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<kid> morning @ everybody
Nick change: reinhard_ -> reinhard
<reinhard> good morning kid
<kid> i think i now have an affordable unix-box
<kid> but it will take some time to be delivered and probably more to get installed
<kid> but it's incredible what you can buy for < 450 eur
<kid> nevertheless it will take me some to get this running so I can't help much in the next days
<reinhard> np
<reinhard> you already helped much
<kid> it was ok with the pyunit-test?
<kid> this is what i want to extend in the next days, now that my machine in nearly ordered
<reinhard> yes i got the idea of pyunit
<kid> startup sequence is a little bit crude
<reinhard> i still have to take a closer look
<kid> but testing-code can be checked very easy
<reinhard> however the mad goats have come back for new year's day...
<kid> we have already our new year's supriese
<kid> the flood is in our twon
<kid> i was driving away the car at 4 am
<kid> now we half 1/2 m water in the garden
<kid> no way to leave the house on dry feed
<reinhard> ouch
<kid> at least it's slowly decreasig now
<kid> nice experience to drive through 30cm water with a non-jeep
<chillywilly> this is scary as this xsl stuff is making sense now ;P
<chillywilly> hi reinhard, kid
<chillywilly> and anyone else who is still awake
<kid> hi chillywilly
<chillywilly> or just got up? ;)
<kid> u like xsl?
<chillywilly> it's kinda 'functional'
<kid> i think it's one of the crudest ideas in the last years
<kid> this is right
<kid> but this is the only + for it
<chillywilly> I didn't say i like it, but I understand the xsl files that transform the gsd format
<chillywilly> in gnue/common/utils/xml2sql
<kid> last i had to do that stuff i used jython and xerces
<chillywilly> I am thinking of writing an xsl file to go from godl to grpc
<kid> a little more to types but readable at least
<chillywilly> for fun and profit
<chillywilly> or something ... ;)
<kid> best would be: for fun AND profit
<chillywilly> yea, well...that profit part is the tricky part ;)
<chillywilly> only issue I see is where you don't want to export every interface in your godl file
<chillywilly> sheesh, you unsubscribe from some spam list and they just keep on sending you crap
<kid> so, ordered my new machine now - doing something for it-industry
<kid> by ordering ordering a bulk of out-dated parts
<chillywilly> hmmm?
<kid> a new box to get linux or some bsd running
<chillywilly> gnu/linux ;)
<kid> my two other machines are loaded with games for family (and quake for me)
<kid> my company notebook has win2k
<chillywilly> ew
<chillywilly> ;P
<kid> and i wanted to update my linux knowledge anyway
<kid> maybe i should start with the hurd port of gnue
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<kid> 450 euro for 60 gb hdd and 512 mb ram
<chillywilly> I believe ajmitch was attempting to get gnue running on the hurd
<kid> is hurd installed "on top" of a running linux or on its own
<chillywilly> it runs on top of Mach
<chillywilly> a multi-server environment on top of Mach
<chillywilly> that emulates a POSIX-like system
<kid> yes, technically, but if u install it as your machines os is it a self-complete os?
<chillywilly> yes it runs by itself
<kid> ah
<chillywilly> it's not "feature" complete
<chillywilly> but you can get it up and running
<kid> i just read some of the ideas and it sounded great
<chillywilly> #hurd is valuable resource here
<chillywilly> well Mach sucks ;)
<chillywilly> it is kinda slow
<kid> this was also in the nextstep, wasn't it?
<chillywilly> but life mshould be better when the L4 port is done
<chillywilly> Mach?
<chillywilly> I dunno
<chillywilly> rumor has it MacOS X is running single server BSD on top of Mach
<kid> when i remember correctly than macosx has its roots in nextstep
<chillywilly> yea...nextstep is objective C based env right?
<kid> yes
<chillywilly> then we have GNUStep...
<kid> is this the gcc version of objective C?
<chillywilly> GNUStep is Free nextstep-like clone afaik
<chillywilly> part of the GNU project
<chillywilly> they were going to eventually build a desktop env and be the official one...then Gnome came around and stole its thunder
<kid> so some rival to hurd? 
<chillywilly> nah
<kid> or more the gui-part
<chillywilly> it's a app develop's platform and gui thing
<chillywilly> like Gnome
<kid> ah
<chillywilly> but a nextstep clone...written in ObjC
<chillywilly> you dig?
<kid> slowly
<kid> as always
<chillywilly> I don't think they really do have a desktop env though
<chillywilly> just the development libs
<chillywilly> guess there's not much interest in ObjC
<chillywilly> afterstep wm uses GNUStep libs I think
<kid> even now when they spoiled c++ with godzillion of features
<chillywilly> I like c++
<kid> i liked it until version 1.2
<kid> even heard the big master BS himself in munich
<chillywilly> strustroup?
<chillywilly> bjarne
<kid> telling everybody not clever enough to follow his path to not be worth a C++ coder
<kid> yes
<chillywilly> he's a bit arrogant?
<kid> borland had organized a seminar
<kid> at least he knows that he is more smart then average
<chillywilly> well, he did develop a programming language
<kid> and its sometimes more or less background of his arguments
<chillywilly> but arrogance is unacceptable in my book
<kid> no question, I admire his abilities
<chillywilly> ;)
<kid> but I think that they went to far with C++
<chillywilly> possibly
<kid> anyway - goslin bashes C++ and thinks that he was more clever with java
<kid> so some point other way round
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> just use C# ;)
<chillywilly> heheh
<kid> it was more easy for MS learning from the mistakes of java after 5 years
<kid> and heilsberg is not that stupid too
<kid> I don't think that this is about better C# or Java but about that MS had not forgotten to add more languages to .NET
<kid> and this is a big mistake with the Java approach
<kid> they should support jython
<chillywilly> what exactly is Jython python binding for Java?
