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<dtm> hey guys
<dtm> i have a somewhat of a blue sky question 
<dtm> in terms of organizing SKUs
<dtm> across an enterprise
<dtm> is there a value and a possibility in unifying one's SKU format so that there's one algorithm for identifying everything
<dtm> everything has a serial number
<dtm> from internal inventory to product inventory across multiple clients across multiple stores per client and across multiple applications per client?
<dtm> for an enterprise that services many clients' inventories
<dtm> like this:  [seller][client][manager][category1][category2][category
<dtm> 3][category4][item]
<dtm> with a numerical value per column
<dtm> of like 2-6 digits each
<dtm> and it could be expanded from there too, to identify which of the client's stores this is in
<dtm> is there any purpose in doing that?  or should one have a point at which you exit the namespace
<dtm> the SKU namespace
<dtm> and say things like "Client XYZ's Interchange store for phones sold SKU #0101001 today."
<dtm> and then what happens if the SKU format changes later?  obviously you're always going to keep them numerically unique but how do you identify over time which SKU format you're referring to, so that you can look at the SKU number and know which category, client, item, etc it is?
<dtm> or am i thinking about this too newbishly?  maybe an SKU's only job is to be unique, not to structurally identify everything.  maybe that's just what database fields are for, and the SKU can be built from there, checked to see if it's unique, and then used?
<derek> um read past kernel cousins
<derek> gnue-sb will do this
<derek> you will have like set of categories that 'build' a sku
<derek> you could tailor this to whatever need you like
<dtm> ok well, i'm not yet using gnue-sb for some currently valid reasons, unfortunately
<dtm> although i'll look that up
<dtm> i'm tied to other environments fundamentally but we'll do everything we can to move toward gnue as we learn more about what's ready and/or short-term feasible
<dtm> derek: so i'm basically asking about just the generic format of an SKU
<dtm> derek: are you saying that it *is* worthwhile to think of SKUs in that totally universal of a namespace?
<derek> it can be
<dtm> derek: right now i'm just defining my SKU format, period.  so regardless of what generates it (human or any given app), i wanna know that i'm not overloading or underloading the concept of an SKU
Action: derek isnt a fan of smart numbers personally
<derek> but lots of people like them
<dtm> ok
<dtm> mmhm
<derek> i dont like them because like all things they degrade over time
<dtm> i'm doing ebay auction management, and Interchange store management
<dtm> yes that's what i was considering
<dtm> in the end, they're just a serial number, right?  not the *canonical* source of data.
<dtm> right?
<derek> the larger a sku is the harder it becomes to memorize, the less productive it becomes to enter it etc
<dtm> yes
<dtm> that's what is occuring to me offhand.
<derek> so when you make a smart number
<derek> you need the 'optimal' place holders per slot
<dtm> yep
<dtm> so it needs to be huge, at minimum
<dtm> so, how else do you keep em unique?
<dtm> at what point, and for what reason, do you break the namespace?
<derek> so say i wanted region, store, cat1, cat2
<derek> if i made them all 5 that would be 99,999 of each
<derek> but now i have a 20 digit sku
<derek> 8 digit sku is more optimal
<dtm> yes and then there's trouble if you realize later that there's another level of categorization
<dtm> of hierarchy
<derek> if i have under 10 regions and under 999 stores
<derek> i can do 4 numbers for region,store
<derek> but that only leaves me 2 for each category to stay in eight
<derek> etc etc etc
<derek> so what happens when the ceo wants to slice it into 10 regions
<derek> or we open store 1001
<derek> now my smart number has 'degraded'
<derek> and we stasrt to make 'exceptions'
<dtm> so should I just go with having an SKU that's somewhat legible, probably containing letters, and just keep em all unique as the format evolves, and then also divide the namespace between database tables or between entire apps?
Action: derek has lots of experience with this
<dtm> yes and that's why they call you da masta
<derek> dtm: i think its acceptable to do smart numbers if you dont fully rely on them
<derek> tha tis you dont write reports based on them
<dtm> derek: so where's the point of compromise?  how do i think about that
<derek> and such
<dtm> yeah so that they're not the canonical source of organization
<dtm> but rather, the db is
<derek> forexample its nice to select items and let it build you a SKU
<derek> so you dont have a totally random number
<dtm> i wonder where there might be a paper on this theory
<derek> persay
<dtm> yes
<derek> but once i sku is made if you change the elments i wouldnt have it auto change the sku
<dtm> [seller][client][manager][category1][category2][category
<dtm> 3[category4][item]
<dtm> how's that?
