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<ajmitch> hi
<psu> hi
<jcater> word up, peeps
<ra3vat> hi
[01:44] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<psu> hi jcater
<psu> any feedback on the wxpython problems?
<jcater> ?
Action: jcater is knee-deep in Zope stuff at the moment
<psu> looks as if wx 2.4 is royally broken with all versions of GNUe 
<jcater> sigh
<psu> we can just do a "don't upgrade" warning for the moment 
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> I haven't looked
<jcater> but I wonder if fixing stuff will break older compatability?
<ajmitch> psu: already harassed jbailey with a debian bug on it ;)
Action: jcater crosses his fingers and hopes not
<ajmitch> it is a royal pain
<jcater> what's happeining?
<ajmitch> not much here
<jcater> err
<jcater> I mean what errors?
<ajmitch> none with cvs deginer & wx 2.4 that i know of
<jcater> psu: fwiw, I don't think I'm going w/plone at work
<ajmitch> hmm?
<psu> jcater: any reasons why not I should know about?
<psu> "Because of the documented exploits?"
<jcater> lol
<jcater> no
<jcater> I already have some stuff done in zope
<jcater> and plone basically tries to be its own producty
<jcater> product
<jcater> so that screws up my existing install
<jcater> plus the developers are quite arrogant and elitist
<jcater> :)
<psu> this is one of my beefs with CMS 
<psu> which is they tend to want to manage all your content
<jcater> yeah
<psu> which is understandable, I suppose
<jcater> maybe
<psu> but sometimes mix-n-match is better
<jcater> but like my sales rep account center at work
<jcater> I really want content management for news, articles, etc
<psu> especially with legacy stuff to include
<jcater> but their online reporting stuff (that pulls from our sales database)
<jcater> can't be a part of the CMS
<jcater> I looked at ZPT (now CMF) 3 yrs ago when I did this sales site
<jcater> and fought w/it for a few months
<jcater> and gave up
<jcater> I quickly saw myself doing this w/plone too
<psu> Of course, portal technology was meant to solve all of these problems, right?
<jcater> :-/
<jcater> unfortunately, the only semi-decent ecommerce app I've seen on top of zope
<jcater> is based on plone iirc
<jcater> but it has a few design decisions that sucks for my needs :(
<jcater> like all products are stored internally in the zope instance
<jcater> as opposed to being able to pull them from a database
<jcater> that's cool if you need to manage 20-30 itesm
<jcater> I have about 800
<jcater> that's not so nice
<jcater> so I will stick with my custom PHP job for another year, I suppose :)
<jcater> if someone was starting a CMS-centric site from scratch, though, I'd still have them look at plone
<jcater> fwiw
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<frayed> anybody know where I can find documentation for gnue besides what's on the gnue site?
<ajmitch> stuff in cvs
<frayed> I just pored through most of that, too.
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> ah, you might be wanting the developer's guides
<frayed> I read through the forms one.  Problem is, it's mostly "[TODO]"
<ajmitch> heh yeah
<ajmitch> so what else do you want to know? :)
<frayed> whenever I see docs like that, I itch to write them myself.  Problem is, first I need to know what I'm talking about.
<ajmitch> you are a rare individual - wanting to write decent docs... ;)
<frayed> well, basically, I want to create a window that has two frames.  In the top frame I want basic contact information, and in the bottom frame I want detailed information.
<ajmitch> right, so a master-detail form it is
<frayed> made one with the wizard.  :)
Action: ajmitch was just typing about that ;)
<frayed> what I got was a form that showed a single record, and to see all of the detailed records I had to navigate.
<frayed> have you ever used Goldmine?
<ajmitch> nope
<frayed> hmm....
<ajmitch> you're wanting something like access' datasheet view? :)
<ajmitch> how many fields in the detail section?
<frayed> well, there's none in the database right now.  :)  But conceivably, thousands.
<frayed> The detailed section should show it as a bunch of rows with scrollbars.
<ajmitch> fields, not records 
<frayed> duh
<ajmitch> you can set it to have a bunch of rows
<frayed> I think the test table I made has 4-5 fields
<frayed> (i forgot already, and I made the table half an hour ago, heh)
<ajmitch> whereby you lay out the fields across the page, and edit the 'rows' property of the containing block
<frayed> hm, for some reason I can only insert one datasource.
