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<srbaker> hey
<srbaker> anyone around?
<ra3vat> hello srbaker
<srbaker> hello
<deprogram> greetings
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<btami> hi all
<deprogram> btami: hi
<btami> man, i'm just installed uhulinux on my win32 box (next to xp) and all progs talks hu !
<btami> it's a debian based hungarion distro
<deprogram> :> 
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<deprogram> nice for you, of course...
Action: deprogram is lucky enough to speak the dominant language in computing natively
<deprogram> dominant verbal language, that is
<btami> i like when programs talk my native lang, coz i want to turn my programs/users to linux
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<deprogram> btami: that's a great advantage
<btami> we now have localised OOo, mozilla, galeon, spell-checker and finally www.uhulinux.hu
<srbaker> oksay
<ra3vat> btami: is not plain debian localised badly?
<deprogram> that's almost all you need
<btami> ra3vat: debian hu loalisation isn't perfect, and needs hours of finetuning after installing 
<btami> in uhulinux the system and all programs is preconfigured for hu_hu
<btami> and it has additions like suse/mandrake/redhat
<deprogram> phear the mighty power of open source :P
Action: ra3vat has liked altlinux.com for the same
<btami> and it has some exclusive progs, lika a database of all hungarian law, whitch is an exclusive for uhulinux
<ra3vat> btami: is it under free licence?
<btami> yes
<btami> i mean uhulinux, yes
<ra3vat> i meant law database
<btami> no :(
<btami> you can use it only with uhulinux
<ra3vat> the same thing here, altlinux released on 9 CD's with few prop applications on the 9th disk including law database
<btami> it's a prop software/database, used by justice and gow etc.
<deprogram> so the data is free, but the sw isn't?
<btami> sw and data all prop
<ra3vat> i did not look closely, think it is allowed to use on one machine but database also may be outdated for few month and you need subscription contract for updates
<btami> exactly :)
<ra3vat> :)
<ra3vat> does form.setFocus(object) working for anyone?
<jamest> dunno
<jamest> i didn't test that one prior to release :(
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<ra3vat> jamest: it is looked like setFocus was left from 0.4.3 version
<jamest> sigh
<deprogram> http://geekcruises.com/home/ll3_home.html <- anyone going?
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<jamest> jeffb?
<jamest> nick change?
<jeffb> Nope - New client.  About to fix.
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<jbailey> Much better. =)
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Action: deprogram upgrades yet another box to unstable
<deprogram> there is no way to populate a DB backend directly from class definitions, right?
<reinhard> not yet
<deprogram> [using geas - or anything else]
<reinhard> we certainly want to have such a possibility
<deprogram> assuming that the class definitions are 'definitive'
<deprogram> which it seems like they should be
<deprogram> i am faced with the task of implementing my data structures - and i really do wish to use geas
<reinhard> geas?
<deprogram> the appserver
<reinhard> what geas are you talking about?
<reinhard> there was a piece of code named geas
<deprogram> hah! the new one.
<reinhard> which is obsolete
<reinhard> ok
<deprogram> i understand - the official designation is 'appserver'?
<reinhard> the new appserver stores its definitions in the database
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> at some point we agreed to use the term "appserver" for the new and "geas" for the old one
<reinhard> to avoid confusion
<reinhard> however
<reinhard> the new appserver stores its definitions in the database
<reinhard> and we want a way to create the db schema out of the definition
Action: deprogram thinks he understands... almost
<deprogram> there has to be some database agnostic way to create the definitions?
<deprogram> that get stored in the database?
<reinhard> sorry i don't understand "agnostic"
<dsmith> reinhard: Try "neutral" insteead
<reinhard> ah ok
<reinhard> thanks
<deprogram> dsmith: beat me to it :>
<reinhard> there has been much talk about how to "author" the definitions
<reinhard> one way is to have a form that accesses the tables of the database that contains the definitions
<reinhard> like a form for item management you have a form for class management
<deprogram> sure
<dsmith> That's always a problem with dbs.  How do you bootstrap them.  The best place to store stuff is in the db, but how to you get to the db to find out "how do you get to the db" ?
<deprogram> exactly
<reinhard> this is the way that appserver will support first
<reinhard> appserver will have a way of "bootstrapping"
<reinhard> the very basic table definitions for the tables
<reinhard> that hold the classes and properties and so on
<deprogram> ah!
<reinhard> those basic definitions will be written in a .ini file
<reinhard> that .ini file will be read by appserver and appserver will "bootstrap" the database
<reinhard> and when we have these tables then we can fill them with "user" tables
<reinhard> like item, vendor, customer...
<deprogram> where do the .gcd files fit in?
<deprogram> or don't they?