<derek> i.e. i would ahve have sku be a calculated number
<dtm> that'd be liek 16 digits.
<derek> er wouldnt
<dtm> and that's useful at a glance
<derek> i would drop seller/client/manager
<derek> as those are irrelevant to an item
<dtm> for someone who works frequently with SKUs, or at least memorizes their own seller/client/manager, so they know who gets paid
<derek> cat1,2,3,4 and item would be sufficient
<dtm> well see we've got one ebay ID, and many people using it.
<dtm> so that was my reason initially
<dtm> but then, you're prolly right 
<dtm> it's not relevant *in* ebay
<dtm> we should look in our local trading assistant database
<derek> seller/client/manager is more likely an 'account' as in chart of accounts
<derek> than a part number
<derek> well a crying kid woke me up and i sat down to read email
<derek> so i will answer dcl question then i need to go back to bed :)
<dtm> oh bummer sorry dewd
<dtm> hope your kid's ok
<derek> yeah just her sister wasnt in room with her so she was lonely after getting up to go potty
<dtm> oh heehhehe
Action: dtm lends derek some fairy dust
<dtm> hmmmm
Action: dtm thinks really hard to digest the results of this SKU conversation :)
<dtm> <--- not a database engineer or enterprise specialist
<dtm> ok we don't need to know the cashflow by looking at ebay auctions directly on ebay.com.  we have the local Trading Assistant software for that.
Action: dtm ponders using gnue as the canonical source for all data, pulling it from the Trading Assistant and from Interchange
<dtm> so i think all i need, like derek said, are four two-digit category numbers and one four-digit item number.
<dtm> <-- smot
<dtm> I CAN DO IT.
<dtm> ALL BY MSYELF.
<dtm> <-- big boy
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<Vee2d2> I always find intelligent SKU systems interesting.. 
<dtm> Vee2d2: hmmm
<dtm> i think that the resolution is that we'll use a leading identifier in the SKU which isn't able to be set by our proprietary database app, followed by just an item serial number
<dtm> and that'll be good enough for now
<dtm> i.e. lame
<dtm> and in the future i'm guessing we'll change it when the organization becomes more complex, including some way to tell which version of the SKU scheme we're using
<dtm> like either a date range built into the new upcoming database apps which know the cutoff date ranges for each SKU versioning
<dtm> and/or an SKU version number digit built into the SKU :)
<Vee2d2> just keep it as small as you can.. particularly if you're working with these numbers in the real world, eg: Joe Hourly needs to pull sku# to ship or something.. 
<dtm> ehhehe  yeah we're catering to Joe Hourly
<Vee2d2> I used several systems with my former employer, they had a simple 3 category canonical system which worked very well.. through a merger, I learned another canonical system which was very similar to the first, so it was easy to integrate.. then through another merger, everything was converted to an 8 digit (semi)serialized number.. 
<dtm> hehehe
<dtm> so how did they deal with transactions with past revisions
<dtm> ?
<Vee2d2> I saw (semi) because as they created new products, etc.. they tried to maintain some order so that you could say products in the range of xxxxxxxx-xxxxxxxx were 'this kind' and .. etc.. 
<dtm> did that work ok?
<Vee2d2> well.. the conversions happened along side the mergers.. 
<Vee2d2> where, when we converted from the canonical system to the serialized.. it was because we were moving everything into one computer system, and the system we were moving to was already using the serialized SKU's.. 
<Vee2d2> so the old transactions were simply frozen on the old systems for archival purposes...
<dtm> yeah but what about referencing them later?
<Vee2d2> we had some cross reference tables we used for a short time.. 
<Vee2d2> what sort of transactions are you do you mean?
<dtm> i'm wondering how your new system referred to items from the old system
<dtm> did this system store SKUs on transactions or on items?
<Vee2d2> it didnt.. 
<dtm> why not?
<dtm> was there absolutely no reason to ever reference the past?
<Vee2d2> I wouldnt say that, but that's what archives were for..
<dtm> well yeah.  so how did it reference the old SKU :)
<dtm> i mean, was the SKU just a totally benign serial numbeR?
<dtm> or was it canonical data?
<Vee2d2> yes
<dtm> i mean it's no big deal as long as the SKU is merely a serial number
<Vee2d2> benign
<dtm> but you were talking like it had to be descriptive for smoething... jsut for human cosmetics?
