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<Arturas> Hello
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<Vee> vrooom
<chillywilly> uh, yea
<chillywilly> it's too frickin' early to be awake
<chillywilly> what the hell
<chillywilly> ajmitch is back but he's too good to hang out in this channel...
<chillywilly> everyone harass him ;)
<lupo_> hm?
<chillywilly> nm
<lupo_> away
Action: lupo_ is away: +49 171 700 31 48
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<chillywilly> hey dudes
<jamest__> yo
<chillywilly> what's with the tail?
<chillywilly> you see jcater
<chillywilly> er, jcater's comments from yersterday regarding tails
<chillywilly> yesterday
<jamest__> i have no idea 
<jamest__> i must have a system logged in somewhere
<jamest__> ah, my home account
<chillywilly> how is the dsl connection?
<chillywilly> pretty fast?
<Vee> <jcater> chicks dig tails
<Vee> ?
<chillywilly> hehe, yup ;)
Action: Vee is being paged, bbiab
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<jbailey> How much sump could a sump pump pump if a sump pump could pump sump?
<Vee> how much money have ya got?
<jbailey> A pile of pennies within arms reach.
Action: Vee claps his hands and says, "today is going to be a great day!"
Action: jamest__ takes the crack pipe away from Vee
<jamest__> any day that involves going to work can't be a great day
<Vee> would for me
Action: Vee notes he's at home
<jbailey> I like work.  They pay me for it.
<Vee> I need muohuhohuhouhhhhny, that's what I want.
<dsmith> jamest__: Just you wait until you don't have work to go to!
<Vee> the number of places I've seen shutting down is pretty scary
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<chillywilly> Vee: you evil bastid
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> whoever wrote this code was on crack
<chillywilly> IMHO
<Vee> you still working with havoc?
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> but he didn't write this
<chillywilly> someone else magled it into this state
<chillywilly> mangled
<chillywilly> ;)
<chillywilly> just teasing it's not that bad, but it has to be changed
<chillywilly> I am so frelling tired
<chillywilly> you know playing guitar helps my typing
<chillywilly> guess it gives the forarma a good work out
<chillywilly> heh, I take it back ;)
<chillywilly> nothing can help my typing
<chillywilly> fagit abot it
<Vee> heh
<Vee> I was just curious, btw.. not implying that havoc writes bad code.. =)
<chillywilly> he has other minion^H^H^H working for him
<chillywilly> ppl
<chillywilly> blah
<chillywilly> maybe I need some caffiene
Action: chillywilly feels like slug man
<Vee> I'm addicted to coffee, there's no doubt about it
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<chillywilly> ello fixe
<fixe> hey chillywilly!
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<jhihn1> good day 
<Vee> let's hope so
<jhihn1> hehe... James clued me into GNUe...
<jhihn1> I have several questions:
<jbailey> I'm not sure we allow questions.
<jbailey> Aren't those being added in a future release?
<jhihn1> you're saying any questions are unsupported?
<jhihn1> is there a patch?
<jhihn1> He mentioned that HTML UIs are in the works... 
<jhihn1> Can I get a more complete status?
<jbailey> Lots of patches. =)
<jbailey> There's a buch of stuff on the website for roadmaps and what features are being added when.
<jbailey> The HTML UI is in the works, but no code has been committed
<jbailey> jamest: I sent off for my assignment papers finally, BTW.
<jhihn1> well, like a typical user, I'd like to have it sooner than later ;-)
<jbailey> ah, excellent!  Are you unlike a typical user?  Can you write python? =)
<jbailey> Most of GNUe at this point is based on what the people who are coding need.
<jbailey> So the best way to get the features you want, is to want what the developpers want.
<jhihn1> I'm learning it - outside of gnu for my own benefit
<jbailey> =)
<jhihn1> I've been playing with wxPython....
<jhihn1> But I'm also well versed in perl and php, c and c++
<jbailey> Python wil come to you very easy then.
<jhihn1> well it's a lot like vb, but soooo much better
<jbailey> The whitespace is a bit weird to get used to - That can be worked around if you've got a good IDE.
<chillywilly> python smython
<jbailey> It's like vb, but not. =)
<jhihn1> I've been following basic since the 80s, though when I got into college, i put my childish things away
<jhihn1> Actually I was looking at doing my current project in python anyway because there will be several coders and python stays striaght forward
<jhihn1> the other thing that I'm looking forward to is the somewhat obscure curses support
<jbailey> Curses support appears to be unfinished, but in CVS.
