way. i might meet him again and tell him the DOWN side is its gpl incompatiable, BUT it will be compatiable with GPL 3 so GPL 3 will addresss web/network services issue right? in essence henri poole wanted to make affero web services under gpl but didnt want to be screwed like os commerce guys feel right now so he worked with eben and richard to add a clause to the GPL to solve the problem richard and eben to my knowledge want to address other issues as well in gpl 3 so told henri to release as affero why can't they get their act together and update the GPL? ;) and they will probably use the same clause (or darn similar) in gpl 3 in addition to other changes they have in mind that is more than a job for a rainy sunday afternoon :) for example the GPL 3 should be more compatible with different laws in different countries yea I know it's not something you just whip together for example some parts of the GPL are not compatible with German/Austrian laws really? yes what parts? especially the "no warranty" part hmmm, sounds like UCITA UCITY? (crappy US law) reinhard: the gpl is very generic UCITA ah doesn't let Free Software have no warranty it is about only license that has universal teeth only adopted by some states i.e. the 'important' parts generally are compatiable universally since copyright is a somewhat universal concept at the basic level no most countries in europe have no copyright system at all the fact that GPL simply uses copyright (at a basic level) to insure rights yep we have an author's right system which is very different in the basic concepts reinhard: they are compatiable via the 'geneva convention' (or whatever) partly for example the copyright assignment is not valid in europe however er not geneva... but bern convention maybe it's good that fsfeurope is working on these issues (with RMS et al) yes we just need more lawyers like Lessig ;) I was just going to ask what the FSF Europe was doing Action: derek just thinks the WORST thing one could do is start putting a separate license for every country that is not possible legally because (for example) a single license with some 'exceptions' or 'sections' that address oddities in law per country would be fine if you have an own licence for france, it has to be written in french which is what happens in the US all the time and you _can't_ (legally) agree to that license if you don't speak french as states are separate entities so you see a contract/license drafted for one state with 'clauses' for other states the most funny thing is if you buy some food here sometimes it says "ingredients for austria:....." "ingredients for germany: ...." etc. because different countries have different laws on how the ingredients have to be listed but i digres :-) aehm disgres? digress ok thanks :-) something like that reinhard: that would make sense if germans spoke foo and austrians bar but since you both speak german Action: derek isnt quite sure what they are able to 'hide' ;) well for example say in austria they write it contains "natriumglutamat" and in germany they have to write it contains "E533" which is an official list of allowed chemicals em of course E533 is an entry in that list almost 5pm reinhard? yes yes btw Under the Bern Convention, everything written is automatically copyrighted from whenever it is put in fixed form. So you don't have to do anything to "get" the copyright on what you write--as long as nobody else can claim to own your work. back reinhard? having visitors at home sorry have to leave will be back tomorrow bye reinhard (~reinhard@M692P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "The more often you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets" ok, thx for your prompt answer psu (psu@81.98.44.42) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (~jbailey@65.48.140.35) joined #gnuenterprise. psu (psu@81.98.44.42) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) sigh next time I decide to work on my car someone remind me that I'm a programmer and not a fscking mechanic ROFL What were you trying to do? jcater: it really is easy :) ra3vat: I don't know how to change a tire. =) car = satrun.instance car.fix() just isnt working out as specified in the manual? or is it mechanic = ai.jcater ** invalid object assignment ** derek: That might be bit rot. Try deleting the old ai.jcater instance and creating a new one. jbailey: it is easy as i said. Give me a call when needed :) Next time I buy a car, I'll think about that. =) The last two were new, so I just phoned the roadside assistance that came with it. jbailey (~jbailey@65.48.140.35) left irc: "Client Exiting" oh, one day I was ordered to repair unassembled track to leave an army nah I have an old chevy s10 blazer ('88) had it for 4 years picked it up for $200, dude threw out a rod but got an engine for $200 recently it was running for about a month, but now won't start I think it needs new spark plugs I draw that conclusion from the fact that I just twisted/busted the ceramic off of one :) it was not chevy blazer in my case :) so i'm not ever near to imagine what is there inside it ra3vat: I've learned a lot about vehicles in the last week it's quite interesting although much more dirty than modding out a Pentium (oddly enough, though, much cheaper :) matkor (~matkor@charm.ant.gliwice.pl) joined #gnuenterprise. matkor (~matkor@charm.ant.gliwice.pl) left irc: Remote closed the connection matkor (~matkor@charm.ant.gliwice.pl) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater: remember gease is not dirty nor dust :) in russian it is the same word as butter so something that may be eaten with donuts eew heheh hey jc can you tell my why one of my GodlDefault object tells me it is a 'Gobj' instead of 'GodlDefault' when I print the tree out I don't see the problem bbiab chillywilly: no looks good reinhard (~reinhard@M692P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (~reinhard@M692P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Client Quit jcater: exactly but if you run it you'll see that it prints 'Gbj' as the name for Objects.GodlDefault er, 'GObj' chillywilly: how are you running it? err, what godl file? and do you have any uncommitted changes? I am doing ~/bin/gcvs ./GodlPasrse.py thekicthensink.godl form gnue/appserver/src/_featuretest/ er, ./GodlParser.py I have no un committed changes blah, uncommitted hmm, I don't think I liek NetBank's software that much I still miss assigning catergories which makes a GnuCash import very nice but even my old bank got rid of that feature also, NetBank lists all VISA check card usage as Ck Card Memo with no other info so I have no idea where the hell it happened at oh wait there's an id link doh chillywilly: the Ck Card Memo is only for check card transactions that haven't "posted" (i.e., have been "approved" but not posted) they'll disappear with real information in a few days their software isn't necessarily my favorite but I like the rates :) yea my other bank's softwrae was more up to the minute hmmm, now I can't get it to display the frelling id link this is driving me nucking futs ;)