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<Mr_You> hi
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<l-fy> hello
<l-fy> i need some help with windows version of gnuenterprise
<wtg> i'd be happy to help if i can ... what are you having a problem with ?
<l-fy> i have no idee after i have finish a form
<l-fy> how to run that form
<wtg> you should be able to double click the form you save
<l-fy> where should i duble click
<l-fy> after i have save the file
<l-fy> ?
<wtg> yeah .... have you saved the form somewhere ?
<l-fy> yes
<l-fy> and i have duble click the form 
<l-fy> and nothing
<l-fy> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
<l-fy> is working
<l-fy> is working :)
<l-fy> thx
<wtg> =)
[10:03] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<l-fy> anyway
<l-fy> can i port a microsoft access application into gnu enterprise?
<wtg> sorry ... that's beyond me
<l-fy> i mean teoretical
<l-fy> can i do this?
<l-fy> is not complicated
<wtg> if you can get the data into a gnue supported db then ... i guess so 
<l-fy> yes i can
<l-fy> the problem are the forms
<wtg> what's wrong with the forms ?
<l-fy> i don't know how can i make a application independent without gnuenterprise
<l-fy> just to use gnue to design stuff
<dimas> l-fy: you need something to run forms
<l-fy> i know
<l-fy> what can i use
<l-fy> pyton?
<l-fy> or what?
<dimas> i do not quite understand the question
<dimas> if you do gnue application it would be mostly forms with triggers on python
<l-fy> i can run forms independent on gnuenterpise?, maybe i can use pyton for this?
<l-fy> i see
<wtg> you can just use gnue forms if you want .... you dont need to run any other part of gnue .... ie ... you dont need to run any of the packages like: Financials or Supply Chain
<l-fy> be back later i must clean my place
<wtg> =) so should i
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<dimas> l-fy: you need gnue-forms and gnue-common libraries installed
<derek> l-fy: yes
<derek> its somewhat easy to port
<derek> depending on application size
<derek> if you choose postgres there are a number of tools that 'port' the database and its data
<derek> then you would just have to make screens to match your access ones (pretty easy withwizards)
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Action: l-fy back :)
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<Mr_You> anyone have any thoughts on how workflow is expected to be done in gnuenterprise?
<dcmwai> I think we should apoint when we should be meeting soon.
<Mr_You> whatcha meeting about?
<dcmwai> I'm free on most of the time. from 10am~6pm (GMT+8) and sometime after 11pm ~ 2am (GMT+8). I'll try to suit you guy if possible.
<Mr_You> ?
<dcmwai> Mr_You: For Arias and Gnue-sb Join :)
<Mr_You> url for arias?
<dcmwai> Join Detail
<dcmwai> wait
<dcmwai> http://sourceforge.net/projects/arias
<Mr_You> looks pretty neat
<Mr_You> I wanna make my app compatible with GNUe but I don't think anybody has any idea how workflow will be done.
<dcmwai> workflow?
<Mr_You> where are ya'll from?  I'm in North Carolina, USA.
<dcmwai> I'm from Malaysia
<Mr_You> yeah document workflow, ie. when someone fills out document A it needs to be approved by Manage C, etc.
<Mr_You> Manager C
<dcmwai> Ahaha...
<Mr_You> Documents can TimeOut, be Rejected, Acknowledged, Auto Routed.
<dcmwai> that is a very hard part.
<Mr_You> whats so funny?
<Mr_You> not really.
<dcmwai> Something I found during all these time doing arias...
<Mr_You> where's the rest of your team from also?
<dcmwai> different people/country and different way of doing it.. and sometime it didn
<dcmwai> didn't really make sense to you and me but it make sense to the one who is using
<Mr_You> workflow is a pretty international idea... 
<Mr_You> yeah I know whatyou mean
<dcmwai> If and If the company applying have any standard... :)
<Mr_You> not sure I follow you there.