<jhihn1> I saw the screenshot on the web page.. I guess colors and such can be changed by at worst, modding the python classes
<jhihn1> Like the menu...http://www.gnu.org/software/gnue/gallery/forms10.png
<jhihn1> I could change that to be more spiffy?
<jbailey> I'm off for lunch...
<jhihn1> k
<chillywilly> ask jcater
<chillywilly> he wrote the curses front end
<jhihn1> oh jcater... you around?
Action: jhihn1 pokes jcater
<jcater> occasionally
<jhihn1> hehe
<jhihn1> hello. What could you tell me about curses support?
<jcater> shakey, at best
<jhihn1> oh really? y?
<jcater> I had to put on hold for a little while
<jcater> to revamp the underlying curses library
<jhihn1> oh
<jhihn1> well, how complete would you say it is?
<jhihn1> to put it another way what is not implemented?
<jhihn1> This gnue thing looks cool, but I get the feeling that it is not ready yer
<jhihn1> er, yet
<jcater> well
<jcater> it's hard to say "not ready"
<jcater> we are using the wx client in production
<jcater> the curses is mostly implemented
<jcater> it's mainly odd things that have to be tracked down
<jcater> but the whole project is a work in progress
<jhihn1> of course, that's OSS
<chillywilly> or FS depending on who you talk to ;)
<jcater> but I wouldn't put curses in production use, definitely :)
<jhihn1> that's not what I want to hear :-(
<jhihn1> i don't mind fixing little gotchas, but I'm not in a position to write whole sections
<chillywilly> use the source luke
<chillywilly> ;P
<jhihn1> hehe
<jhihn1> Ok, I know you're looking for .5 to come out, any idea how long that will be?
Action: chillywilly thought it was already released...
<chillywilly> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/downloads/current.php
<chillywilly>  /topic is your friend :)
<jhihn1> whoops. well some pages still say that.4.99 is it
<chillywilly> what pages?
<chillywilly> s/what/which/
<jhihn1> http://www.gnu.org/software/gnue/news/old.html
<jhihn1> http://www.gnu.org/software/gnue/news/news133.html
<jhihn1> the combination of the two (without a newer entry) mak me thing .5 hasnt happened yet
<jhihn1> and at the top f each page "0.5.0 pre-releases  available for testing"
<chillywilly> someone should update the news
<jcater> chillywilly: I choose you :)
<chillywilly> HEH
<jcater> we need to get psu to teach us how to update the stuff
<chillywilly> I don't even have a shell account anymore
<chillywilly> or I don't remember my password
<jhihn1> ok, jcater, could curses be used for development?
<jhihn1> is it that complete?
<chillywilly> just use LTSP like jcater does ;)
<chillywilly> and the wxwindows ui
Action: chillywilly runs
<jhihn1> LTSP?
<chillywilly> linus terminal server project
<jhihn1> I know wxWindows though :-
<jhihn1> :-)
<chillywilly> linux even
<jhihn1> ooh, I fully intend to
<jhihn1> but how does that go with what you're saying?
<jcater> curses is not that far from completion
<jhihn1> I was planning on LTSP'g the ncurses app
<jhihn1> cause some people still like text - it's faster data entry and graphical
<jhihn1> Ok, so dropdowns, check boxes and stuff are implemented?
<jhihn1> s/and graphical/than graphical/
<jamest__> i think the biggest issue w/ curses is the lack of window support
<jamest__> which the new dialogs/message stuff in 0.5.0 needs
<jamest__> really it just needs some tcl
<jamest__> as the core of forms works
<jcater> tcl?
<jamest__> tlc
Action: jcater thwaps jamest__
<jcater> no tcl in gnue!
<jamest__> how about JAVA!!!!!
Action: jcater thwaps jamest__
Action: jamest__ is a java fool now
<jcater> NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!1
<jamest__> jhihn1: the nice thing is that you can develop and test w/ wx now
<jamest__> and curses will just work when it's complete
<chillywilly> jamest__: who are you and what have you done with the real jamest
<jcater> would the real jamest please stand up
<jcater> please stand up
<chillywilly> man I'm hungry
<jamest__> since designer is written in wx you'll need that anyway
Action: jcater hopes to add a curses preview mode into designer soon
<jcater> but not this release
<jamest__> sigh, i need to get back into gnue code again soon
<jcater> I agree
<jamest__> i don't think I've broken anything in months
<jamest__> though designer is still hurting from my last efforts
<jcater> yeah
<jamest__> bwahahahahaha
<jcater> I need to do a 0.5.1 designer release soon
<jamest__> er, i mean, that's unfortunate
<jcater> I have a list of 5-6 big gotchas
<jcater> in the 0.5.0 release
<jamest__> i've got 1 in forms that makes it suck when used with navigator
<jamest__> fixed in head
Action: jbailey thwaps jamest__
<jbailey> You said Java.  ewww..