<kid> moment pls
<chillywilly> anyway, I was kidding abot C#
<chillywilly> although there is the DotGNU project ;)
<kid> sorry, i have to take a break - family awaits me at breakfast table
<kid> and yes: jython is python compiled to java-classes, with the possibility to use java classes
<kid> back
<chillywilly> wb kid
<kid> i think that C# has at least some preprocessor features
<kid> i will never understand why they missed this in java
<kid> but as i said: with the good xml-support in java-libraries and jython as a robust scripting language you have a good alternative to this cruel xsl
<kid> at least imho
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<Remosi> hmm
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Action: Vee2d2 watches in amazment as the stargate like teleporter drops down huge donuts and pulls them back up revealing jcater
<jcater> dude
<jcater> that's not the teleporter pulling those donuts back
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<Vee2d2> ok then, what was it? =)
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<kid> some1 here working with freebsd?
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<Mr_You> I work with freebsd why?
<jbailey> What?
<kid> just for interest: i ordered a newbox and thinking whether to install linux or freebsd
<Mr_You> you have a question?
<jbailey> Well, you can install Debian GNU/FreeBSD or Debian GNU/Linux without problems. =)
<Mr_You> there's a Debian GNU/FreeBSD? ;-)
<kid> i read this somewhere but in this post it seemed to be unofficial
<Mr_You> I don't think so.  ;-)
<jbailey> Mr_You: Yup
<jbailey> It's not a released arch yet, though
<kid> but as far as i found the necessary things should be available with the normal freebsd
<kid> at least i hope
<Mr_You> Not sure I see much point in it.
<jbailey> http://www.debian.org/ports/freebsd/
<kid> ah thx
<jbailey> Mr_You: If you want freebsd but (like I do) hate the ports tree concept.
<kid> than this was probably an old post
<kid> but ppl seemed not to be unhappy with the freebsd ports
<jbailey> Also, with Debian you'll know that all of the config files are in the places you expect them to be in a Debian OS.
<jbailey> kid: IMHO the ports tree is what really limited FreeBSD's deployment.
<kid> last time i worked with linux was some 0.96 - so not much i'm used to now
<Mr_You> I would rather see someone enable Debian within a FreeBSD Jail ;-)
<Mr_You> jbailey: but why not just run Debian?  ;-)
<kid> and I hoped that i found a "small" system where I know what happens
<jbailey> Mr_You: I don't understand your question.
<jbailey> You would be running Debian.
Action: revDeke doesnt see much how many people can used a 'compiled' system
<revDeke> except for rare cases
<revDeke> it leaves SO many variables its hard to assure 'sanity'
<Mr_You> jbailey: what is so important that you run the FreeBSD kernel?
<jbailey> Mr_You: The firewalling kicks ass.
<Mr_You> jbailey: you don't get any benefits from apt-get 
<Mr_You> well I imagine thats debatable.
<revDeke> as essentially  a locally compiled kernel/package makes you the only person on the planet using it
<revDeke> which for 'corporate' type support is a headache
<jbailey> Mr_You: What do you mean by no advantages with apt-get?
<revDeke> not saying i dont see any value
<revDeke> but its limited
<Mr_You> jbailey: I guess you could run all the apt-getable binaries in linux compatible mode.. *shrug*
<jbailey> Mr_You: Your statement doesn't make sense.  Why would you do that?
<jbailey> The binaries are all freebsd native binaries.
<Mr_You> from where?
<kid> so as i feared: there is no simple answer to my simple question: what is to be installed on my nice new box
<Mr_You> using apt-get?
<jbailey> Mr_You: Yes, using apt-get.
<jbailey> That's the nature of the Debian port.
<Mr_You> kid: you never asked the question :-P  so what do you plan to use it for?
<Mr_You> jbailey: and where are these apt-getable binaries coming from?
<jbailey> Mr_You: The freebsd Debian buildd.
<kid> 1. re-enlarge my *ix knowledge
<Mr_You> you are telling me someone has ported all of them to freebsd kernel? ;-)
<Mr_You> yow
<kid> 2. have a better chance to contribute to gnue which is not easy with win2k
<jbailey> Mr_You: Yes.  Same as happens with the hurd-i386 buildd, same as with the linux ports for sparc, sh, s390, m68k, etc...
<jbailey> Mr_You: Debian is not necessarily Linux.
<kid> 3. spend some momney for it industry
<reinhard> kid: in short: install debian woody
<Mr_You> jbailey: I know, I just don't see any benefit.. freebsd is really easy to config 
<reinhard> kid: in precise: install debian gnu/linux woody ;-)
<kid> this was an eays answer
<jbailey> Mr_You: I told you why I'd use it on my FreeBSD systems.  Because my router shouldn't have a compiler installed on it.
<Mr_You> so just rm it.
<kid> for this gnu/linux i found something: http://librenix.com/?inode=2312
<jbailey> But then how do you update your ports tree after?
<Mr_You> if you are already running FreeBSD it wouldn't be an "upgrade".. scary actually..
<Mr_You> jbailey: why would a router need a ports tree?
<jbailey> Mr_You: proxy server, ssh.
<Mr_You> jbailey: you could install the binaries.
<jbailey> Mr_You: From where?  I thought FreeBSD didnt' provide binaries.
<Mr_You> I dunno.. I see it as a hack, not a production tool.. 
<Mr_You> jbailey: packages.
<kid> reinhard: because of the supported programs / hardware / packaging system ?
<Mr_You> you can install them from the sysinstall menu or pkg_add
<jbailey> Mr_You: Interesting.  I didn't know FreeBSD was now providing binary packages.
<Mr_You> been that way for years..
<reinhard> kid: two resons
<Mr_You> In the past I rarely used ports and just used the packages.
<jbailey> Cool.  Every *BSD box I've been on does the whole ports tree thing.  I really hate it though.