<dcmwai> Guess who is using our software (arias and but gune-sb)
<Mr_You> how could I guess?
<Mr_You> small business might be interested, I have no idea who is using it.
<dcmwai> our Targeted user are normall company that is small in scale and changing to "E" Electrical
<Mr_You> electronic?
<Mr_You> nod
<dcmwai> sorry... in Malayia they like the E-*** too much like E-Cash, E-Biz and etc  and E meant electronic :)
<Mr_You> only problem I have with apps like nola and aria and dcl, etc, etc, etc.. is they force you to use what the programmers came up with.
<dcmwai> YES..
<Mr_You> yeah no problem, its used heavily around here.
<dcmwai> that is what arias is actually trying to implement module base after the rewite (before thinking the idea of joining gnue)
<dcmwai> so that different groups/country can have a different modules..
<dcmwai> But that isn't important now, as using gnue, things and be dramatically dynamic... and it solve all problem just that... building so will take alot of time :(
<dcmwai> You will have to forgive me, I've to sleep now. (it is 2.31 am) Talk to you later. Mr_You
<Mr_You> nice chatting, ttyl
<Mr_You> sleep well
<derek> dcmwai: you dont seem to understand copyright is the "legal" tool the GPL uses to have any teeth ;0 re: email
<derek> and fwiw SCO is indeed taking patent and copyright to issue with the Linux kernel
<derek> but i have to run again
<derek> bbiab
<dcmwai> derek: I didn't read all cluse in GPL and Copyright yet. Maybe when I'm free I'll have to read all them :(
<dcmwai> anyway.... my mind is blank right now :)
<dcmwai> talk to you soon...
<dsmith> I'm understanding what you are talking about with work-flow a little more.
<dsmith> At the last place I worked (Altus) I was trying to get time sheets automated.
<dsmith> And integrated with quickbooks.
<dsmith> One big big issue is that the customer has to sign the sheet.
<Mr_You> nod ;-)
<dsmith> We were thinking about ways to let the customer approve the sheet with a web based form.
<dsmith> But then there are security issues. Cutsomers looking at other customers projects, etc.
<Mr_You> I'd like to get something started in GNUe so that my app is somewhat GNUe compatible.
<dsmith> With a piece of paper, you can wave it under his nose and he will sign it, but try an get them to go to a web page with tricky authentication.
<Mr_You> right now, I'm thinking the workflow engine would run in cron to automate/timeout/etc.
<Mr_You> atleast for me..
<Mr_You> I don't care how GNUe does it.
<Mr_You> I just want to get the method and definitions down.
<Mr_You> dsmith: one "solution" (for that scenario) could be the user receives an email with a url to the document he must "sign"..
<Mr_You> no authentication really needed.
<dsmith> Mr_You: Intresting.
<Mr_You> if the approval/reject document doesn't contain sensitive information or access to that.
<Mr_You> of course the url to that document would contain a "random key"
<Mr_You> to make it a little more secure.
<dsmith> Yes,
<dsmith> s/,/./
<dsmith> Can't be too tricky though (like a long key).  Some people will need to type it in by hand.  But Yes, I understand.  I like it.
<Mr_You> why would they need to do that?  couldn't they copy and paste it?
<dsmith> Mr_You: Maybe.  And maybe not!
<Mr_You> I can't think of a scenario where someone would be required to type it in unless they had to switch from one computer to another ;-)
<dsmith> Mr_You: I've seen that.
<Mr_You> then they have bigger problems ;-)
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<dsmith> Anyway, it doesn't matter to me much anymore, because I don't work there.
<Mr_You> wonder how long before someone in GNUe will be interested.
<dsmith> The whole "customer calls; trouble ticket generated; worker logs time; time approved; bill generated" sequence ought to be fairly common.
<dsmith> Any service industry.
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<Mr_You> yeah
<Mr_You> but how long will it take GNUe to get there?  ;-)
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<dsmith> Yeah.  Well I would have used gnue for it, except for the lack of a good web interface.