<jamest__> sigh, i know
<jamest__> i can't get the stains off my fingers
<jamest__> so I may as well keep coding w/ it right?
<jbailey> I could chop your fingers off.
<jbailey> Chillywilly eats meat, he might be interested in them.
<jbailey> They've got to be better than those chicken fingers he was talking about.  Chickens are scrawny.
<jamest__> i thought he ate trout
<chillywilly> I am not a cannibal
<jbailey> chillywilly: Are you an jamest the same species?
<jamest__> w00t!  See!  I'm human!
<jamest__> oh wait, he's a penguin
Action: chillywilly is a pengnuin
<chillywilly> no, pen-gnu-in
<chillywilly> big difference ;)
<jamest__> jhihn1: what's your timeline?
<jbailey> It means he can eat penguins too.
<jhihn1> i sec.. phone
<chillywilly> he's witht he SEC?
<chillywilly> :-o
<jbailey> Did GNUe go public?  Where are my shares!
<jbailey> I want options!  I've been abusing you long enough...
<chillywilly> me too
<jamest__> you turn in the html driver you get options
<chillywilly> HEH
<chillywilly> lol
<jamest__> options like
<jamest__> 1) you can now work on the menu system
<jamest__> 2) you can now work on the gtk2 driver
<jamest__> 3) all of the above
<chillywilly> ;P
<jamest__> we're happy to provide options
<chillywilly> hehe
Action: jcater needs to get rid of his options
<chillywilly> give them to ajmitch
<chillywilly> he's too cowardly to show his face here cause he was trying to ditch his options
<chillywilly> [13:15] --- [ajmitch] (~ajmitch@wlg1-port13.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) : ajmitch
<chillywilly> [13:15] --- [ajmitch] #metawrap #dunlug #dotgnu 
<chillywilly> [13:15] --- [ajmitch] irc.freenode.net :http://freenode.net/
<chillywilly> [13:15] --- [ajmitch] idle 03:55:29, signon: Mon Apr 21 02:13:39
<chillywilly> [13:15] --- [ajmitch] End of WHOIS list.
<chillywilly> I see him
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<chillywilly> blah
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<chillywilly> damn freenode
<chillywilly> wb net splitters
<jhihn1> ok, back
<jhihn1> stupid work
<jbailey> Hmm, now that we've started to think like a dot com company and takling about stock before a product release, we're doomed, aren't we?
<jhihn1> anyway, my timeline is sort-of up in the air. 
<jhihn1> I need HTML first, 
Action: chillywilly listens to slayer
<jbailey> chillywilly: When did you start listening to slayer?
<jhihn1> then curses, then GUI
<chillywilly> I was thinking that a cgi rpc driver would be best to accomodate a web client
<chillywilly> jbailey: I have some erm "worldly" music in my play list
<jbailey> Concur.  Should be easy to do the wrapper also in a way that it will like mod_python.
<jhihn1> RPC?
<chillywilly> yea for the appserver
<chillywilly> we have an abstraction
<jhihn1> I was just thinking:
<jamest__> what happened to jan's javascript setup
<chillywilly> of rpc in gnue common
<jbailey> chillywilly: Initially it's easier to wrap on forms until appserver is up to the challenge.
<jamest__> wasn't that a forms ui driver
<jcater> we don't allow thinking in these parts
<chillywilly> jamest__: afaik, he hacking on it
<jhihn1> <TD><?php pleace_control('control_id'); ?>
<chillywilly> jamest__: I played with it the other day
<jamest__> i saw a working demo a few weeks ago
<jhihn1> </td>
<jamest__> using appserver
<jbailey> jamest__: Have they reimplemented the forms logic in appserver now?