<reinhard> a) is a very philosophical reason (freedom, ethics, value of the GPL etc.)
<jbailey> Anyhow.  They're definetly aiming for Production stuff.
<reinhard> b) is a very practical reason: i found it to always have been the easiest way to do what most others do
Action: Mr_You values more freedom from BSD. ;-)
<reinhard> i.e. for example
<Mr_You> oh Freedom.
<reinhard> most people here use debian, so you are very likely to get help if you have a problem with debian
<reinhard> happens to me all the time btw :)
<kid> I had the impression that linux now is veeery big and cluttered with all these distributions
<reinhard> yeah
<kid> where freebsd seems to be concentrated with just one source base
<reinhard> that's why debian is the distribution to choose when selecting gnu/linux
<Mr_You> Linux is a kernel.. all the distros are the userland and configurations.
<reinhard> you can have a running debian system with < 100 MB
<kid> it's not the bare size of the system
<kid> i just like to know what happens an runs on my machine - even for the price to write a config manually
<kid> probably everything is too big today
<kid> for this approach
<jbailey> My base Debian GNU/Linux install is like 35 megs.
<jbailey> I can safely say that I understand almost all of the pieces of it.
<reinhard> not sure what you mean with "like to know what happens and runs on my machine"
<kid> what about a dual boot - just to postpone the decision : someone tried this?
<Mr_You> if you want experience in both OSs
<reinhard> if you say you want to understand all the code that runs at any time i would say this is not really possible
<Mr_You> but if you just want to do GNUe dev, just pick Debian.
<reinhard> if you say you want to understand the general function of all processes you can have that with debian
<kid> we have a redhat at work and all this package installation doesn't give you a feeling what happens
<kid> this is what i MUST see when i edit config manually
<reinhard> yes i understand that
<reinhard> i had suse earlier
<kid> this is what i mean with "seeing what happens"
<reinhard> before i was converted to debian
<jbailey> You probably want Linux From Scratch then.
<reinhard> ;-)
<Mr_You> just make code from source.
<Mr_You> to "see what happens" heh
<Mr_You> compile code from source that is.
<kid> seems that no one does this - so probably not a smart decesion
<kid> sorry i have to leave for some time - eat for me
<Mr_You> does what?
<kid> thx for the hints anyway
<reinhard> Just go ahead and write your own multitasking multiuser os!
<reinhard> Worked for me all the times.
<reinhard>         -- Linus Torvalds
<reinhard> ;-)
<Vee2d2> I hear that argument (I want to have complete control of my system, down to the finest of details, etc..) from a couple people still bent on using slackware, but I still say there's way too much overhead in maintaining such systems to make them worthwhile, and more often they're pretty out of date when compared to systems like debian
<Mr_You> IMO, a package system is a requirement of a modern OS.
<Mr_You> and normally theres not a lot of behind the scenes magic except for dependency checking.
<jbailey> Vee2d2: They're useful to a point, though.  That' how I learned how I know about glibc and the Hurd.
<jbailey> By breaking it over and over again...
<Vee2d2> I cut my teeth on slackware.. but that was a long time ago
<Vee2d2> and at the time, it was the main dist.. =)
Action: Vee2d2 lights the grill and gets a steak ready
<reinhard> mmmhhh
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<kid> back again - sorry again for this unpolite leaving of the self-startet discussion
<kid> just to make it clear: I don't want to be the big guru maintaining its own system - i just don't like the idea to NOT know *ix but to know e.g. redhat x.y or suse a.b
<kid> so this is why i like at least on start to work on a non-tool level with a new system as far as possible
<kid> and from the stuff i read to today freebsd seemed a little be more apted for this small wish
<chillywilly> hi kid
<kid> hi chillywilly
<chillywilly> what are you going on about?
<kid> just uncautiously started a discussion about best unix for my new machine
<chillywilly> Debian GNU/Linux of course :)
<kid> i was thinking about installing freebsd instead of linux
<chillywilly> why?
<kid> ah - i have to repeat
<chillywilly> you'll learn *nix all the same whichever way you go
<kid> to make it short
<kid> at least as long as i start i like to see what is running and where i have to change something that it runs
<kid> and i think that is not so easy to be seen with the different distribution tools
<kid> and this is for sure the reason of their existence
<kid> but it seems that this point finds not many friends
<reinhard> kid: to make this discuss a perfect one, you should also ask whether to use vi or emacs ;-)
<chillywilly> Debian is pretty low level in that regard
<kid> this is easy for me
<kid> i use emacs since 198x
<kid> even on os/2 and win2k
<kid> so this decision was done decades ago
<reinhard> hmmm
<reinhard> what about
<reinhard> kde vs. gnome?
<kid> don't know enough of these
<reinhard> GPL vs. MIT?
<reinhard> pgp vs. gpg?
<chillywilly> Gnome, GPL! ;)
<chillywilly> gpg!
<kid> i stopped with bare-bone x-manager and motif
<reinhard> there's so many flame wars...