<dtm> ok
<dtm> well cool.
<dtm> i just learned the term 'sku' a few months ago.
<Vee2d2> I've had an intimate relationship with SKU for 15+years.. 
<Vee2d2> as my professional experience is all in logistics/warehouse mgmt.. 
<Vee2d2> the company that last bought us out had a crazy 15 digit system.. 
<Vee2d2> the distribution center where most of the material I was responsible for, created a 5 digit system of their own to manage materials, and a cross reference to the 15 digit system.. 
<Vee2d2> they had all sorts of numbers.. =/
<dtm> whoa.
Action: dtm boggles at cross referencing SKUs
<dtm> why did they do that?
<dtm> is there any simple explanation?  :)
<dtm> Vee2d2: what's your advice for starting out?
<dtm> Vee2d2: did you catch the conversation betweeen derek and I earlier?
<dtm> Vee2d2: that's got my whole situation outlined in it
<Vee2d2> 15 digits is too large a number to work with.. "Joe Hourly, go cycle count #123456845445578 and #931484453612354" 
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<dtm> Vee2d2: oic
<Vee2d2> or.. "BigCo, Inc. can I take your order?".. "Yes, I need to order 5000 #456512313843134's" etc.. 
<dtm> Vee2d2: so it's very much a human interface thing
<Vee2d2> yes
<dtm> :/
<dtm> yeah i had to order from Ingram Micro that way
<dtm> had to give them the manufacturer's SKU and translate it to their reseller SKU
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<derek> thats why i said skus should really be smaller than 8
<derek> er 8 or smaller
<jbailey> I think it fascniating who you guys will pick up mid conversation.
<jbailey> Sometimes hours after the last thing was said.
<Vee2d2> derek: yea, I agree 110%. 
<Vee2d2> actualy
<Vee2d2> actually
<Vee2d2> jbailey/derek: I agree 110%.. =)
<Vee2d2> I also agree they should be benign identifiers, but think there's no reason they cant be logically organized. 
<Vee2d2> heh.. isnt this sweet.. 
<Vee2d2> About: The Linux Virus Writing HOWTO describes how to write parasitic file viruses which infect ELF executables on Linux/i386. Though it contains a lot of source code, no actual virus is included. Every mentioned infection method is accompanied with a practical guide to detection.
<Vee2d2> on freshmeat
<jbailey> Linux is not fundamentally immune to viruses.
<Vee2d2> nope
<jbailey> Only stupid people claimed it was. =)
<jbailey> The thing that surprises me most is that emacs wasn't infected with a macro virus first.
<Vee2d2> do you think there are many emacs users that blindly use foreign macros?
<jbailey> Dunno.  It doesn't really take 'many'. =)
<Vee2d2> I dont use emacs myself, so I'm not familiar with it's cult.. ure..
<jbailey> You can embed macros in a document, and I'm sure some people would say 'y' to running them.
<Vee2d2> yea I would imagine so.. =)
<derek> i would 
<derek> any macro made in emacs is worthy of being run ;)
<derek> <jbailey> I think it fascniating who you guys will pick up mid conversation.
<derek> <jbailey> Sometimes hours after the last thing was said.
<derek> this is long be told why i think irc is one of the best forms of distributed communication
<derek> its very much like a 'meeting room'
<derek> only one that is recorded and its relatively easy to replay old tapes
<derek> if you were not available for a meeting
<derek> i think its cool that hours can pass and one can comment
<derek> and one or more people will answer like the conversation never stopped
<Vee2d2> I recall an occasion where someone set a channel topic akin to, "Run this! exec `decrypt 23498324057842098734109237839074829537`" or some such, which when decrypted revealed rm -rf something.. and quite a few people did it without question.. 
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<jbailey> Vee2d2: IRC users don't tend to all be in the highest class of intellegence.
<Vee2d2> no argument there.. =)
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<chillywilly> sup dudes
<jbailey> Anyone know if I can send multiple mysql requests in a single mysql_query command in PHP?
<jbailey> I'm trying to do the equivalent of:
<chillywilly> why would anyone want to use mysql ;)
Action: chillywilly runs off
<jbailey> mysql -uuser -ppassword mydb <myschema.sql
<chillywilly> one more file and I'll have the latest farscape ep avi
<chillywilly> woohoo
<chillywilly> silly valentines day
<jbailey> chillywilly: Y'know.  So far I have yet to find a good reason not to use mysql.  All of the arguments generally presented seem to be incorrect.