<chillywilly> I saw one the other day
<jhihn1> I wouldn't care if I had to hand-write html because there is no kind of absolute positioning
<chillywilly> no
<chillywilly> the jsforms is a separate client
<jamest__> no, appserver has a gnue-forms datasource driver
<jhihn1> so it's a ehole different cat to skin
<chillywilly> and it was using the appserver driver
<jbailey> The final logic can't be in the client, it's insecure.
<jbailey> *especially* something like Javascripts that's way too easy to edit.
<jbailey> hack, etc..
<jhihn1> agreed
<chillywilly> anyway
<jhihn1> lemme paste into here
<jbailey> How would you enforce jcater's input validation stuff?
<jhihn1> table | element | abs_position | control| ctrl_attrib | validate_func
<jhihn1> --------------------------------------------------
<jhihn1> address | address1 | (45,34) | NULL | NULL | val_addr_address()
<jhihn1> address | state    | (34,65) | NULL | NULL | val_addr_state_()
<jhihn1> address | ex_bool  | (34,32) | CHECKBOX | NULL | NULL
<chillywilly> ummm, thanks
<jhihn1> do it in triggers
<chillywilly> triggers are evil
<jhihn1> they are good stuff
<chillywilly> we have triggers in forms
<jamest__> they're not evil...just misunderstood
<jhihn1> so..I don't see how ou can get full forms in html
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<chillywilly> write a ui plugin
<jhihn1> html won;t ever be as rich as GUI
<jamest__> you can't get the real time validation
<chillywilly> html forms will be crippled
<jhihn1> javascript does pre-validation
<jbailey> jhihn1: It theoretically could be.
<jamest__> but all validation happens in the backend "virtual form"
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<chillywilly> cause it doesn't work like a gui
<jbailey> But you must *never* trust a browser.
<jhihn1> then the sever does final
<chillywilly> web apps have no state
<chillywilly> dna this aplitting is driving out of my frellin' mind
<jamest__> so data can still be validated
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<jhihn1> jbaily: hence he trigger validation
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<jhihn1> Well, I was going to write my own system, then james told me about GNUe
<jamest__> if I should suffer why shouldn't he right?
<jhihn1> I was going to rely on a database table and triggers, and for html throw n javascrpt for RT validation
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<jbailey> jhihn1: Putting the triggers in at the database level means that you lose the abstraction.
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<jhihn1> no, it means you gain a final check
<jbailey> I think that logic is best suited to go in at the appserver so that sane results can be handed back to the clients.
<chillywilly> triggers aren't portable
<jhihn1> fuck MySQL
<jamest__> forms doesn't care, it can work either way
<chillywilly> db triggers
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<chillywilly> mysql is excellent for web apps
<jcater> geeze
<jhihn1> Postgres is the shizznit :-)
<jamest__> validate with triggers
<jamest__> or in the form, or appserver, or all three
<jhihn1> yeah, it can;t hurt to do it everywhere
<jamest__> as for storing the form in the db i've debated doing that
<jamest__> not as a table but as a text field
<jhihn1> I can tell you it's the wayt o go
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<jcater> I have mixed feelings about it
<chillywilly> I think I am going to kick lilo in the nuts
<chillywilly> j/k lilo!!!
<jhihn1> because having it in files completely defeats the database aspect
<chillywilly> dude like watches the logs and shit
<jhihn1> you have forms definitions int he clients all that have to be updated seperately
Action: chillywilly thought a db was for data
<jbailey> chillywilly: It's like apparently they have a wall of monitors at google showing all the in progress queries.
<jhihn1> in a database, update a row and everyone has the new stuff
<jhihn1> screen layout is data
<jamest__> our forms client can pull a form from http:
<jbailey> chillywilly: I keep wondering about directors meetings.  When "goat sex" goes flying across all the monitors...
<jhihn1> oh, that's cool
<chillywilly> heh
<jamest__> and adding support for putting them in the db shouldn't be too hideous
<jamest__> it was a SQL*Forms feature I never used 
<jhihn1> it;s just a blob
<jbailey> jamest__: I think it would be nice if eventually the /etc/gnue files could also be refered to off of the web server somehow, and just cache the passwords or something.
<chillywilly> big fat blobby bitches
<jamest__> you mean set at runtime?
<jamest__> er
<jamest__> install time
<jhihn1> ok, well I have to run out for a second, but I'll be back
<jbailey> Or just as part of the gfd.
<chillywilly> silly lilo
<jbailey> Define the data source there.  So if you've got a trusted connection to a web server (say, an intranet or an entrust encrypted connection)
<jbailey> you can push an apt-get install gnue-forms, and then push out a menu entry that says gnue-forms http://foo/my.gfd and have it Just Work.