<reinhard> ;-)
<reinhard> seriously
<reinhard> i think i understand what you are after
<kid> i think i have to go back: just install win98, add 3d-card and install quake also on my new machine
<kid> this is where i have no daoubt: best 1st person shooter ever
<reinhard> and i must say that i learned a _lot_ about unix internals since i switched to debian
<kid> at least i know that i'm bad on fast decisions and added a 60 gb drive
<reinhard> lol
<kid> so this is an argument
<reinhard> but i never tried freebsd
<kid> and you think that it does not as much as suse, redhat and these
<reinhard> well just to give you an example
<reinhard> not that i think it means a lot
<reinhard> the default /etc/profile in debian woody is 16 lines
<reinhard> the default /etc/profile in suse 6.4 (old one actually) is 304 lines
<kid> this is exactly what i meaned
<reinhard> debian somehow has the strategy of installing all programs more or less as provided by the author
<chillywilly> Debian is great for learning the nitty gritty, imho
<reinhard> suse sets tons of automatic options, has lots of changes in all kinds of config files and does 100's of automatisms
<chillywilly> RedHat is just a PITA to maintain and Mandrake is too GUI admin happy
<chillywilly> or kid...you can do LFS (Linux From Scrath) ;)
<kid> sorry phone
<chillywilly> Scratch
<reinhard> w/ a default debian install, you have 4 open ports (IIRC)
<kid> one thing for chillywilly
<reinhard> w/ a default suse install, you have about 20 open ports
<revDeke> gentoo
<kid> http://librenix.com/?inode=2312
<revDeke> be a really snake ;)
<chillywilly> yea, or gentoo
<chillywilly> the BSDs are dying anyway ;)
<jbailey> reinhard: Debian's default inetd config sucks.
Action: chillywilly hides
Action: revDeke is against any system that compiles everything from scratch for production work
<jbailey> against?
<jbailey> Like leaning against?
<revDeke> yeah against
<kid> ms supports bsd for rotor and not linux
<revDeke> opposed to
<jbailey> pushing against?
<jbailey> =)
Action: chillywilly smacks derek about
<kid> macosx is bsd
<reinhard> kid: yes, i agree that there are linux systems that don't use GNU
<reinhard> kid: that's exactly why I use GNU/Linux for all the others to distinguish them :-)
<revDeke> much to much the hacker mentality
<revDeke> just asking for maintenance nightmares in my opionon
<revDeke> im not against bsd
<revDeke> im against compiling a system from scratch
<reinhard> however i don't want to get into the next flamewar
<reinhard> :-)
<chillywilly> yes you do
<chillywilly> yo lve this stuff
<chillywilly> er, you love
<chillywilly> ;P
<revDeke> i understand compiling specific applications for specific reasons
Action: chillywilly compiles gtk2 version of gtetrinet right now =)
<revDeke> but it seems silly to compile a whole system from scratch in a production environnment except for the most specific cases
Action: jbailey is away: food
<revDeke> i.e. i think its GREAT that its an option, but at work i would never advocate it
<chillywilly> revDeke: you learn a lot if you do it from scratch
<chillywilly> that's the point
<revDeke> i agree
<chillywilly> to pplunge straight in
<revDeke> i said and will say again, i woudlnt do it for 'production' machines
<chillywilly> but maybe he doesn't want to be that extreme
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> maybe it is best to stick your toes in the water first
<revDeke> that doesnt mean there isnt value in it
<revDeke> if i had a faster machine at home i would try gentoo just to play aroudn and learn more
<chillywilly> I would try it to if I had the HD space...but I don't
<chillywilly> er, too
<chillywilly> oh well
<chillywilly> revDeke: http://download.sourceforge.net/gtetrinet/gtetrinet-0.5.0pre1.tar.gz
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> gtk2 version man
<Mr_You> make world (compiling everything) actually doesn't take too long with freebsd..
<Mr_You> compiles all standard freebsd tree
<chillywilly> nothing wrong with freebsd...I think jcater started with the bsds
<chillywilly> didn't he?
<Mr_You> I'm just saying compiling all of userland is not as big a deal as it might seem.
<Mr_You> unless of course you had to do it for lots of machines ;-)
<Mr_You> not much point in that tho.
<Mr_You> you could just mount and make install if they were the same
<chillywilly> I see absolutely no big different in FreeBSD port vs. Gentoo Linux though
<chillywilly> difference
<chillywilly> er, ports
<chillywilly> blah
<chillywilly> is DCL themable?
<chillywilly> someone is asking in #dcl
<revDeke> yes and no
<Mr_You> everything is themable when you mod the source ;-)
Action: jbailey is back (gone 00:13:34)
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<lupo> hu
<kid> back again
<kid> all ppl calling today: we're living in the center of the big flood in my hometown
<kid> looked like venedig at 6 am this morning
<lupo> where do you come from?
<kid> northern of bavaria/germany
<Mr_You> you're in a flood and you have power?
<kid> yes
<chillywilly> anyone up for tetrinet...I need to test my gtk2 client ;)
<lupo> kid: sersn alder, wo genau?
<kid> but street was under water for about 60cm
<chillywilly> yea...that's it ;)
<kid> cellar is still full of water
<kid> coborch alda
<kid> oder: coburg
<kid> du?
<lupo> hirschaid b. bamberg :)
<kid> lustig
<kid> 40 km
<kid> small world experience
<lupo> :)
<lupo> funny
<kid> no problems in bamberg?
<lupo> kid: none that i know of
<kid> itzgrund full of water from coburg to bamberg
<lupo> okay
<kid> one guy said its like north-sea currently
<lupo> drop your bottle message and i look whether it arrives
<kid> they even have seagulls there
<lupo> hey, who messed with reports???
<lupo> kid: what are you doing here? :)
<kid> who said that bsd will die: ms supports it => http://www.ondotnet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/03/04/rotor.html
<kid> i started some development w/ gnue during my christmas holiday
<kid> and reinhard convinced me that i can only do some usefull stuff with a *ix box
<kid> so until i have some i'm in this chat to get used to the topics and the like
<kid> sometimes asking stupid questions
<lupo> kid: i see. same goes for me.
<lupo> kid: sometimes i even respond to stupid questions, so be careful. :-)
<kid> where is your interest?
<kid> i'm always careful
<lupo> i'm not a good project leader when it comes to software
<kid> (after i had my 3 children)
<lupo> organizing parties, fine, but no software project management
<lupo> you or your wife?