<reinhard> they were the way of defining classes for (the old) geas
<reinhard> there has been talk about a lot of formats that appserver could import
<deprogram> aha. so, an idea that lost favor somewhere along the way
<reinhard> you write your class definitions in xyz and appserver imports those definitions into the system tables in the database
<reinhard> where xyz could be
<reinhard> .gcd
<reinhard> XML
<reinhard> ODL (Object Definition Language)
<reinhard> whatever
<deprogram> i see
<reinhard> we started to dislike .gcd as we learned that most businessmen won't be able to understand that syntax
<reinhard> the syntax of .gcd is quite understandable if you have some years of experience in C or a comparable language
<reinhard> but not for a businessman
<reinhard> however adding a new property to a class with a visual form
<reinhard> will be easy even for Joe Accountant :)
<deprogram> right - this is true
<reinhard> especially if the prpoerty maintenance form looks similar to the customer maintenance
<deprogram> certainly...
<deprogram> however - user friendliness has its drawbacks
<deprogram> my current project involves replacing a system that was TOO friendly
<deprogram> any user could make arbitrary changes to database schema
<reinhard> well
<deprogram> the result was a terrific mess :>
<reinhard> that's a matter of access control then
<deprogram> agreed. however, a minimum level of DB design understanding would have been a good barrier to avoid design mistakes
<reinhard> hmmm
<reinhard> i'm not quite a friend of programs that include an IQ test before letting you do something ;-)
<deprogram> COBOL was designed to be used and understood by managers
<deprogram> but they can't figure it out... any more than any other programming language
<deprogram> no - i agree with your design goals
<deprogram> i'm very impressed with the level of thought that has gone into gnue in general
<deprogram> so - primary focus is now a class builder?
<reinhard> primary focus is getting appserver to a useful state
<reinhard> creating a few forms for class and property management is a piece of cake with designer i guess
<deprogram> that would be logical, indeed
<reinhard> and then we would have to make this app that creates the db tables from the class definitions
<deprogram> ok! what project does this app live under?
<reinhard> basically appserver
<reinhard> but most of it will be in common probably
<deprogram> hmmm
<deprogram> the assumption is that gnue must be functional without appserver
<deprogram> so something as fundamental as base table building would have to live in common?
<reinhard> yes but then we don't have class definitions
<deprogram> i suppose not
<reinhard> no
<reinhard> what i meant is
<reinhard> that things like the abstraction of db schema maintenance for different dbs
<reinhard> must be in common
<reinhard> like
<reinhard> common has functions to create and update db schema
<reinhard> and appserver tells common what to create/update
<deprogram> ah...
<deprogram> reinhard: thanks!
<reinhard> you're welcome
<deprogram> jbailey: get lots of errors installing debian packages. may i email you error messages?
<jbailey> Sure - Just in case they're different than the ones I have now.
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<deprogram> jbailey: hmason@dbsinet.com = deprogram
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<jbailey> deprogram: tx.
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<StyXman> hi guys
<StyXman> remember me?
<StyXman> kind of back
<StyXman> from hell
<StyXman> we hit a problem here
<jamest> hi
<StyXman> when adding data to (var)char fields
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<jbailey> hell?
<jbailey> Y'mean they let you out after a while?
<StyXman> (hi jamest.)
<StyXman> they sent me back
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<StyXman> gotta pay some debts
<jbailey> Oy
Action: jbailey hides.
<StyXman> specially to devil's henchmen
<StyXman> anyways
<StyXman> we try to put some data in a varchar of certain size
<StyXman> the prob arises when the data is bigger than the field
<StyXman> mysql just truncs it and goes on
<StyXman> but postgres chokes and fails
<StyXman> do the entries/fields have any semantics about it?
<StyXman> do you think of any?
<jamest> um
<jamest> pushing too much data into postgres choaks it?
<StyXman> (hi jbailey)
<StyXman> yeap. try it.
<jamest> can you just set the maxLength on the <field>
<jamest> to prevent that from happening
Action: jamest can't try it at the moment
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<jamest> StyXman?
<StyXman> jamest: yeap?
<jamest> was that what you were after?
Action: jamest really didn't understand what you were after
<StyXman> uh, didn't know of the existence of maxLenght
<StyXman> so we wanted to know your opinion on what would be right.
<jamest> will maxLength work for you?
<StyXman> jamest: does, yes. zanx
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<lupo> hi there
<StyXman> hit here
<lupo> hey steveb_
<lupo> sorry
<lupo> damn tabs :)
<lupo> hey StyXman
<lupo> you haven't been around here for quite some time
<jamest> StyXman: did you guys see 0.5.0 is out
<jamest> it hopefully addressed issues you guys were having
<lupo> hem
<StyXman> jamest: we're still stuck in 0.3.x :(
<StyXman> but works fine so far.
<lupo> 0.3???
<lupo> wtf
<StyXman> to much work to switch
<StyXman> maybe in a couple o' years or so...
<jbailey> A couple of years?
<jbailey> Waiting for 1.0? =)
<StyXman> kind of...