<Mr_You> my project is mainly a web interface.. but I'll make it semi-compatible with GNUe..
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<derek> Mr-You: grep the logs over past three years for workflow
<derek> i have spoken ad nausem about it
Action: derek thinks it is NOT just another part of appserver
<derek> but i dont feel like going into full details yet again until it gets to the implementation stage (which is not where we are at)
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<Mr-You> ok, well I can't wait forever, as I already have been, how can I help?
<Mr-You> what will it take to get to designing workflow for GNUe?
<Mr-You> I'm not concerned with implementation, just getting the nuts and bolts down.
<Mr-You> I'll implement it in my own software.
<Mr-You> in other words, I would love to help get the specs down.
<Mr-You> gotta be done at some point in time.
<Mr-You> would hate to be forced to create my own breaking potential compatibility with GNUe
<Mr-You> I'm not there yet at this moment, but I hope to be in the next few months.
<Mr-You> I guess I'll submit some proposals and get ya'lls input then
<derek> if you are going to write your own
<derek> why not write GNU Enterprise Workflow?
<Mr-You> exactly what I'm wanting to do ;-)
<derek> i have to get head back in that mode
<derek> the key pieces i see as being necessary for success
<Mr-You> I haven't found one that I wanted to integrate with except GNUe
<derek> 1. highly flexible (non programmer) way to define flow
<derek> 2. multiple transport mechanism
<Mr-You> tikiwiki has new galaxia 
<Mr-You> based on zope 
<derek> for part 1 i think of xml based rule flow
<Mr-You> all I need is part 1 righr now ;-)
<derek> for part 2 i mean just like we are UI and Database agnostic, so too should we be 'notification' agnostic
<derek> i.e. we should support web, email, jabber etc etc etc
<derek> i had diagrams and docs somewhere
<derek> but its been a while
<Mr-You> well right now, to get the limited functionality I need, I don't think I'll need to require a GNUe installation.
<Mr-You> so it would be my own http XML enabled GNUe workflow engine.
<Mr-You> based on GNUe rule definitions
<Mr-You> actually
<Mr-You> at first it might not do http, it might just run in cron 
<Mr-You> but you could interact with it via imported file.
<derek> i refuse to continue if you insist on reinventing the wheel
<derek> i.e. it would be silly to not re-use gnue-common
<Mr-You> this will isn't invented yet
<Mr-You> wheel
<derek> as it already has rpc communication necessary for 'notifications'
<Mr-You> why would I need gnue-common for a few widgets?
<derek> it has strong xml parsing engines
<derek> nevermind
Action: derek doesnt have time to waste explaining
<Mr-You> see
<chillywilly> derek: be nice
<Mr-You> this is odd
Action: chillywilly thwaps derek
<Mr-You> nothing exist..
<Mr-You> I want to create something..
Action: derek has to learn to pick his battles and trying to convince people not to write php XXXX instead of using architectures is fruitless
<Mr-You> but no one wants to collaborate with me cause it doesn't use the main branch
<Mr-You> and I'm talking about really simple stuff
<derek> Mr-You: sorry didnt mean to be rude about (seriously)
<derek> i know digging into the GNU Enterprise framework isnt a ten second thing
<derek> and hacking something up that works in php/perl etc is much more alluring 
<Mr-You> I have to learn a whole new programming language and increase my installation requirements blah blah blah just to put a few widgets on the screen and enable simple workflow?
<derek> and there is something to be said for getting something out the door and working
<derek> just i dont have time to run that track right now, hopefully you can understand i appreciate the side you come from and you can do likewise
<Mr-You> I've already written that "dummy" XML viewer/table forms client thing
<Mr-You> there is one not-so-maintained python plugin for webmin.
<Mr-You> hrrm
<Mr-You> I will revisit it, but damn it sucks.