<kid> i have them too - for sure my wife gave them birth
<lupo> okay :)
<lupo> well, i'm here because i'm an excellent "mitläufer"
<kid> and you would like to work on app-server or gui or which part
<lupo> i don't work precisely on something
<lupo> i comment on this or that
<lupo> look how development goes
<lupo> ask questions (which is sometimes really important)
<lupo> try to get familiar with using the gnue tools
<lupo> and actually use them
<kid> then u are further then i
<kid> i was only able to do something with the appserver test-programs
<lupo> you got appserver running?
<kid> trying to catch the data model of app-server
<kid> at least i could run the test programs
<kid> even with win2k
<kid> but it needs some manual work
<kid> so i decided to afford a small new machine for development under unix
<lupo> clever decision
<kid> i'm not at home during the week (in mannheim)
<kid> so i need some machine, my notebook is from the company and has only win2k
<kid> so no other way to start
<lupo> what a pity
<lupo> but hey, as long as it works
<lupo> and you can submit bug reports for win32 :)
<kid> only other chance: to steal my wife/children one of our home-computers
<lupo> hehe
<lupo> i have to do development at home as well
<lupo> because my beloved f***ing university only provides 10 megs of space per user.
<jbailey> lupo: 10 megs *is* an awful lot of essays/
<kid> at least u are still at university and can save your nerves during the day
<lupo> 30 hours/week and 50 new complex facts per day don't make life easier ... i always found it simpler to replicate that what you already know instead of learning something new
<lupo> except for the long holidays, i'd prefer to work
<lupo> lupo: tell that story to the gnue cvs
<lupo> jbailey: tell that story to the gnue cvs
<lupo> argh
<lupo> perhaps i should study something idiot-proof with 10 hours/week
<lupo> maths!
<lupo> :)
<kid> you do this: uni-ba (wirtschafts)informatik?
<lupo> please don'T
<lupo> i still prefer biology
<lupo> for my taste, i know enough about computers, so i'm not that interested in computer sciences
<kid> stupid and over-curios question: what is the connection between biology and an erp-system?
<lupo> lol
<lupo> it has to do with
<lupo> well
<lupo> i do some work for the FSF Europe (http://www.fsfeurope.org/)
<kid> probably would have been necessary for all these biotech cash-burners
<lupo> and working with these people, i learned that working together doesn't require leadership, but excellence
<lupo> sure, i'm not excellent, but trying to become it is more important that being a good leader
<lupo> (excellence includes vast knowledge)
<lupo> so i went where i thought i could help a bit
<lupo> that was GNUe
<lupo> and besides, i do some professional work (for real moneeeeeey)
<lupo> i have to design a custom ERP application within the next months
<lupo> i might have to write a customer relationship management
<lupo> and i like free software
<kid> for which brache?
<kid> branche
<lupo> kläranlagenbau
<lupo> um
<kid> i know i guy working for this branche - but on the process-control part of the software chain
<kid> was working with him onb some projects
<lupo> i think that's "purification plant construction business"
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<lupo> yes, i know one too. that's why i got the contract :)
<kid> but your guy is not from freising?
<lupo> nope
<kid> would have been too much randomness
<lupo> true
<kid> if you have to beat dead some time, this is very funny (german only): http://www.ruhr.de/home/nathan/tagebuch/tdsl-tagebuch.html
<lupo> is wuerzburg on your way from/to mannheim?
<kid> yes - but i go by train
<lupo> oh
<lupo> what do you do there? working?
<kid> sure
Action: lupo is very intrusive today
<kid> to expensive to go their just for fun
<lupo> i know what mannheim looks like
<lupo> and i would only go there if i was paid
<kid> the "quadrate" only?
<lupo> yep
<kid> it's not that bad
<kid> but i see nearly nothing
<kid> living in a small flat 50 m from the company
<lupo> i try to remember which high-tech companies are in mannheim
<kid> abb, siemens, ...
<kid> but you wont know mine (even after your next question)
<kid> but - guessed right - it's software development
<lupo> what kind of software?
<lupo> btw, what has siemens got to do with high tech? *g*
<kid> lol
<kid> this would be a too good hint - not unrelated with erp stuff
<kid> currently no application-development but system-development
<lupo> systems development? do you work together with the university?
<kid> no
<kid> we have some guys from "business academy"
<lupo> because they got quite a lot to do with systems devel
<lupo> BA students?
<kid> yes
<lupo> INA?
<kid> what's this
<lupo> a company in mannheim :)
<kid> no
<lupo> just a random guess
<lupo> because they have a lot of IT engineers from the BA
<kid> we also have some
<kid> but i have only one (good) in my team
<kid> he's now on his diploma thesis
<kid> as they call it
<kid> even if its now - compared to university standards
<lupo> old story
<kid> yes - but new for me
<kid> only knew university and fachhochschule before
<lupo> without being hypocritical, when i compare myself to our CS students in Wue, i wonder what the hell they are doing all day long
<lupo> and BA is supposed to be "below" a university degree
<kid> CS?
<lupo> cs = computer science
<lupo> not counter strike!
<kid> ah
<kid> sure not - quake or nothing
<lupo> *g*
<lupo> these guys stumble over if's and while's
<lupo> how are they supposed to develop complex information systems?
<lupo> ts
<kid> my background is also not cs - i'm process engineer, so i can't help you with this question
<kid> btw: what kind of unix do you run?
<lupo> so, what's your interest in gnue, being a process engineer?
<lupo> i use debian gnu/linux 3.0
<lupo> i have used the solaris shell, so that is my maximum "other unix" experience
<kid> process engineer can consult/code for process-industry companies and they have/need erp systems
<kid> it's really that simple
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<lupo> what constitutes a "process-industry company"?
<kid> i was especially in food, beverage, brewery
<kid> process-industrie is "verfahrenstechnische industrie" - counterpart is "fertigungsindustrie/maschinenbau"
<lupo> okay
<kid> so your customer is also process-industry
<kid> even if one might say that they handle "stückgut"
<lupo> well, they have a pool of "modules" for each plant which can be combined together in a couple of ways
<kid> but you are not in the process-control-part?