<ajmitch> odd
Action: ajmitch hasn't used designer much since 0.4.x
<frayed> I'm guessing it's probly something to do with wx 2.4.  The stuff I read on the site indicated that the thing was a lot more functional than I'm seeing right now.
<ajmitch> one would assume so
<ajmitch> let me quickly downgrade wxpython
Action: ajmitch waits...
<frayed> I wish I hadn't skimmed the xml explanations.  ;)
<ajmitch> sigh, broken stuff
<frayed> I got the impression from the wxPython mailing list archives that wxPython isn't as determined to maintain backward compatibility as the main wxWindows project is
Action: ajmitch downgrades another step :)
<frayed> hell, maybe if I screw with this xml file long enough I'll just figure it out.  heh.
<ajmitch> lol
<frayed> ok, I've made two datasources (editing the xml file) and the logic block.  Within the logic block I've made two blocks and filled them both in with the appropriate fields.
<ajmitch> ok :)
<frayed> Now I want to declare the master-detail relationship before dealing with layout.
<ajmitch> got to add 2 datasources
Action: ajmitch has not editing the xml much :(
<frayed> 2 more?
<ajmitch> well, 2
<frayed> I've got two, but there's no relationship between them.  They are two arbitrary data sources right now.
<ajmitch> ok
Action: ajmitch is still trying to learn a bit of the forms stuff as well :)
<frayed> aha, I found it in another .gfd file I made with the wizard.  :)
<ajmitch> ok
<frayed> ok, so I opened the .gfd file I was hand-editing in designer.  The logic block *should* be right since I just ripped most of it from pregenerated stuff.
<ajmitch> yup
<frayed> so now how do I lay it out?  :)
<frayed> there's no layout right now at all.
<ajmitch> umm... :)
<ajmitch> as i said, i haven't touched forms much since 0.4.x, and the file format has radically changed for 0.5.x :)
<frayed> aha
<frayed> I think I can hack around for awhile and get the hang of it.  :)
<ajmitch> ok, have fun
<frayed> so am I supposed to put all the fields on one page?  Both the master fields and the detail fields?
<ajmitch> detail fields go in a block
<frayed> maybe I said that wrong.  In the layout, where you put the edit controls, am I supposed to put the edit controls for both the master fields and detail fields on the same page?
<ajmitch> yeah
<frayed> if I were to add to the documentation, how would I get it back to the project?
<ajmitch> forms-support@gnuenterprise.org
<ajmitch> gnue-dev@gnu.org
<ajmitch> or talk to someone on irc like derek, jamest, or jcater
<frayed> success!
<frayed> the master-detail relationship is clear on the form.  :)
<ajmitch> excellent :)
<frayed> I guess I'll just hit the record changes in openoffice and make my changes and when I run into someone in irc I'll just mention it then.
<frayed> I'm cursing myself for not taking notes when I read all the Mozilla api docs, and I don't plan on making that mistake again.  ;)
<ajmitch> :)
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<Arturas> Hello
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<chillywilly> morning all
<Arturas> morning :)
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<chillywilly> [09:44:21] <chillywilly> jcater: doesn't kword read M$ .doc?
<chillywilly> [09:44:35] <chillywilly> cause my kword doesn't have a filter for it
<chillywilly> [09:44:46] <chillywilly> apparently
<chillywilly> [09:45:00] <chillywilly> and some smartass in #debian-kde was like well M$ doesn't provide specs for it
<chillywilly> [09:45:15] <chillywilly> erm, I should've asked in #gnuenterprise
<chillywilly> [09:45:17] <chillywilly> woops
Nick change: reinhard_ -> reinhard
<jcater> chillywilly: kword isn't the best at importing things
<chillywilly> hmmm
<jcater> I think it'll import basic word docs
<jcater> but I wouldn't recommend it for general conversion stuff
<jcater> though
<jcater> that was .2 versions ago
<chillywilly> why the heck don't they all share import filters?