<jamest__> interesting
<jamest__> IIRC there is almost nothing stopping this from working now
<jamest__> as we use our openResource() to open config files IIRC
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> we've already hacked openResource() to look in gear files
<jbailey> Nice. =)
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<reinhard> l8rall
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<jhihn1> you said you needed window support in curses, but it looks like you have it in the screenshot...?
<jamest__> ah, i mean overlapping windows
<jamest__> 0.5.x eats it's own dogfood wrt to dialogs
<jamest__> so forms can call up other forms as dialogs
<jamest__> curses can't do this cleanly yet
<jamest__> however UI drivers and docs are what are left in the 0.5.x series
<jamest__> if we can keep focused then things should start coming together a little faster than 0.5.0 took
<jhihn1> there's no call to save_background(top,left,w,h)?
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<jhihn1> OnClose(): restore_background()?
<jhihn1> brb
<jamest__> that's my understanding but jcater is the man that knows the exact details
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<jamest__> psu: how do we add news?
<jamest__> we releases 0.5.0 like 2 weeks ago
<jamest__> but I don't think anyone knows how to release the news on the site
<psu> um, it's all documented somewhere
<psu> let me look
<dyfet> And there is a new bayonne release too :)
<psu> basically we do everything on website via CVS now
<psu> with some very low-grade python I wrote to do the templating & news
<psu> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/admin/readme.txt
<psu> is your friend ;-)
<psu> As python scripts to update our website are technically FSF software 
<psu> I've included the standard "Front Cover Text" ;-)
<psu> The quickstart guide is 
<psu> a) Check site out in CVS
<psu> b) Write news article with XML tage
<psu> tags
<psu> c) run postnews.py
<psu> d) recommit to CVS
<psu> "Whatever the source of the news item, prepare it as an XML file using your favourite text editor (emacs, vi, kate, cat<con: ...) 
<psu> "
Action: psu doesn't like to be too prescriptive in the matter of text editors.
<psu> Oh, and the code to also post web site news to gnue-announce I never got working
<psu> but the stub is there
<jbailey> dyfet: Is bayonne assigned to the FSF?
<jbailey> dyfet: It's April, so theoretically I'm supposed to start hacking on that stuff to configure a PBX.
<dyfet> its assigned to ost for the most part
<jbailey> What will you want for the copyright on pieces that I write?
<dyfet> your first born? :)
<jbailey> Done!
<jbailey> Well, wait.
<jbailey> I should check with Angie first.  
<jbailey> But I think it would be sweet to deliver you a child in 5 or 6 years with a tag that reads:
<dyfet> Actually all you need to do is use one of the fsf copyright assignments, you can assign it fsf or ost, whichever makes you happier
<jbailey> "Do you remember on #gnuenterprise at 15:10 Eastern time, you said..."
<jbailey> I don't know if the FSF will take the copyright assignment if they don't have all the rest of the program assigned to them.
<dyfet> fsf europe is also a valid option for bayonne developers to use in europe
<dyfet> They have done it in the past
<dyfet> (partial)
<dyfet> it also serves everyones goals better to have joint custody among a few parties, rather than a single entity
<dyfet> a single (commercial) entity can change license on whim (look at mono)...
<jbailey> Yeah.
<dyfet> spread too far and its not possible to change the license when its actually needed (look at mozilla)
<dyfet> Hence, I think two-three entities with similar philisophical viewpoints is probably most ideal
<jbailey> Hey - maybe if I write good enough code, I'll convince OST to take me on as a coop student when I start school. =)
<dyfet> maybe :)
<dyfet> i have to go...
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<jcater> psu: I don't like how you have kate as the third option in your text editor list
<jcater> and emacs as the first!
<jcater> what favoritism!
Action: jcater runs to sulk in the corner
Action: psu notes that most lists of text editors usually start & end "emacs, vi"
Action: psu is being quite catholic including kate too ;-)
<jcater> lol
<psu> as well as that ol' faviourite, cat < con:
<jcater> how's the new job?
<psu> pretty good so far
<jhihn1> oh, so ncurses can't save the background?