<lupo> nope
<kid> sad
<lupo> the erp system comes from the other direction
<lupo> but i assume that computer-supported process control might get a topic in that company
<kid> always this obsolete differtiation between technical and commercial software
<lupo> i agree
<kid> then you can remember me and i can remember my old cod connections
<lupo> i see that there is no need to seperate them, but it's a question whether it is commercially viable
<kid> i was working on integration of these parts for years before i startet my current job
<kid> working as consultant/coder/integrator/deployer
<kid> so i can write a book about this special topic
<kid> but - what a pity - not about more intersésting topics
<lupo> what is more interesting, in your opinion?
<kid> i like the integration part : this peace from process control to material management and production planning
<kid> this is where i want to work again
<kid> this is a big white spot in todays software tools
<kid> some say they have solutions, some might really have, but i never found an affordable one in 6 years
<kid> affordable at least for non nestle/unilever/...
<lupo> hm
<lupo> i might talk this customer into process control :)
<kid> this means some money which you will miss for "your" part
<kid> so first get this running
<lupo> i get a fixed amount, so it doesn't matter for me
<kid> and then awake some interest about automatic data delivery from in-plant-control
<lupo> good idea :)
<kid> yes, i even made this sometimes: beeing my own sales clerk
<kid> u know whether it's ok to spoil this log here or shouldn't this be a private querry
<lupo> first of all, he knows how business works
<kid> who?
<lupo> my customers
<lupo> customer, singular
<lupo> he's an open guy
<kid> that's good, than they can pay you
<lupo> so i could even tell him about this conversation, because i know that sales talk doesn't work on him, and no matter which way i propose a process control system, he will evaluate it on the base of facts, not of buzzwords and happytalk
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<kid> this is perfect, these guys like engineers
<kid> so listen his words: you are paid to learn from him
<lupo> he is an engineer and got procurist only by accident :)
<lupo> thank you
<lupo> such advice helps a lot
<kid> i had some customers that learned me more than 1 semester at university
<kid> at least i started to code as a student so i didn't waste much time for lessons but learned something usefull
<lupo> my daily slogan: "do something useful instead of botany."
<kid> i can subscribe this
<kid> and i even had a perfect excusion: i had to earn money because i had the feed two children even as a student
<lupo> tough
<kid> now the two girls are bigger then their mom
<lupo> i'm also bigger than my mom :)
<lupo> how old are they?
<kid> the boy is 12, the girls 14 and 16
<lupo> he, too young for me :)
<kid> hopefully
<lupo> i wouldn't dare
<kid> this is what i was trying to say
<kid> i always have my shotgun loaded
<kid> and can pick it up from dm6
<lupo> nothing below 18, that's a question of honor and personal integrity
<lupo> btw, i love shotguns
<kid> and leaves you the girl-students anyway
<lupo> i sometimes visit the psychology lectures, 85% female, that's what i call fun :)
<kid> problem might be conversation with these special kind of ppl
<lupo> conversation can be learned :)
<kid> i know - my wife is also much more in these "weak" sciences
<lupo> i think you can do some small talk with ppl and find out whether they are idiots within five minutes
<kid> i think there are two good ways:
<kid> 1) try to behave stupid for some time and learn as long as the other ppl underestimate you
<kid> (best in groups)
<kid> 2) be very hard and aggressive from start on, you learn more from ppl if they are under pressare
<kid> (like mtbf computation)
<lupo> hm
<lupo> my tactics was "start with small talk, then raise the bar bit by bit"
<kid> what height did we reach now?
<lupo> so you can see how clever they are / to which point, and how far conversation is possible and makes sense
<lupo> well, we've started with flooding, continued with ERP and talk about talking right now, whereas the latter is recursive and requires significant imagination
<lupo> so you get an AAA rating from me :)
<kid> thx a lot
<kid> this was the oberfranken-bonus
<lupo> somehow :)
<lupo> perhaps with siesel and reinhard, we could open up the dark lustenau-coburg-wuerzburg-cologne connection
<lupo> the dark side of the GNUe force
<lupo> anyone else here from southern germany? :)
<kid> i would say that a have to add some useful addition before i would allow myself to feel part of this connection
<kid> btw: you drive by car from hirschaid to WÜ?
<lupo> you could contribute nasty questions
<lupo> kid: yes
<lupo> kid: on work days, i've stayed at a friend's couch, but since december 1st, i have my own little flat
<lupo> but i still drive to/from hirschaid on weekends
<kid> if you would drive by train we could met in train
<kid> i always have BA-WÜ
<kid> om
<kid> on monday morning and friday night
<lupo> hm
<lupo> on friday, when does your train arrive from wue/mannheim?
<kid> if everything is okay i'm about 8.30 pm in ba
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<kid> but often i have delays
<kid> and than it's about 1 hr later
<lupo> that's a little bit late for talking
<kid> so i'm home most of the time after 11 pm
<kid> yes, but with this small distance it should work out one day
<lupo> right
<kid> you know weyermann malzfabrik in bamberg?
<lupo> yep
<lupo> that's on the other side of the rail station plus a couple of meters down the rails
<kid> i was there for some "actions"
<kid> among others for a process control system
<kid> it's still running - '95 os/2 installation
<lupo> cool
<lupo> so
<kid> also at "bamberger malzfabrik", was a LIMS there
<lupo> i could give you my phone number and you can call me when your train is on time
<kid> ok
<lupo> that's 0171 700 31 48
<kid> but best i can offer is a 1 hr meeting at the station
<kid> ok, thx
<lupo> on the other side of the station is a great pub, so we could go there
<kid> better then the mcdonalds
<lupo> my personal schnitzel palace
<lupo> with the coolest bar keeper ever
<kid> sounds good
<kid> and one can still afford beer in oberfranken-pubs
<kid> other than in rest of this country
<lupo> yep
<lupo> tip: never go to munich :)
<kid> i lived near munich for 18 years
<kid> so this is what i know for sure
<lupo> 3.90eur / 0.2 l of cola
<kid> and unkind/arrogant ppl everywhere
<kid> never liked to be oberbayer
<lupo> "and unkind/arrogant ppl everywhere" --> okay, you've really been there :)
<kid> u ever visited coburg?