<chillywilly> well I don't even have a filter
<jcater> chillywilly: btw, you don't have to cross-post :)
<chillywilly> I am using orth's from #debian-kde debs
<chillywilly> well someone here may had some ther insight
<chillywilly> this is the most knowlegeable of places ya know ;)
<jcater> true dat
<dsmith> Have you guys heard what plan9 does with m$ .doc files?  They found that the internal structure is similar toa FAT file system, so they mount them!
<chillywilly> really?
<dsmith> You can then cd arouund and look at the indvifual components.
<chillywilly> can I mount them as a lookback on GNU/Linux? ;)
<jcater> thats, um
<jcater> interesting
<dsmith> It's really flipped out.
<dsmith> It's not *exactly* fat.
<dsmith> SImilar
<ra3vat> all ms files use compound storage
<ra3vat> it is documented
<chillywilly> erm, I meant loopback
<ra3vat> there are few libs to read such a file under *nix
<ra3vat> xls, doc, mdb use it
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<dsmith> Ahh, it's called "olefs"
<chillywilly> seems they use libwv2
<chillywilly> for the doc import filter
<chillywilly> I don't see that package anywhere :(
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<StyXman> hi all
<chillywilly> yo
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<Arturas> bye
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<StyXman> hi again
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<StyXman> would it too bad if PREV/NEXTRECORD also triggered entry's PRE-FOCUSOUT/IN?
<jcater> that's what On-Switch is for
<StyXman> jcater: is that new?
<StyXman> seems like not...
<StyXman> jcater: zanx
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<StyXman> is there anything like 'pre-switchout' and 'pre-switchin'?
<jcater> the block-level Pre-FocusIn and Pre-FocusOut do that
<StyXman> jcater: but does that work when changing of record?
<jcater> in 0.5.x+, block-level triggers work at the record level
<StyXman> ah, I see
<StyXman> ok, we'll wait till aa finishes the porting
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<Chipaca> hi all
<psu> hi Chipaca
<Chipaca> psu: hi
Nick change: Chipaca -> ChipAway
<StyXman> [04 [04 [04 [04 [04 56] 56] StyXman StyXman StyXman StyXman StyXman Pre-FocusIn Pre-FocusIn Pre-FocusIn Pre-FocusInpeloterodigital/index.php?q=simp   StyXman that zanx when there there there there anything anything anything anything anything anything anything anything broadband broadband broadband broadband broadband broadband broadband broadband broadband broadband broadband broadband 5 5 changing changing changing changi
<StyXman> u-ups
<chillywilly> what the hell?
<StyXman> [04:56] <StyXman> is there anything like 'pre-switchout' and 'pre-switchin'?
<StyXman> [04:57] <jcater> the block-level Pre-FocusIn and Pre-FocusOut do that
<StyXman> oh -god
<StyXman> freaking mouse
<StyXman> got insane
<chillywilly> you should be banned
<chillywilly> ;)
<StyXman> yes, I gess.
<StyXman> shit happes, I guess
<StyXman> h-a-p-p-e-n-s
<chillywilly> not here
<StyXman> nope? then I'm on the wrong channel
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<ChipAway> what attribute can I use to tell a widget not to partake in the tab madness?
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<StyXman> don't try this at home:
<StyXman> >>> for i in range(15):
<StyXman> ...     print "%d %.0f" % (i, i+.5)
<StyXman> :)
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Action: Chipaca goes over to #python to complain
<psu> hmm
<psu> don;t tell 'em we sent you
<Chipaca> buaaahhh!! C does the same!
<psu> ;-)
<psu> Ok, shall I do an official "steer clear of wxpython +GNUe until next release" advisory
<psu> to mail list & website?
<psu> May save people some pain (esp. sid users)
<ajmitch> that means steer clear of designer
<chillywilly> it b0rked right?
<chillywilly> wxpython in sid
<ajmitch> not totally :)
<jcater> but what is it doing?
