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Hello L:) hi btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) left irc: Remote closed the connection bbl reinhard (~reinhard@M1249P001.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "For each complex problem, there is a simple, understandable, obvious, and wrong solution" ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise. arturaz (arturaz@adsl-81-7-117-149.takas.lt) left #gnuenterprise ("Oh, you really got me this time."). Arturas (~arturas@gsk.vtu.lt) left irc: "Bye :)" jamest_ (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. mornin mornin damn.. I had another question for y'all that I came up with last night, but I forgot it :-< Happens all the time with me.. but usually it happens in the course of seconds rather than a half day. Action: jhihn1 is considering finally getting a pda I've come to the point where going to the store without a list only guarantees I will not come back with everything I need, even if we're only talking about 1 or 2 things. =/ Action: jhihn1 can relate I get my pda from the drugstore.. usually about $.99, one of those pocket memo pads =) yeah...sometimes I wonder if 'modern' tech is better than ols school stuff johannes_ (~johannes@M1249P002.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) it's a whole lot less to write on a post-it johannes_ (~johannes@M1249P002.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. so how complete is the HTML (php) client? well, at least with the digital postit, you pretty well know where you can find it. =) if it has bateries, and hasn;t been sat on it's also a $100+ thing for me to lose yip btw, I'm clueless with regard to the html/php client oh k I know people that have lost PDAs (stolen too) and their whole life was in there i'd rather not be so dependant on something sure I bought my pop one last year, think he's using it to track his cattle and auction prices hehe I want a shopping module to track the lowest prices for things i also need a bar code reader because I'm lazy that'd be nifty I was thinging of making a website where people culd share the pices too reinhard (~reinhard@M1249P001.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. so you can enter a shoppinglist and it will make a shopping list and GROUP BY store wb reinhard and It'll put the stores on it with the lowest prices if it ended up saving me money, that'd be cool Vee: thanks So Vee waht do you so with GNUe ? I think that's well and good for things like computer peripherals and what not, but would be difficult to do with like groceries y? where you must break down the actual cost to a unit of measure they already do that on the labels not everywhere, I find. =( scan the bar code, enter the description, and enter a size and price then I (should be) work on the gnue-sb project it's only a lot of work for the first few people then you'll have barcode->(desc, size) in the database, and only prices only need updating and you only have to update if they change so it's a lot of work initailly right, but I guess I'm saying groceries get skewed somewhat by the volume thing.. I could save a lot if I go to the warehouse store (sam's, costco, etc).. but I dont really need 100# of sugar or a 5gal jar of mayonaise. =) the php html client never got into cvs. seisel (jan) was working on it but switched to a javascript based one jbailey was building a html driver that worked w/ forms current model but then one person can save lots of people $ becaue it's one price update no clue where he is on that aah ok thanks james the html driver has always been a slippery thing Vee, that is true, but the site should allow you to select your size james: i really want to make it work.. I;ve got soo much to learn though. this isonlt day 1.5 for me :-) Vee, if you make a shopping list by scanning the things youbuy, then it already knows what size you want to buy again but the palm scanners are expensive.. more than the PDA in most cases... we need cuecats! have you played with those? cue cats that is nah, heard lists about them though... free barcode reader some 64 bit xor or something yea, I have one.. It didnt seem very accurate when I played with it, but I didnt play with it for very long as I already had a real pen scanner and a gun scanner anyway, something like this could be built into the ecommerce GNUe module jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. I remember having to hold the cuecat 'just right' for it to be able to read anything how do, jcater Action: Vee tips his hat word so what do all of you do with gnue? hmm.. I need to call the cpa and see what's up with taxes.. developemt/actual use? Action: Vee raises his hand can you be more specific? I have a small embroidery business and plan on using gnue-sb to help manage it see I'm in this situation. 