<chillywilly> don't these women know we have to watch scifi every friday
<jbailey> All the dataloss and threading problems and stuff haven't existed in a few years.
<chillywilly> features, featurs, features
<chillywilly> that's the main reason
<chillywilly> it doesn't even support transactions
<chillywilly> nor does it do proper locking, IIRC
<jbailey> The locking issues were fixed like 2 years ago.
<chillywilly> some ppl like those thing others, like havoc, don't give a crap
<jbailey> And for web stuff there's no good reason to use transactions.
<chillywilly> GNUe is not about web apps though is it?
<jbailey> Nope.  But almost everything I write is.
<chillywilly> we're talking hardcore mission critical stuff
<chillywilly> I dunn
<chillywilly> ajmitch uses it and he complains about it all the time
<chillywilly> ;)
<jbailey> But it's just funny how people immediately jump to "mysql sucks", without specifying an app that it sucks for.  For most people mysql will more than do the job.
<chillywilly> another big reason is in the mysql driver we have to hack transaction support in
<chillywilly> so maybe this si why everyone bicthes about it
<chillywilly> master-detail doesn't work either for some reason or another having to do with a mysqlism, IIRC
<jbailey> *lol*  I could see that.
<jbailey> I use postgres for my gnue stuff.
<jbailey> Largely to avoid beatings.
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> oooh, 3MB left
<chillywilly> go go go!
<chillywilly> I want to watch farscape!
<chillywilly> anyway, I only know postgres VERY well and mysql somewhat...anywho mysql is not really an enterprise level db server imho, but it works for lots of web app and such
<chillywilly> and maybe if you write yourself a nice layer on top of it like havoc has
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> anyway, I like teasing you jbailey 
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<chillywilly> besides I know ppl use for whatever reason or another and I was just messing with you, it's the gnue rule to make fun of mysql ;)
<chillywilly> I cannot help that
<chillywilly> I want to take some of the attention off myself when ppl start picking at things so mysql seems like an appropriate scape goat (pun intended ;) )
<chillywilly> weeee, farscapes away!
<jcater> lack of sequence support really screws it up for most of my apps
<jcater> but to each his own
<chillywilly> ah
<chillywilly> yea that's one thing
<chillywilly> btw, .rar files are lame and make you install non-free software, stupid bootleggers
<chillywilly> I need some lunch
Action: chillywilly almost has a complete winblows setup
<jcater> lucky you
<chillywilly> I have python 2.2 installed and was in the process of trying to cvs winblows python script
<chillywilly> er, use
<chillywilly> stupid winzip did like my tarball so I mad a zip file
<chillywilly> made*
<chillywilly> jcater: you ever use fish:// in kde?
<chillywilly> ;)
<jcater> I discovered it about 2 weeks ago
<jcater> it's really neat
<chillywilly> (that's not a joke either
<chillywilly> yea
<jcater> I'm not in the habit of using it though
<jcater> but it's really cool
<chillywilly> they need trout://
<jcater> lol
<chillywilly> well I typed my passphrase wrong for my normal user account and told it to save it on gandalf and now I cannot get my homedir anymore tells me permission denied...I can't get it to reprompt for it again either
<chillywilly> I can only do fish://root@gandalf/
<chillywilly> but I suppose that's all I really need anyway
<chillywilly> what's really annoying is how this vnc client misses my double clicks
<chillywilly> and/or doesn't get my key presses either
<chillywilly> kjhaskldh akjdhaskjdh
<chillywilly> maybe I should try a different one
<jbailey> Bah, I've managed to convince mysql to let me have a user that can create databases, but it doesn't automatically give me rights to the database I created!
<chillywilly> doh I am missing one more file
<chillywilly> for my farscape episode
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<derek> jbailey: so mis informed :(
<derek> generally i have two items to fight mysql folks with
<derek> 1. no view support (any enterprise that doesnt use views has issues imho)
<derek> 2. all these problems have been fixed 'in the past year or two'.. scuse me but my data is important, i dont want to run the latest 'stable' version of a database
<derek> most enterprises stay at least one rev back to maintain sanity
<derek> imho
<derek> anyhow i digress
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<derek> hmm if anyone sees jbailey let him know i tested the dcl deb package and it appears to be real nice :)
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<reinhard> night all
<jcater> night
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<siesel> hi all
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--- Mon Feb 17 2003