<StyXman> waitin' for our code stab
<jamest> :(
<StyXman> which seems to never come
<StyXman> (our code stab, I mean)
<jamest> lol
<jamest> i was about to say
<jamest> GNUe? unstable?
<jbailey> Never.
<jamest> never!
<jamest> *cough*
<jbailey> =)
<jbailey> cough!
<jbailey> SARS!  Run away!!!!
Action: chillywilly thinks this rsync is taking FOREVER
<lupo> never
<lupo> except for a hundred of DB000s, everything's fine
<jamest> um
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<jamest> that's a featre
Action: revDeke is hear to warn jamest
<revDeke> dont use your campus money card anymore at vending machine
<revDeke> http://features.slashdot.org/features/03/04/14/1846250.shtml?tid=153&tid=172
<revDeke> appears some folks have found them incredibly easy to hack
<revDeke> and the vendor has 'silenced' them with cease and desist orders
Action: revDeke isnt sure if jamest's silence means he is cutting that card up or seeing if he can mirror packets to get free soda
<jamest> FREE MT. DEW!!!!!!!!!!!
Action: jamest truely is in nirvana
<jbailey> Oh yeah.  Mt. Dew is caffeinated in your country, isn't it...
<jamest> It damn well be caffeinated in every country
<jbailey> No, sorry.
<jamest> or else it isn't mt dew
<jbailey> It's not permitted to be caffeinated in Canada.
<jbailey> (for the same reason we don't have caffeinated water)
<jamest> You guys can't handle real beverages?
<jamest> or some other reason? :)
<jbailey> Naw, just if it's not dark in colour, you can't add caffeine to it.
<jbailey> (something about consumer expectations)
<jamest> that's odd
<jamest> i expect anything i drink to be caddeinated
<jbailey> What I find funny is that the US is so anti-drug most of the time unless it's tabacco or caffeine.
<jamest> don't forget cigarettes and alcohol
<jamest> er
<jamest> scratch that first one
Action: jamest had a SMP failure of the brain
<jbailey> *lol*
<jbailey> I didn't include alcohol, because the gov't did try to outlaw it once, didn't it?
Action: lupo fetches his cigarettes from his car
<lupo> brb
<deprogram> jbailey: yes - with a corresponding statistical spike in violent crime
<jbailey> deprogram: But they ignored the spike in violent crime when mirijuana was made illegal in the early 1980's...
<StyXman> there's no drugs.
<StyXman> just abuse of consumible goods
<StyXman> I don't know why noone learnt anything from the dry law.
<deprogram> jbailey: of course! the WOD is in all contradiction to facts of any kind
<StyXman> wod?
<deprogram> war on dr_gs
Action: deprogram looks over his shoulder
<lupo> the US seems to be leading a war against nearly everything ...
<StyXman> yo, man, don't be so paranoic.
<StyXman> hu, let's just not start on that.
<lupo> hehe
<deprogram> StyXman: there is no paranoia. only real fear
<lupo> just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they don't observe you :)
<StyXman> fear is when your hairs at the back of your neck raises in warning
<deprogram> now. i need to convince my boss that gnue is better than an in-house .net application >:(
<lupo> sick .net stuff
<lupo> does .net have data aware widgets?
<deprogram> erm. the widget set is actually excellent. it's the platform that sux
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Action: jamest fears the non-caffienated neighbors to the north
<jbailey> Oh, there's no shortage of caffeine.  But it's lots of people drinking Coke and Pepsi.
Action: StyXman fears not reach age 40
<jamest> ah, well then, i'll sleep better
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<lupo> 40?
<jbailey> Of course.  I don't consume caffeine at all.
Action: chillywilly sips his coke
<lupo> man, is that old. i can't even imagine being 30 :)
<chillywilly> course not 
<chillywilly> you're a freak
<jbailey> chillywilly: Et tu brutes?
Action: deprogram shakes his head, smiling
<deprogram> night all...
<StyXman> yeah, man. 14 years to go and is not clear to me there would be somewhere to live then.
<StyXman> bye dep
<lupo> deprogram: bye then
<lupo> damn, i run out of table water
<lupo> whatever
<lupo> i go to bed now
<lupo> bye ppl
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<jamest> hi
<neilt> hello jamest
<jamest> hows it going
<neilt> what month is it?
<neilt> ;)
<jamest> tuesday I think
<jbailey> jamest: Your gfd file has an error.
<jamest> impossible
<jamest> must be a bug in forms
<jamest> :)
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<jamest> ****this is not a comment on my views of the war*****
<jamest> but I find this funny
<jamest> http://www.math.ksu.edu/~jamest/Protesters.jpg
<jamest> I bet they don't engage in any idle chat while standing out there
<chillywilly> lol
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<chillywilly> hi neilt 
<chillywilly> long time no see\
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<chillywilly> bah
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<chillywilly> muwaahahahaha'
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--- Tue Apr 15 2003