10:00am est yesterday I got this idea to make dialogs straight from DB schema then james told me about GNUe i'm about to start development of a system that will utilize all three conceptual clients of GNUe, html, native, and curses but in html, curses, native order (chronoloically) I'd hate to develop my own... but I'm hearing that everythign buy native is not yet ready s/buy/but EWOK (Enterprise Wide Office Kommunication lame! ising a K.. that's a KDE trenf and it doesn't start with GNU... it shoul dbe GEWOC i use gnue here in math and at a local biz http://www.gnu.org/software/gnue/project/docs/DevelopersIntroduction/x280.html oh, and no closing paren :-) in math it's all custom systems, in local biz it's custom systems and interfacing w/ the table structures of a seperate java based custom system i use the forms/reports quite a bit well the thing is... I can recommend we use it to by results-oriented boss? would you? The forms/reports look awesome and I use gnue common as the framework for all my in home scripts s/home/house so all my apps are becomming gnue dependent I was working on those issues in my head can the reports be printed? the reports can be damn near anything you want cool... how are they spec'd out? the output is a multi step process I was thinking about making a form to send faxes, similar to what jamest did with his scanner form, or.. is there already a way to do that/should I be thinking about...reports? it pumps out xml that is transformed so my reports today are emailed as text and printed as text yeah, I saw that.. pretty cool I've also done mass faxing via reports where it merged db data w/ a postscript letter generated on win32 w/ word perfect I've also setup a pdf converter that built copies of invoices from an rtf template and displayed on the web (not in production) awesome! so where is the url on how to get this installed so I can check it out? once you get up to speed on the tools i think your output will be high i've been wading trough docs and the lke but getting there takes time and designer is still rough Action: jhihn1 sighs rough? how? so plan to spend part of your time in designer and part in (emacs) (or editor of your choice) rough as in still needs more work to make it VB programmer friendly you'll find some things work great what about VC++? some things don't work at all I never did VC++ as to how to learn it it sucks. i hate it pull a copy of cvs and ask lots of questions in here reports especially Steve Ballmer: Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! if your boss demands HTML client up front but no one can be OSS when it comes to serving developers s/be/beat yeah, HTML is priority 1 then I don't know what to tell you as the html ui driver is always a slippery thing ncurses is 2, and ironically the most complete part is #3 however I imagine that by the time you rolled your own system from scratch Maybe I can get around #2... but it'll take convincing you'd have invested more time that just learning gnue and maybe writing your own html ui driver I could prolly roll my own in a week Action: Vee imagines designer with an interactive context sensitive help system lol, i've heard that before :) though not nearly as thourough, it'd be 100% of what we need now we lost a company to that once 'lost'? i think they're still working on their solution a few years later we were not moving fast enough so the owner rolled his own only to find more gotchas/needs than he expected projects tend to grow but I will say you won't have gnue up in a week Action: jhihn1 know it at least not w/ html sigh, i'm between gnue projects (read: burnt out) maybe I can look at html driver see... hrm... grr.... my recent gutting of the ui driver system will make html driver "fun" I could hack somethign up quickly, and I don't doubt that we'll end up paying later, but if it pleases the boss, it pleases the boss Vee: gnue-reports -Dfax -d800-225-0000 where the definition of fun involves mad goats, a tube of lipstick and high heels Vee: will send the report as a fax to 800-225-0000 jcater: cool awesome I guess you specify a modem somewhere? it uses std sendfax oh or underlaying fax system.. hylafax vs mgetty+sendfax, etc.. ? the fax command is defined in the gnue.conf file cool so you can customize w/o touching the code I use it with hylafax as do i good but mgetty would be just as easy, I imagine <-hylafax internally, reports just creates a temporary file then runs the sendfax command with that file as an argument jhihn1: one nice thing about gnue is we don't require you to use our stuff exclusively, all our tools stand alone so any fax package that has a command-line client could be used (that's