Action: jcater is still rather confused
<jcater> but haven't had time to upgrade to find out
<psu> as far as i can tell from btami, the only problem is 
<psu> that wxpython used to do an import string but doesn;t any more
<ajmitch> i can't tell if it's designer bugs or wxpython stuff now (with current CVS)
<psu> gnue code didn;t used to import string as wxpython already had
<jcater> um
<chillywilly> ajmitch: you're fired
<jcater> that makes 0 sense
<ajmitch> but i can't do anything much with the tree in the object navigator except expand it
<psu> ok
Action: psu doesn't bug-squish himself
<jcater> we've never knowingly relied on wxPython to import string
<jcater> if so, that was pure accident
<ajmitch> jcater: yeah, it's the unknown stuff that gets us :)
<jcater> and is certainly a bug on our part
<psu> a dormant bug until now
<chillywilly> so where's the frellin' patch?
<chillywilly> ;)
<psu> chillywilly: btami reckons already in CVS
<psu> it just breaks at least 0.4.2 and 0.5.0-pre
<psu> allegedly
<chillywilly> if you use a newer wxpython
Action: psu gets his news from irc logs, so make of that what you will
Action: chillywilly gets his news from KCs...so... :P
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<ajmitch> jcater: is the obj navigator tree meant to be right-clickable?
<ajmitch> (for adding of new datasources, blocks, etc) :)
<ajmitch> or is that functionality access thru right-clicking on the form in the layout editor?
<jcater> ajmitch: honestly, I probably broke that in some 0.5.0 changes
<jcater> dunno
<ajmitch> ok
Action: ajmitch would like to (see added|add) some ui changes in that area, to make things simpler
<chillywilly> go to it ajmitch ;)
<chillywilly> use the source
<ajmitch> i might just do that :P
<chillywilly> I don't think jcater will object to some patches :P
<ajmitch> he will if they suck ;)
<jcater> I have been known to reject sucky patches :)
<chillywilly> sure, but you have a proven track record
<jcater> but if someone patches 0.4.x w/the import stirng thing
<jcater> I'll make time to release 0.4.4
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> hmm
<ajmitch> <Remosi> PHPNuke is known to be less secure than a nude freshman in a gay bar
<psu> heh
<chillywilly> hehe
<ajmitch> interesting comparison, that
<chillywilly> true dat
Action: psu notes we have been phpnuke-free for 6 months
<ajmitch> thankfully
<psu> real soon now, I'll get the www.gnu.org/software/gnue & www.gnuenterprise.org sites in synch
<psu> and then the world's our lobster
<chillywilly> mmm, lobster
<psu> might even throw in a new look & feel if I can find one that doesn;t look naff
<chillywilly> naff?
<chillywilly> you brits have some interesting sayings
Action: psu was going to say "blows goats" but is trying to be more restrained
<psu> after you chewed barbicane out on wopn for using naughty words
<psu> ;-)
<chillywilly> HEH
<chillywilly> scotty was listening then....he usually does his show at night when kids are in bed
<chillywilly> but he doesn't read the IRC
<chillywilly> he can't read that well yet
<chillywilly> he's just learning
<ajmitch> hehe
<chillywilly> he can type his name though
Action: ajmitch hopes he uses better language than chillywilly! :)
<chillywilly> and spell cat and dog and such
Action: chillywilly doesn't have that bad of a potty mouth
<chillywilly> did you hear out bumper psu?
<chillywilly> er, our
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> http://www.libertyetech.com/chillywilly.ogg
<ajmitch> ROFL
Action: ajmitch doesn't have recording equipment here, sorry
<chillywilly> all I used was a PC mic
<ajmitch> yeah, i dunno where mine is :)
<chillywilly> sure ;)
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<w4t4n> hi
<w4t4n> where can i find info about companys or people using gnuenterprise?
<chillywilly> ask jcater ;)
<w4t4n> thanks, i will try... :D
<chillywilly> don't we have something on the website?
<chillywilly> well t he 2 companies jcater is VP os use GNUe
<chillywilly> I know that much
<chillywilly> and KSU somewhat
<chillywilly> and some clients of jamest
<chillywilly> but that's all heresay on my part
<chillywilly> consult them for a more accurate account
<chillywilly> ;)
<w4t4n> thanks, 
<w4t4n> it's a good start for me...
<chillywilly> possibly derek is trying to get int incorporated in Marcopia County gov't
<chillywilly> Via Libre a non-profit in Argentina uses it
<chillywilly> ajmitch is starting to use it at work
<chillywilly> ummm
<chillywilly> that's about all I can think of at the moment...and anyone feel free to correct me
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> or chime in
<w4t4n> thank you again, it is a good help...