<jamest__> i think that's the issue
<jamest__> we adopted a package called nstti and jcater had his way with it, er, i mean worked on it a lot
<jamest__> i haven't touched that code since I first split it apart and added distutils
Action: jbailey melts in pain at the site of the word 'disutils'
<jamest__> at least I think that's what I did, jcater probably changed all that too
Action: jamest__ thwaps jbailey
<jhihn1> that sucks. At least in DOS you could memcopy the video segment you were going to overwrite
<jamest__> learn something new ya gezzer
<jbailey> You're telling me that, while jhihn1 is talking about how thigns are done in *DOS*? =)
<jamest__> er, i mean, sorry to cause you pain Mr Bailey
<jamest__>  /msg jbailey he's too new a abuse...wait till tomorrow
<jamest__> s/a/to
<jhihn1> to get a save_background to work, you have to track waht each cell was rendered as
<jbailey>  /msg jamest__ Yeah.  Just remind Derek to wait that long.
<jamest__> it's not really a matter of not knowing what to fix, it's a matter of taking the time to fix things
<jbailey>  /msg jamest__ Although..  How long had psu been around before we put him on the rack?
<jamest__>  /msg jbailey too long.  We're getting better though
<jamest__> jcater seems to think he has a life or something
Action: jamest__ thwaps jcater
<jbailey> As long as he doesn't get a wife.
<jbailey> Those take too much time.
<jhihn1> so what's the likelyhood of curses getting a save_background?
<jcater> curses has been stable for, oh, over a decade or so
<jcater> so if it isn't there, we probably won't see it
<jcater> we are using ncurses though, which has several enhancements
<jhihn1> so how do they save_backgrounds()?
<jcater> it may ahve something like that we don't know about
<jcater> I know you can grab a character cell at a time
<jcater> so you coujld do your own save_background
<jhihn1> char and attrib?
<jcater> I think so
<jhihn1> so overload the window driver to call a save_background(), then restore_background() on close
<jhihn1> or am I over simplifying
<jhihn1> ?
<jcater> well
<jcater> the issue was not entirely just figuring out how to save the background
<jcater> it was more time than anything
<jcater> we have to do an interface that actually keeps track of windows
<jhihn1> make time; make install
<jcater> lol
<jcater> I wish :)
<jcater> $ make time
<jcater> make: *** No rule to make target `time'.  Stop.
<jamest__> ooooo
<jamest__> if you implement make time
<jbailey> You don't make time, you do time.
Action: jbailey pulls out the handcuffs.
<jamest__> could you also implement make cash
<jcater> I can do "make cash"
<jcater> I have the printers
<jbailey> make cash, also results in 'do time'.
<jcater> just don't turn me in :p
<jcater> I have the equipment
<jcater> just not the balls
<jcater> :)
<jhihn1> make love can result in time too, if you get creative
<jhihn1> making time is no harder than inserting moments between now and then
<jhihn1> Of which, there are infanantly many
<jhihn1> :-)
<jhihn1> jacter why track windows?
<jhihn1> if you think about it, if you save and restore a background, then all you need is done
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<jcater> but something has to keep track of what windows have focus
<jcater> and what is overlapping what
<jhihn1> the stack dos that
<jcater> right
<jhihn1> no, the restore_background does that
<jcater> but something still has to track all that
<jhihn1> no, they dont
<jhihn1> lemme explain
<jhihn1> everything is a 2d projection of 2d plaines arranged on top of each other (Z order) the stack tracks the Z order. Because windows are popped off the stack, if each one restores his background then everythign will be resotreed correctly
<jcater> assuming all windows are modal
<jcater> which might be an ok initial assumption, I suppose
<jhihn1> more or less, they are
<jamest__> that's an OK assumption for the moment as far as forms in concerned
<jhihn1> if they are not, then they have to implement a redraw function
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<jhihn1> and when the stack comes back to them they redraw
Nick change: psu__ -> psu
<jamest__> forms itself doesn't expect modal forms but all the dialogs implemented so far are modal
<jhihn1> that should take care of 99% of windows
<jhihn1> but I see now, that indeed non-modal dialogs are a problem
<jhihn1> the solution to them is to implement a redraw
<jamest__> jhihn1: carefull, you're starting to sound like someone that wants to code
<jamest__> and I can assure you we are always looking for victims
<jhihn1> If I knew python better I would