for the benefit of anyone reading the logs... but I recommend hylafax =) hehe so if you found you had to hack out a quick html ui I don't see what the 'big deal' is... could someone share with me the issues? nothing would stop you from doing a hacked2gfd that created a basic gfd file (for html) absolute layout of widgets state tracking w/ multiple users My hacked approach took a different approach. I don't know if it could be used real-time triggers so, you can't do abs posin html you can, but it's a hack several people have produced working code instead it must be called only none of it's made it into cvs as they hit a point and say "man, i'd rather be watching porn" or somthing heheehe then they stop working on it real-time is canned javascript fucntions that get include()ed as needed and podified as needed s/pod/mod that's the direction people have been going but our trigger system wouldn't work exactly right wrt how it deals with navigation events please elabotate Action: jhihn1 easts this tech stuff up! you mean onfocus? we define triggers like 'post-focusin','post-focusout', s/post/pre too forms using these triggers might have issues of course I'm perfectly willing to say that html forms initially must accept certain limitations as would I what's sad is i think a ton of the work on this is already done it's just not in cvs doh mabye we can slap a few of them around to get access to the code which code? jcater: got your thwapstick? i'm getting the cvs now... jan had the php driver laying out gfd files properly his javascript driver IIRC even handled pages/tabs jbailey had some type of layout thing working Action: jhihn1 goes to find jan, carryng a newbie sized thwap-stick ah, the php thing may be in the obsolete/ directory at least that's what jcater informed me if he's wrong please don't thwap him wht about the phpforms dir? that's my job phpforms may be it I'll bring him back for thwacking that code base would only be good for the layout logic I think it's phpforms common.php CVS gcomm.php print-gfd.inc connection.php database.inc gnue-forms.php settings.php So if I may back up.... how des this compare to .Net and J2EE? seems like an apples-to-oranges comparison Action: jcater isn't sure how to respond but they are both fruit :-) well by the same token we use python and it's std library so I guess all 3 projects use languages :) well let me put it this way you'll find a whole lot less buzzwords in GNUe and with appserver not being production ready you'll find N-Tier sorely lacking in GNUe disclaimer: I have a rabid dislike for java. And only recently have been drug back in JavaLand. my personal opinion is that the jdk 1.4.1 is an improvement on what I remember java being but it'll take years before I consider it in the same class as python wrt to productivity as far as .Net does MS even know what .Net is yet? on the html driver side of things I see a few options 1) rewrite a native html client 2) implement a client via zope 3) use webware to make the driver 1 would be pure hell as common simply does too much 2 &3 I toss out as ideas only I've done no research into them to my newbie self it looks like they all have a simular infratructure am I wrong? I still don't liek java it doesn't make enough sense... or maybe it makes to much sense .net js java without being tied to a language that's all s/js/is .Net is code (any lang) compiled to a virual machine if you could compile C to java VM, you have .Net, sun style C# is Java, but MS had to call it somethign different and change a few things to aviod the legalities of cloning java we like python plus I'm reasonably sure it runs on more platforms than java and definitely more than .Net =) the language abstraction features of .Neyt err, the PROPOSED abstraction is neat though Perl and Python are getting Parrot which is essentially the same thing Ooooo, is it like my old "cross-platform" VC 1.0 I got w/ my NT3 beta? compiles code that works in Win3.1, WinNT, Win95 (IIRC) hehe Parrot? The parrot is dead. hehe, cross platform VC He's be pushing up daisies if you hadn;t nailed him there I don't know why any lang can't be compiled for a java VM true though I have no idea why you'd want to java's vm isn't all that great M$ definition of "portable": run on w95, w98, *and* wnt! do that, and you;ve stolen the wind from .Net's sails dsmith: those are the only platforms out there.... Action: jhihn1 looks though MS's monopogoggles jhihn1: Yes. "out there". As in too far away to matter. bah, now you are talking crazy Action: dsmith hasn't used m$ in a *looong* time they are fine platforms for running Xfree86-cygwin or putty there is that Action: dsmith retreats back into lurk mode newbe question: what do I do after : common.php CVS gcomm.php