<chillywilly> no problem
<w4t4n> hmmm, Via Libre seems to have a good product...
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<chillywilly> only via libre guy here right now is Chipaca...but I haven't heard much out of him today
<Chipaca> I'm sort of away
<Chipaca> brain half baked by the sun
<chillywilly> :P
<havoc> chillywilly: hi
<chillywilly> howdy
<Chipaca> but yes, we're using gnue in our main work right now
<w4t4n> what kind of work? 
<Chipaca> w4t4n: developing and implementing a free ERD for the local market
<w4t4n> hm, i'm working with postgresql and php, but actually we need to develop a cross plataform aplication different without web...
<jcater> my friend, you have come to the right place
<chillywilly> hehe
<jcater> 'cause that's our specialty
<jcater> chillywilly: you forgot the HUGE bookstore using GNUe for all its day-to-day needs
<jcater> huge = 1 employee and 900 sq ft :)(
<chillywilly> my bad
<Chipaca> what's 900 sq ft in real dimensions?
<chillywilly> pretty frellin' big
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> kinda
<jcater> 30 feet x 30 feet
<jcater> or 10 meters x 10 meters
<jcater> err, wait
<jcater> was that conversion right?
<chillywilly> dunno
<Chipaca> 30 feet -> 10 meters is about right, yes
<Chipaca> it's not all that big...
<jcater> actually we use LanePOS for the actual cash register functions
<jcater> but I wrote GNUe screensa for the backend inventory stuff
<jcater> and reporting
<jcater> and wife is now begging me to write the cash register part in gnue forms
Action: jcater takes that as a compliment :)
<chillywilly> cool
<jcater> Chipaca: I was joking about the big size :)
<jcater> it's a tiny bookstore
<Chipaca> either that, or she'd rather you worked on forms for her than on gnue itself :-P
<Chipaca> ah
<Chipaca> my sarcasm sensor took a hit
<Chipaca> it must be on the outer parts of my brain that got scorched
Action: chillywilly notes he had a ';)' in there
<Chipaca> it's past 8 PM and the temperature is 33C
<chillywilly> nice
<chillywilly> it's faskin' cold here
<w4t4n> ... i'm almost convinced... ;)
<Chipaca> 33C at 2030 is *not* nice
<jcater> ooooo
<jcater> btw
<jcater> I think wife's bookstore will actually be able to pay it's on rent this month
<jcater> this is a GOOD thing for me :)
<jcater> on = own
<Chipaca> that's nice
<w4t4n> so, where must i begin?
<chillywilly> Chipaca: I am freezing my ass off so 33C would feel nice to me
<chillywilly> isn't room temp 25C?
<chillywilly> s o8 degrees hotter than room temp?
<jcater> w4t4n: are you planning to put this into use right away?
<chillywilly> that can't be to bad
<chillywilly> too
<jcater> or are you more trying to get a feel/experiment with it?
<jcater> if the latter, then I'd say check out a copy of CVS
<w4t4n> ...i would like to get a feel first...
<jcater> but it might be several weeks before CVS is stable enough to put in front of users
<jcater> there were some design changes in CVS (for the better), so it'd be easier on any newcomers to start there
<jcater> as if they start with our latest releases, they may have to relearn some stuff when we release the next version
<jcater> isn't that right, Chipaca :)
<Chipaca> jcater: does CVS fix the methods-of-one-block-do-the-same-thing-to-all-blocks-no-matter-what-block-you-call-them-from thing?
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<w4t4n> ok, i will start with the actual release....
<chillywilly> wb jamest
<chillywilly> jamest: you got broadband now?
<jcater> Chipaca: not sure
<Chipaca> jcater: don't know, we're trying to get things up to 0.5; is CVS very different?
<w4t4n> i'm good in relearning ;)
<jcater> 0.5 == CVS
<Chipaca> jcater: like initQuery
<Chipaca> ah
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<Chipaca> drat
<Chipaca> jcater: isn't that a bug?
<jcater> possibly
<Chipaca> also commit
<w4t4n> thanks again, i'll be back soon... 
<w4t4n> bye...