<jhihn1> and knew the toolkit better I would
<psu> jhihn1: if i can hack python, anyone can
<jhihn1> today is my first day here... :-)
<jhihn1> be easy on the newbie
<jhihn1> :-)
<psu> my last "serious" programming was early 1980s Basic
<jhihn1> i did that too
<jhihn1> my past fun project was this:
<jhihn1> http://www.openchallenge.org/winners.php
<jhihn1> #2
<jhihn1> so i gots max skillz when i wants to use them
<jhihn1> I have to decide though, and soon too, to go with this or go my own route
<psu> it depends exactly what you're doing 
<psu> but if your goals are at all aligned with GNUe's 
<jhihn1> everything.. html, GUI and curses
<psu> it's probably worth working with GNUe
<jcater> jhihn1: cool on that openchallenge thing
<jhihn1> thanks
Action: jhihn1 blushes
<psu> as a) why reinvent the wheel
<psu> b) you get to hang out with the K()()L D()()DZ here
<jhihn1> awesome!!! :P
<psu> c) Synergy and all that
<jhihn1> I'd like to help out on something as awesome as this
<chillywilly> jhihn1: neat
Action: psu remembers dneighbo_ doing a much more lucid explanation of this
<jhihn1> but I had been planning on light JS validation, for the web
<jhihn1> and UIs using 100% stored proceedures for business logic and final validation
<jhihn1> I asked a Q on postgres-general about something that would allow me to build forms from the database structure
<jhihn1> on the fly, more or less
<jhihn1> then frontends are a task, but relatively trivial
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<jhihn1> the problem with GNUe is it is a project with it's own momentum (and inertia)
<jhihn1> but DAMN if Forms,Reports and Designer don't look good!
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<jamest__> having (according to sloccount) 
<jamest__> Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC)                = 51,599
<jamest__> tends to make one set in their ways :)
<chillywilly> is that for all of gnue?
<jamest__> yes
<chillywilly> wooo
<jamest__> common's the big boy at almost 18000 lines of code
<jhihn1> when forms to refers to triggers, those are done in python or on the database?
<jamest__> a little more info
<jamest__> Development Effort Estimate, Person-Years (Person-Months) = 12.57 (150.83)
<jamest__>  (Basic COCOMO model, Person-Months = 2.4 * (KSLOC**1.05))
<jamest__> Schedule Estimate, Years (Months)                         = 1.40 (16.82)
<jamest__>  (Basic COCOMO model, Months = 2.5 * (person-months**0.38))
<jamest__> Estimated Average Number of Developers (Effort/Schedule)  = 8.97
<jamest__> Total Estimated Cost to Develop                           = $ 1,697,911
<jamest__>  (average salary = $56,286/year, overhead = 2.40).
<jamest__> Please credit this data as "generated using 'SLOCCount' by David A. Wheeler."
<jamest__> triggers can be done anywhere you like
<jamest__> in forms or appserver (i believe that's working) they are in python
<jamest__> but nothing stops you from doing db triggers
<jhihn1> right...
<jamest__> jhihn1: do you have any of our code yet?
<jamest__> cvs?
<jhihn1> i'm going to download it soon
<jamest__> we have lots of samples
<jhihn1> ah
<jamest__> and we have a forms developers guide started
<jhihn1> i'm reading it
<jamest__> and a common developers guide started (for using outside of gnue)
<jhihn1> lots of TODO though
<jcater> sure
<jcater> but 70 or so pages too :)
<jcater> be positive
<jcater> we need the encouragement :)
<jhihn1> so where is the business logic suggested to reside?
<jamest__> depends on your target
<jamest__> if you're N-tier then appserver
<jamest__> you can put in in the form (or in forms libraries) if you're old school like me
<jamest__> or it sounds like you want it in the db as triggers
<jhihn1> i read somewhere about interconnections between service providers and two ways to do it - to the DB or throught he API
<jhihn1> I'd prefer triggers
<jhihn1> (in db) because that's your lowest level
<jhihn1> you can't violate them
<chillywilly> what if you want to move to the GPL'd sapdb?
<jhihn1> i don't know anythign about sap
<jhihn1> :-(
<jcater> but that's a design decision
<jcater> there's a lot to be said to db-level triggers
<jhihn1> all i know is that people get paid big bucks for it
<jcater> though it does tie you to a database
<jcater> I use them
<jcater> though somewhat regret it
<jcater> but could not have done the stuff I do now
<jcater> without them
<jhihn1> who needs anyhting other than postgres? ;-)
<jhihn1> i've done my share of triggerless MySQL and it sucks
<jbailey> jhihn1: You shouldn't be able to violate triggers in appserver either.