print-gfd.inc connection.php database.inc gnue-forms.php settings.php whoops waht do i do after python setup-cvs.py plau I guess :-) play um you're there look in forms/samples/* for samples of gfd files that's what I did.. setup my gnue.conf to point to a db and hopped into the forms/samples directory and started playing with those the intro.gfd one doesn't require a db connection not all the forms require db access hrm... question then look in the gnue/samples/testcases I have python onmy machine (win32) but I installed it on the linux box I guess I have to login to that graphically or install it on my PC? or can I map a drive via samba? you could map the drive but I think getting it to run from cvs under windows is more involved if possible I'd log into the linux GUI doh! k btw: why the push for web client? Is this on an intranet? um, no... we house data here and want people to be able to run reports on thier data web is the easiest way forms is typically used for data entry/manipulation our reports engine has a output style of html for simple tabulation reports if they only need a few fields then I'd be tempted to setup something like zope/formulator to drive our reports engine well, that's an extension plus they have to enter in parameters... that would be a first step but evenually it'd be nice to have the application in its entirely on the web reports is #1a, app is #1b curses is #2 I was thinking about modal vs modeless support last night what's your web platform? in curses and why I thought we had to have modal and I remembered one of the main reasons without that kind of management it would be a bitch to get notebook controls to work the platform isnot done yet, but i'm pushing php/postgres notebook controls? tabbed pages I say hack it, and make ncurses apps support a redraw_window() so you dont have to track anything ah, you might consider zope/postgresql i did the php thing for a while as well if you have the parent-chicld relationship for the window, it should be just a recirsive functions but I'm saying it's just as easy to get it working right the first time :) I [love|hate] zope I've heard of it, seen it in action, don't know what the deal is about as you are still having *something* keep track of state of windows if you know what's on a dialog, the controls and thier values, then you can redraw rather than storing bits of screen, which may or may not be current the big deal imho is that zope lets me use very simple dtml markup to do pretty complex stuff then if the need arises I can use perl or python to do even more complex stuff all embeded in zope Action: jhihn1 cringes ar perl as do I yo but pyhon whoops the crap out of php perl rocks it develoves into the realm of unreadable so quickly james: even for web? Like 15 minutes later I ask myself what the hell is that line of code doing??? inside of zope....yes zope's docs are not the best so you'll go nuts at time trying to find out how to do "X" but zope has a ton of plug-ins take the formulator I mentioned above you define the form as objects in a directory add a few functions and you are done Action: jhihn1 listens intently it does input validation, length checking etc sounds like gnue to me :-) i coupled that with ZShellScripts and I can then run apps in all kinds of languages mmm the emedded developer in me is a control freak like one sample i have runs a gnue-report inside a bash shell pipes the output out as pdf file, resets the mime type in the html header and so the user ends up with a click here for pdf cool that is based upon the exact same grd file as what is internal and rendered on the fly.. nice yes jcater has done amazing things with zope as well (He's a donut powered AI fwiw) hehe my sample was originally based upon some stuff he did that extended zope internally zope lets you add functions to itself but I don't recall the details the zshellscripts let me do almost the same with w/o some of the nasty internals hrm... having said all that i hate zope :) it's backup system SUCKS I love zope ok... y? Action: jcater thwaps jamest oh I love zope too I just hate it as well jcater: can you honestly say you don't hate it as well? it also places all files into an internal zope database yeah there are some things I hate mainly the backup and lack of cvs-ability so you lose the ability to do things like run sed on your files I think I'll decline on Zope and the docs but it beats the hell out of php as that's what I replaced as did I how does it do that? well as an avid php person, I'm interested in my experience php is a hack started out as a hack and grew up into a bigger hack it has nice database abstraction now i like it i think you'll find that zope solutions require less code for the same result I like it for what it is