<Chipaca> w4t4n: later
<Chipaca> jcater: in fact we're having trouble due to block.commit doing a commit on all blocks because of ordering concerns
<Chipaca> plus it just doesn't *feel* right
<Chipaca> jcater: are you the one to bother about this issue?
<jcater> I'd prefer to not be bothered with this issue
<jcater> if that's the question
<jcater> :)
<chillywilly> Chipaca: are you serious?
<chillywilly> jcater is THE man
<chillywilly> ;P
<Chipaca> chillywilly: ACK, but I never seem to keep tags on who's doing what
<jamest> jamest: passes work to jcater
<jamest> jcater: passes work to jamest
<jamest> rinse, repeat
<Chipaca> heh
<chillywilly> so he lives
<Chipaca> well, if I can get you to agree it's a bug, I'll get aa to make a patch against CVS to fix that :)
<Chipaca> as he's currently working on getting papo on 0.5
<jamest> ah
<jamest> what are we talking about
Action: jamest has blown the dust off his gnue tree 
<Chipaca> methods of blocks (as available in triggers) that operate on all the blocks
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<Chipaca> the two we've found so far as initQuery and commit
<Chipaca> in fact initQuery used to work on the block, but now it just fors over all the blocks
<Chipaca> instead you could have an initQuery or somesuch on the _form_, and keep an initQuery on each block... or whatever
<Chipaca> some of the stuff we need to do (due to user's saying so) make us need to use per-block initQueries, and some of the commits we do are sufficiently involved that we need to be able to order them by hand
<Chipaca> ...
Action: Chipaca tries to wait patiently
Action: ra3vat is guessing who of the two j* will be first saying: "Go, fix it!"
<jamest> ok
<Chipaca> ra3vat: we've had to 'fix it' to get papo working against 0.5, but the fix was simply to remove the for because we don't use it for anything else; we are unable tu judge if it will break anything else
<Chipaca> that's wrt initQuery, at least
<jamest> so you need a block level initQuery at the trigger level
<Chipaca> i.e. we only know of the gnue stuff we use
<jamest> and the normal behaviour can stay the same right?
<Chipaca> what's the 'normal behaviour'? you mean the 'real' method?
<jamest> yeah
<Chipaca> AFAIK, yes
<Chipaca> let me check with aa
<Chipaca> yes
<Chipaca> that is a Yes, houston.
<Chipaca> *or*
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<Chipaca> access to the block list at trigger level
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<Chipaca> should I explain the second half of that *or*?
<jamest> please
Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by jcater!~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net: Welcome to #gnuenterprise: A new bug-fix release of GNUe Designer (0.4.3) is at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/downloads/current.php ... This fixes compatability with wxWindows 2.4
Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by jcater!~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net: Welcome to #gnuenterprise | A new bug-fix release of GNUe Designer (0.4.3) is at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/downloads/current.php ... This fixes compatability with wxWindows 2.4
<Chipaca> ok
<Chipaca> here comes aa
<jamest> one #1
<jamest> will this work
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<aa_> hi
<jamest> form.initQuery() in a trigger is old behaviour
<jamest> blockname.initQuery() in a trigger only inits that one block
<jamest> is that acceptable?
<Chipaca> that would be _great_
<aa_> yup
<jamest> ok, i'll squeez it onto tonights TODO
<Chipaca> jamest: same for commit?
<jamest> commit?
<jamest> first, what was #2 above?
<jamest> after the *or*
<Chipaca> aa_: your call
<aa_> yes
<aa_> it would be quite nice to have a trigger block.initquery() that put only the block into query mode.
<aa_> also, if you have a trigger-level method like form.blockList(),
<aa_> you could get current funcionallity of block.initQuery by doing
<aa_> for b in form.blockList(): b.initQuery()
<aa_> Which is, more or less, what initQuery does at the moment
<jamest> yeah
<aa_> Then, you have both features :)
<aa_> *and*
<aa_> you can do things like walking the list backwards, if you need to, or initQuery only some blocks.
<aa_> aprone mentioned that block.commit() had the same quirk...
<aa_> aprono, that is.
<jamest> yeah
<aa_> that the (trigger level) block.commit did a commit for all the form, not only that block.