<lupo> i was twice or so in coburg, visiting the theatre. but i didn't have much chance to see more than the central bus station :)
<kid> you should spend more time
<kid> for sure bamberg is a very high standard
<kid> but coburg is also very nice in its best places
<kid> pl
<lupo> yes
<lupo> why not
<kid> ppl are a little bit funny there
<kid> not exactly funny - "eigenbrötlerisch"
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<lupo> siesel: cologne on line!
<kid> living with 3 borders around for so many years
<siesel> Hi lupo
<lupo> kid: 3 borders?
<siesel> hi all
<lupo> siesel: good new year
<kid> look at an old map: ddr was in east/west/north
<kid> we could only go to bamberg
<siesel> lupo: good new year to you too
<dsmith> Howdy people.  What do you guys know about ActivePython?  Does it let you do windozey things like ActivePerl does?
<lupo> kid: let me look, i have an old map around here
<kid> yes, do
<kid> i'll remember always
<lupo> kid: right. looks like tettau or hünfeld.
<kid> coburg is on the "buckel" westwards from tettau
<lupo> i see
<kid> my father driving with us to the border
<kid> showing the "klassenfeind"
<lupo> were you in coburg when the iron curtain opened?
<kid> no, living near munich then
<kid> only on holiday at my parents
<lupo> a friend of mine was in neustadt (SPD member), and he said "what a world, you can't even rely on commies anymore" :-)
<kid> ppl in coburg where among the 1st beeing not so happy with this
<lupo> what happened?
<kid> i know the neustadt oberbürgermeister
<kid> at this time biggest problem was with the visitors
<lupo> (i was six years old then)
<kid> 100,000 ppl on 1 weekend
<lupo> uh
<kid> in a 45,000 ppl town
<lupo> what have they done in CO/Neustadt?
<kid> now it's the economy, no longer "zonenrandförderung"
<kid> but "subvention" for thüringen
<kid> they were buying empty the whole city
<kid> mother of my wife is boss of a supermarket
<lupo> and they grabbed everything they could get?
<kid> they changed whole portfolio at this time
<kid> and bought each 3er BMW available
<lupo> with what money?
<lupo> this is insane
<kid> they could change 1:1, this was some big present
<kid> respecting the value their money had before
<kid> whereas i bought an old citroen at the some vendor
<kid> but mine was not owned by the bank
<lupo> ts
<kid> i was in neustadt often as child for playing handball: they had *4* teams in our series
<kid> these are the hardest ppl i know
<lupo> lol
<kid> niederbayern suggest they are hard but they are wimps compared with NEC-ppl
<kid> and they have a crude dialect
<lupo> niederbayern are wimps with a crude dialect, indeed
<lupo> but hey, i'm tolerant
<lupo> i even talk to oberpfälzer
<kid> me too, just personal remarks
<lupo> their girls' accent is especially sweet
<kid> oberpfälzer are also tricked by southern bavarians but they dont care so much
<kid> wo die hasen hosen hasen
<lupo> und die hosen husen hasen
<kid> perfect slang
<kid> u ever tried hurd?
<lupo> and there are still ppl who claim that we didn't learn anything in primary school
<lupo> nope
<lupo> i seriously wanted to test-drive hurd
<kid> it's only about this f*ing 24hrs/day problem
<lupo> but as long as there is no idiot-proof way of installing it, i won't try
<lupo> yep
<lupo> my former school comrades have proposed to create a 25-hours-day: 25 hours of work, -1 hour of sleep
<kid> but if we could choose, than we should add more than one hr
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<lupo> we could create the "variable work day"
<kid> and also the "variable holi-day"
<lupo> work as long as you want, sleep as long as you want
<lupo> perhaps we could stretch the time-space continuum for that purpose
<kid> and then go out and bash the mamoot
<kid> mammoth
<lupo> and somebody said capitalism is bad... look, we'd even change time for this system!
<kid> it would be ok for me if we start with something easier: beaming
<kid> this would give me a few additional hrs per week
<kid> you read science fiction?
<lupo> let's divide this job: i'll do that time thing, you can work on beaming
<lupo> currently not much
<kid> but you like this genre?
<lupo> i prefer the apocalyptic ones
<kid> john brunner
<kid> ?
<lupo> lemme see, something from him is on my "got to read this" list
<kid> this will be: morgenwelt
<kid> shafe blicken auf
<kid> schockwellenreiter
<kid> but them on top of the list
<kid> but don't read the 1st two if you are not in a stable condition
<lupo> shockwave rider
<lupo> indeed
<kid> this is the most "optimistic"
<lupo> hey, hasn't he got something to do with A Clockwerk Orange?
<kid> but the most apocalyptic experience is morgenwelt
<kid> no, this was anthony burgess
<lupo> hm
<lupo> i found something on google which connected him to ACE
<lupo> "the bad thing about the web is that any idiot can put up a web page"
<kid> then i don't know about this connection
<kid> yes
<kid> and i have the "clockwork orange" and i'm as sure as possible
<lupo> google tells me brunner is quite dystopian
<lupo> i don't mind
<lupo> is he crazier than 1984 and Brave New World combined?
<kid> what's that`?