<jhihn1> really? why not?
<jcater> as long as you always use the appserver api
<jcater> you wouldn't be able to
<jcater> and if appserver was where it needed to be :)
<jcater> but it's getting there
Action: havoc notes that the *API*, and not the db, should handle all enforcement of data structure and consistency anyway
<havoc> triggers and stored procs are for babies who don't really know anything about engineering
<havoc> ;)
<jcater> dbs frequently outlive their APIs 
<jcater> sometimes for decades
<jcater> s/APIs/interfaces
<jbailey> jcater: appserver should overcome that.
<havoc> jcater: which is exactly why they should have app loginc in the db
<havoc> should not have
<havoc> oops
<jbailey> Or, at least, appserver will be the stick in the mud that you can't get rid of. =)
<jbailey> (unlike, say, being stuck with clipper)
<jcater> application logic, sure
<jcater> but integrity logic is a little blurier
<jcater> I would never use db-level triggers
<jcater> except that I'm working w/legacy systems
<jcater> and it makes all the difference in the world
<jcater> in a fresh from-scratch system
<jcater> I would avoid them
<jbailey> jcater: Legacy is anything older than gnue-forms 1.0? =)
<jcater> lol
<jbailey> Anyone know if anything (browser or server) supports HTTP over TLS yet?
<jamest__> dunno
<jamest__> speaking of the evils of db level triggers and lock in :)
<jamest__> i need to have a postgresql trigger that runs an external app when things chage in a table
<jamest__> anyone know how to make that happen
<jcater> there's this guy in kansas
<jamest__> this is for my extra spiffy postgresql->word perfect 5.1 mail merge format 
<jamest__> syncronizer
<jcater> that I usually ask postgres questions to
<jcater> he's quirky
<jhihn1> with 7 trigger languages.. there are at least 7 ways
<jcater> but seems knowledgable
<jamest__> yeah, well he hasn't looked into this before 
<jhihn1> i'd select a language that allows system() calls
<jamest__> like python
<jamest__> yum!
<jhihn1> here's my justification: importing data
<jhihn1> i write a scrupt to process an ascii file to go into the database... I need trigger validation AND business logic integrity
<jhihn1> otherwise I'd have to write a whole new gnu app
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<jhihn1> also update this page http://www.gnu.org/software/gnue/project/what.html
<chillywilly> jhihn1: there's no reason to need triggers for canned data
<chillywilly> you're creating that format
<chillywilly> what the hell do you need to make sure it is validated?
<chillywilly> s/what/why/
<jhihn1> because what if it is to update a record who uses a compund key and one or more parts don't exist?
<jhihn1> or when you import sucha  record then another record is to be created, stuff like that
<jhihn1> for instance, invoicing.. you have an invoice and a line item. each time you add/del/mod a line item the invoice amount needs to be recalc'd
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<jhihn1> even though you shoudl recalc through the records, you have to stote the invoice amt seperately so you can see what was billed even if after they are billed someone goes i and mods it
<chillywilly> I write a perl script to import data
<chillywilly> :P
<jbailey> jamest__: We've had goat sex, canabalism, and a discussion about appserver, and jhihn1 hasn't been scared off yet.
<chillywilly> the gnue way would be to use gnue integrator
<jbailey> jamest__: Now all he needs to pass is the Derek test, and use should put him to work. ;)
<chillywilly> but it's not done
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<yodermk> anyone seen Derek?
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<jamest__> nope
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<torenvliet> has there been any advances on that problem I was having yesterday?
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<derek> anyone else subscribed to gnucash list and ready to vomit over the budget proposal being spewed about?
<derek> being a budget stud in 'real life'
<derek> their proposal sounds about as brillant as putting square wheels on a bicycle
<chillywilly> nope
<chillywilly> hi derek
<derek> ok maybe not that bad
<derek> but non sensical (at least to me)
<jcater> I subscribe
<jcater> but these days
<jcater> it's click on folder, Ctrl+A, Delete
<derek> jcater: me too
<derek> BUT
<derek> i had to read BUDGETING PROPOSAL
<derek> i mean thats like reading
<derek> MAGAZINE SUBSCRIPTION ACCOUNTING MODULE PROPOSAL
<derek> in the subject line
<derek> makes you 'have' to look
<Vee> heya derek
Action: Vee is wooped
<Vee> maybe back later.. 
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--- Wed Apr 23 2003