<jamest> but i'm not sure I'd call that a quirk :)
<aa_> ok.  the not quirk
<Chipaca> jamest: on occasion it doesn't do what you want
<jcater> imho we need to remove the block-level commit
<jcater> as there's no such thing in our forms as a block-level commit
Action: jcater didn't even realize that was there
<Chipaca> jamest: he mentioned he had trouble with one form where the commit would try the commits in the wrong order and get the db into a weird state
<aa_> jcater:pass it over to form?
<jamest> Chipaca: who is "he"
<Chipaca> aprono
<aa_> aprono
<jamest> ah
<jamest> IIRC it's supposed to honor master blocks first then detail blocks 
<aa_> when some fields reference others, they have to be commited in a certain order to maintain consistency
<jamest> i think that change will require more thought
<Chipaca> jamest: sometimes it's not as simple as a master-slave
<Chipaca> aprono isn't here to explain further, unfortunately
Action: jamest is a little scared of this and needs to think it thru more
<jamest> and look at the code a bit more
<jamest> but I'm worried that data would somehow get lost
<Chipaca> ouch
<jamest> ouch?
<Chipaca> losing data == ouch
<aa_> the idea of data getting lost hurts :)
<Chipaca> as in 'drop table foo', "Oops, wasn't it bar" :)
<chillywilly> crap
Action: jcater grunts
Action: jamest pushes
<jamest> sorry chillywilly, no can do
<chillywilly> muwahaha, I can make youse guys crap on demand
Action: jcater runs to get a mop
<Chipaca> chillywilly: how much for the make-guys-crazy-on-demand button?
<chillywilly> what's it worth to ya? ;P)
<Chipaca> chillywilly: umm... what's the range?
<Chipaca> could I tune it onto say duhalde, or is it only over irc?
<chillywilly> what the heck is duhalde?
<Chipaca> current mafia boss I mean president
<chillywilly> sure it's highly configurable
<chillywilly> as you can asee it works on both jcater and jamest
<chillywilly> the crpa version does
<chillywilly> crap*
<Chipaca> gotta go
<jamest> Chipaca: 
<Chipaca> jamest: initQuery is on your TODO for tonight?
<Chipaca> jcater: 
<jamest> yes, i'll start in a few minutes
<Chipaca> jcater: ?
<Chipaca> jamest: great :)
<jcater> Chipaca: ?
Action: Chipaca looks at jcater
<aa_> 'night
<Chipaca> jcater: nothing
<Chipaca> sorry, it was jamest
<Chipaca> jamest: you were about to say something before I asked you
<jcater> Chipaca: I think he was still pushing
<Chipaca> jcater: ouch
Action: Chipaca thanks epic4 for it's crap filter
<jamest> :)
<jamest> i wanted to catch you before you left but typing long line takes too long
<jamest> so
<jamest> Chipaca: 
<jamest> to make you pause
<jamest> :)
<Chipaca> jamest: you have succeededede
<jamest> sorry
<Chipaca> jamest: was that it? or is there anything further?
<jamest> was just going to say I should have it done in the morning
<jamest> but then you asked if I was going to do it
<jamest> sorry I'm choppy, i'm wrapping up my last non-GNUe task for the night
<jamest> gnue in under 5 minutes
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Action: jamest does a happy dance
<chillywilly> what task is that?
<jcater> happy dance because you get to gnue?
<jcater> it has been a while :)
<jamest> migrate a devel database from a server that is offline back to the primary db server at a company i moonlight at
<jamest> seems that their primary coder think he needs to test on non production tables
<jamest> it's insane I tell you
<Chipaca> jamest: good luck
<jamest> by testing on production don't you find bugs quicker ? :)
<jamest> i'm done w/ it
Action: Chipaca is dead tired
Action: Chipaca waves
<jcater> Chipaca: better than just dead
<jamest> just sent the "I'm done" email :)
Action: Chipaca tries to leave
Action: Chipaca is leaving
<jamest> bye
Action: Chipaca is really going to be gone any moment now
<Chipaca> :D
<Chipaca> 'night
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<chillywilly> jamest: hehe
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<Chipaca> evening all
<Chipaca> ajmitch: you mind if I /msg you?