<lupo> dystopian is the contrary of utopian
<kid> morgenwelt (stand on sansibar) had a very modern style
<kid> i don't think this is right
<kid> he choosed a few problems, separated them and extrapolated each single one of them
<kid> stand on sansibar  => overpopulation
<kid> sheep look up => environment polution
<kid> shock wave rider => surveillance by computers
<lupo> damn, if i hadn't to read this "introduction to physical chemistry" first
<kid> for sure he had some bad book that he wrote just to earn money
<kid> get "morgenwelt"
<kid> this is an unforgetable experience
<lupo> what was that with "a stable condition"?
<kid> at least was one for me
<kid> but not a happy one
<kid> so be prepared
<lupo> i'll read it in spring, when nothing can make my mind struggle
<kid> this book is very pessimistic
<kid> thats good
<kid> at least one of it's common topics is about the possibilities that strong ppl have to change something
<kid> so this is his - most burried - message
<lupo> so he spreads a bit of hope?
<kid> not in morgenwelt and schafe blicken auf
<kid> but in schockwellenreiter
<kid> so should read this last as your gratification
<kid> problem is that SF is most of the time translated badly to german
<kid> same as for hard boiled crime writing
<kid> so it's often worth to read in english
<lupo> my english is quite fluent, so i don't assume any problems
<kid> this is good, then get it in english
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<lupo> kid: frightening cover
<kid> but good english authors have quite a vocabulary
<kid> i only now the german one
<kid> one sin of my youth: to read this in german
<lupo> :)
<lupo> one sin of my youth: to read marshal mcluhan's understanding media in german
<kid> this i don't know
<lupo> mom
<lupo> # When Marshall McLuhan first coined the phrases "global village" and "the medium is the message" in 1964, no-one could have predicted today's information-dependent planet. No-one, that is, except for a handful of science fiction writers and Marshall McLuhan. This work was written 20 years before the PC revolution and 30 years before the rise of the Internet. Yet McLuhan's insights into our engagement with a variety of media led to a complete rethinking 
<lupo> Synopsis from Amazon
<kid> ah
<lupo> He believed that the message of electronic media foretold the end of humanity as it was known. In 1964, this looked like the paranoid babblings of a madman. In our 21st century digital world, the madman looks quite sane.  
<kid> so this would be a similar phrase for brunner who thought of trojan horses at this time
<kid> sounds interesting
<kid> have to add this to my list
<lupo> my incomplete literature lists are on-line: http://sledge.bnv-bamberg.de/lernen/ and http://sledge.bnv-bamberg.de/books/
<kid> which is somewhat smaller now after xmas
<lupo> the book is really crazy
<kid> so youre nick is sledge and you are driving a lupo?
<lupo> my nick was sledge, is now lupo and i drive a polo
<lupo> :)
<kid> so not that bad
<kid> we also share some music-favorites
<lupo> trust me, you wouldn't want to see a complete list of my MP3s
<lupo> my current playlist in xmms consists of Wizo, Stefan Raab, Seeed and King Kool Savas
<lupo> so it's punk, stupidity, near-pop and sexism :)
<kid> i was stuck w/ queen: music started for me w/ these geniuses
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<Vee2d2> it's just not easy getting use to that bug zapper noise and the sight of those giant donuts coming down from nowhere..
<dsmith> Any gnue people live near DC?  I'll be in the area for a week.  It might be nice to get together for dinner or something.
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<revDeke> hmm netgod got disconnected...
<revDeke> netgodess perhaps ;)
<revDeke> dsmith: Dr. Stanley Klein and Neil Tiffin are both in DC area
<revDeke> neither one is in irc often if you send a mail to the gnue list im sure they would reply
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<dsmith> revDeke: Cool, thanks.
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<chillywilly> hey freaks
<chillywilly> how's it hanging?
<chillywilly> kid: get the Hurd CDs
<chillywilly> if you wanna install it
<chillywilly> try, http://copyleft.co.nz
<chillywilly> r maybe
<chillywilly> http://www.copyleft.co.nz
<chillywilly> http://www.copyleft.co.nz/hurd.html
<kid> thx
<kid> just in query with lupo
<chillywilly> come play tetrinet ppl!
<chillywilly> ;)
<lupo> tetrinet addict :)
<chillywilly> damn skippy
<chillywilly> you wanna play?
<lupo> i have a good conversation with kid and i have to type in my lyrics, so i'm already occupied :/
<chillywilly> blah
<chillywilly> excuses
<kid> can't find u in top 10
<chillywilly> you are hereby banned form my tetrinet server...j/k ;)
<kid> must be program error
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<kid> as long as u don't ban me from this: http://www.clanservers.net/threewave2.asp
<chillywilly> yo are banned
<kid> from jolt?
<chillywilly> kidding I didn't even follow yor rl
<chillywilly> url
Action: chillywilly is away: bbiab
Action: chillywilly is back (gone 00:03:48)
<kid> been away for long
<kid> btw: q3 isn't my RL
<chillywilly> hmmm?
<kid> this was in my url: a link to a q3 server provider
<lupo> chillywilly: is there a java version of tetrinet?
<chillywilly> dunno
<chillywilly> there are gtk and winders clients
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<chillywilly> hi jeff
<jbailey> Heya Dan.
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<jbailey> Do you have this snow there too?
<kid> n8 @ll
<chillywilly> we don't have any snow right now
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<chillywilly> we're supposed to get sme tomorrow
<chillywilly> er, some
<chillywilly> l8rs
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<jcater> I hate bugzilla
<jcater> I hate it
[19:40] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
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<Vee2d2> http://www.gnod.net/ is interesting... 
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<derek> jcater: any reason you use bugzilla if you hate it so much?
<jcater> um, yeah
<jcater> that's what KDE's website uses
<derek> im sorry
<jcater> me too
<jcater> :(
<derek> its one of the most evil programs on the planet
<derek> its horrid to get information out of
<derek> its a pain to get data into it
<derek> and its a bitch to configure to boot
--- Sat Jan  4 2003