<Mr-You> cause I have no idea how to use gnue-common
<derek> what is the pressing need for this workflow?
<Mr-You> there is none, I originally was asking if anyone was interested in working on it.
<Mr-You> I said 3 months.
<Mr-You> my application is to integrate webmin and GNUe with limited functionality.. as the web limits functionality. I will look into the beta? version python webmin plugin and see if I can learn how to integrate with gnue-common.
<Mr-You> but I've never programmed in python and I have no idea how to use gnue-common.
<Mr-You> I guess like any other library function calls?
<Mr-You> eww its been updated.
<Mr-You> gonna contact this guy
<dsmith> Hmm.  Workflow.  Would that be in any way similar to ibm's MQSeries thing?
<dsmith> Messaging.
<dsmith> The jabber bit sounds intresting.
<derek> dsmith: nope
<derek> MSMQ and MQSeries are basically asynchronous RPC
<derek> imho
<derek> i.e. xml-rpc, soap etc are synchronous RPC
<derek> messaging in sense i was conveying was more like 'notification'
<dsmith> Async, right.
<derek> i.e. how do you get the 'user' the 'message' that something needs to be done
<dsmith> Ahh. Ok.
<dsmith> I'm thinking email, pdas, text messaging phones, and pagers.
<derek> yip all those are good
<derek> sms probably is not an all bad choice
<derek> email is most common
<derek> im thinking jabber would be interesting and have jabber embedded into GNU Enterprise framework (optionally)
<derek> so when you login to a GNU Enterprise application you have a little 'message' status bar
<dsmith> Jabber sounds cool.  But you need the right custom <thing, transport?>
<dsmith> Are there jabber interfaces to sms and email?
Action: dsmith looks
<dsmith> Hmm.  I see a problem with jabber <-> smtp.  The address format is the same but is completely different.
<dsmith> No way to tell if it's an email or a jabber address just by looking at it.
<dsmith> Yes, there are sms and smtp trasports for jabber.  Intresting.
<derek> thinking too linear
<derek> i suspect we will support all of those things
<derek> i.e. even within a company someone may like IM more than e-Mail
<derek> or prefer both
<derek> i know most 'approval' things i would want email
<derek> as IM or a page is reserved for 'important' things
<derek> so something that coudl be 'new' is 'importance' 
<derek> i.e. generally within an accounting system all P.O.'s are created equal (or at most by date)
<derek> here if say i want two new programming books 
<derek> likely i dont want the CIO paged so his butt rushes the 'approval'
<derek> however if our server's RAM just flipped out and we had to take it off line until we get more
<derek> i might want him to approve the thing in the next 5 minutes (and he would want to) ;)
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<chillywilly> soap and xmlrpc are async too
<chillywilly> well i suppose if they're not using http then they are
<chillywilly> or can be
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<jbailey> Heya Andrew.
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<chillywilly> hi all
<wtg> g'day chillywilly
<chillywilly> howdy
<wtg> ever used/experienced peoplesoft before?
<wtg> cause in my limited experience their shithouse 
<chillywilly> HEH
<chillywilly> no, can't say that I have
<wtg> my uni is implementing a system at the moment .... not good
<chillywilly> ack
<wtg> but at least they haven't lost our data yet ... which rumour has it happened to an Adelaide uni 
<wtg> =) bad day at work when that happens i would imagine =))
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<derek> wtg: my govt is implementing them :(
<derek> btw: oracle is positioning to hostile takeover peoplesoft
<derek> as part of this they are killing all peoplesoft products
<ajmitch> now that's just wonderful news
<derek> in fact if it goes through
<ajmitch> squash the competition
<derek> they will instantly stop all development of peoplesoft products
<derek> and will prevent any new sales
<derek> in fact, already peoplesoft has stopped all sales
<derek> it's really rather frightening, but if it can maybe make us not use windows sometime, im all for it :)
--- Mon Jun  9 2003