<ajmitch> no
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<frayed> hello?
<ajmitch> hi
<frayed> ajmitch: I'm glad you're here.  :)
<ajmitch> uh oh :)
<frayed> I thought you would be interested to know, since I've been evaluating GNUe, I've gotten my partner to give it a serioius look.
<ajmitch> ah excellent
<ajmitch> always a good start :)
<frayed> So, tomorrow he's gonna sit down with me and I'm going to show him how easy it is to build a couple of forms and stuff.
<ajmitch> cool!
<frayed> After I prove to him that GNUe rocks, he'll be willing to go with it rather than pump money into a hack proprietary solution.
<ajmitch> i certainly hope so
<ajmitch> that money could be used to improve GNUe, for example! ;)
Action: ajmitch imagines that time can be more critical than money at times
<frayed> Actually, we're still in "startup" status, and we need that money for more important things than pumping into proprietary software.
<ajmitch> yup
<ajmitch> i was just kidding :)
<frayed> But we have no problem sending our code back to GNUe, so if you guys find it useful, you'll have it.
<ajmitch> can be best to get yourself established 
<ajmitch> yeah, sounds good
<frayed> copyright assignment as well, more than likely.
<jcater> frayed: can I ask what you guys are using it for?
<ajmitch> like what the via libre people are doing
<ajmitch> ah, jcater is here!
<frayed> jcater: ok, first some words about our business.  :)
Action: jcater is just being nosey 
<frayed> we're in web marketing, and we're consultants.  The idea is to provide professional web marketing to small businesses that don't have much presence on the web already.
<frayed> our strategy works, and it's totally standards-based and so forth.
<frayed> We've already managed to triple the size of one of our clients, and we intend to do the same for others, just through successful web marketing.
<frayed> So, the problem this presents is simple.  How to keep track of our customers, invoice them, and keep our own accounting.
<frayed> Since we work on a subscription basis, we also need to be able to handle billing.
<jcater> ok, cool
<frayed> The problem with proprietary solutions is that even after you spend $1000s of dollars, you still don't have your accounting client talking to your CRM client.
<frayed> Our choice was: build our own, buy into someone else's.
<frayed> If we build our own, it'll do exactly what we want it to do, and no more.  The problem there is development time.
<frayed> So I set out to prove that GNUe would speed up development time dramatically enough that we can expect to have a working CRM/Accounting package within a matter of weeks.
<frayed> I proved it to myself and got my partner's attention with it.
<frayed> The domino effect is starting to set in with us, though, and we need something pretty quickly before we find ourselves buried in work.
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> well, cool
<jcater> I think GNUe will be perfect for you guys
<jcater> not sure if you are interested or not, but we have a side project
<frayed> of that I have no doubt.  :)
<jcater> GNUe-Small Business
<jcater> that is a set of apps using the GNUe tools
<jcater> that does contact management
<frayed> are they already developed?
<jcater> in progress
<jcater> the contact management is pretty far along
<frayed> usable?
<jcater> at this point, probably nothing outside of contact management
<jcater> but that might be a starting point
<frayed> if the database design is good enough, we always prefer to beg, borrow, and steal before we actually do any of our own work.
<dsmith> jcater: Are your contacts integrated with ldap at all?
<frayed> where can I find it?
<jcater> dsmith: not at the moment
<jcater> but I bet that wouldn't be hard to do
<chillywilly> http://savannah.gnu.org/projects/gnue-sb/
<jcater> thx chillywilly
<chillywilly> np
<jcater> was searching for that url but couldn't find it :)
<havoc> hola
Action: chillywilly pulled it frm memory ;)
<chillywilly> from*
<chillywilly> sup havoc
<havoc> not much
<dsmith> jcater: Lots of email progs are starting to use ldap.  Sylpheed, Evolution, m$ stuff.
<jcater> frayed: that may or may not be far enough along to be of any use to you
<havoc> Woman just got to Honolulu
<jcater> but is probably worth at least looking at
<jcater> dsmith: how would that work? would we feed stuff into an ldap server or start a server instance of our own?
<jcater> I would assume the former
<dsmith> jcater: Either could work.
--- Fri Jan 31 2003