yes it do.. I'd say things have improved pretty well in the last six months.. I'm impressed all over again everytime I use designer, now.. :) it's become *very* useable.. Cool It seemed to still be pretty early when I looked at it dsmith (cc3q9a15rw@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1d-165.clvhoh.adelphia.net) got netsplit. steveb (~steveb@202-0-60-182.adsl.paradise.net.nz) got netsplit. paq_ (~paq@202.155.9.188) got netsplit. wilco (~wcooley@haus.nakedape.cc) left #gnuenterprise ("Connection reset by beer"). dsmith (cc3q9a15rw@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1d-165.clvhoh.adelphia.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. steveb (~steveb@202-0-60-182.adsl.paradise.net.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise. paq_ (~paq@202.155.9.188) returned to #gnuenterprise. thierry (~thierry@musashi.xtensive.com) got netsplit. LuftHans (~lufthans@wsip-68-107-221-207.ph.ph.cox.net) got netsplit. steveb (~steveb@202-0-60-182.adsl.paradise.net.nz) got netsplit. dsmith (cc3q9a15rw@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1d-165.clvhoh.adelphia.net) got netsplit. paq_ (~paq@202.155.9.188) got netsplit. thierry (~thierry@musashi.xtensive.com) got lost in the net-split. LuftHans (~lufthans@wsip-68-107-221-207.ph.ph.cox.net) got lost in the net-split. paq_ (~paq@202.155.9.188) got lost in the net-split. steveb (~steveb@202-0-60-182.adsl.paradise.net.nz) got lost in the net-split. dsmith (cc3q9a15rw@oh-strongsvillecadent1-1d-165.clvhoh.adelphia.net) got lost in the net-split. jcater (~jcater@cpe-066-061-071-129.midsouth.rr.com) got netsplit. chillywilly (danielb@CPE-24-167-193-95.wi.rr.com) got netsplit. jcater (~jcater@cpe-066-061-071-129.midsouth.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@CPE-24-167-193-95.wi.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. paq_ (~paq@202.155.9.188) joined #gnuenterprise. thierry (~thierry@musashi.xtensive.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hi all cmot (~login@zux006-024-254.adsl.green.ch) joined #gnuenterprise. morning cmot Morning mouns (mouns@kali.mouns.org) joined #gnuenterprise. dneighbo (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hello dneighbo dimas (~dimas@195.218.177.46) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) dimas (~dimas@195.218.177.46) joined #gnuenterprise. hi dimas :) derek (~dneighbo@cpe-24-221-112-50.az.sprintbbd.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) hello thierry :) cmot (~login@zux006-024-254.adsl.green.ch) left irc: "See you in a bit..." Vee2d2 (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ts46v-07.otn-c1.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. Vee2d2 (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ts46v-07.otn-c1.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) joined #gnuenterprise. wb Vee2d2 pr0c (~pr0c@208.44.104.1) left irc: "Client exiting" reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.164.115) joined #gnuenterprise. R45 (~rastabeen@cuscon2181.tstt.net.tt) joined #gnuenterprise. ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. howdy jamest dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.164.115) left irc: "Client exiting" hello it's crazy how nice a machine you can build these days for ~$100 ? the cheapest cpu i've seen is 30 $30 case, $30 cpu doesn't leave much left for parts :) who needs 'm.. ? ;) all ya really need is a network card I have a garage full of cases so wasnt thinking about that, but you could make one from about anything (Copper!) for $18 a pop I could upgrade all my pentium boards to k6-2 500 :) another $20/pop and they'd each have 128M ram too.. well.. if they did sdram.. which I doubt they do.. wonder where the hell I could even find 72pin memory these days obsoleteAndExpensiveComputerEquipment.com? yea.. might be more cost effective to simply upgrade the mb's which negates the point of getting all this crap out of my garage.. ;) lol think I may just spend a day breaking it all down into boxes and stuff to throw away.. pack all the hard drives in a box.. all the network cards in another.. etc.. Action: Vee2d2 finds motivation to work on gnue-sb inventory module lol what class machines you pitching? not sure.. I think the majority of the lot are 486's.. maybe I'll build new enclosures for 'em and make firewall/printserver things out of 'm.. several are retrofitted into XT cases 486s work for ltsp terminals well, my problem there is non of them have very good video hw so at best they'd be good remote consoles, which I dont have much use for.. or you could do something like http://bofh.be/clusterknoppix/ hehe and have a cluster for compiling Action: jamest really wants to try out ltsp/mosix setup I bought it all for $1 and everyone pretty well laughed that anyone had bought it at all.. bunch of windows wankers they were, however.. I jokingly told them I would build a parallel network to combine all their power into one nice system.. there you go clusterknoppix or openmosix alone would do that jbailey (~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com) joined #gnuenterprise. just reading some interesting texts about the GFDL I start to doubt seriously if the GFDL is the correct license for GNUe Documentation bah http://home.twcny.rr.com/nerode/neroden/fdl.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2003/debian-legal-200307/msg00108.html especially the latter is quite interesting hi reinhard, chillywilly I've read the former hi thierry reinhard: the latter is just someone whining and trying to place balme elsewhere...it is a sad fact in this day and age you have to jump through so mnay hoops in order to cover your backside legally, but I hardly blame it on the GFDL reinhard: Please try hard to avoid the GFDL. If you use it, please try hard to avoid invariant sections. I'll be shortly moving Glibc's documentation to non-free in Debian. I think GCC's documentation is already there. chillywilly: if i write a documentation jbailey: too late I _want_ it to be usable in manpages I think the GNU wya would be info pages ;) chillywilly: i don't think it's too late i can always relicense the stuff i wrote especially to a "weaker" license didn't you assign copyright to FSF? hmmm yes true you're right I think you get am exlcusively license on what you wrote though exclusive so we would have to sort it out with the FSF those assignment papers are sorta confusing I think Derek has a grasp on it though sigh i wonder if we can't license under 2 licenses since we're already gfdl covered by gfdl and "foo" however, if the FSF says it is ok to leave out the GFDL in evey man page or whatever they have the right to do so that's not binding "sure, you can take my car" "hello, 911 my car was stolen" they do have copyright don't they? that's my point they should probably reevaluate the GFDL...but I alos see RMS's point he doesn't want people changing the author's "opinion" either and making it easy to defraud them the main point is i don't see _any_ advantages for us from the restrictions the gfdl places but i see _many_ disadvantages for our users reinhard: Keep in mind that the copyright holders can do whatever they'd like with the documents. So you just need to figure out with the FSF what license the man pages should be under and write them. I would hope that a little more tact would be in order since we are part of GNU...like discussing with some FSF about what to do FSF folk chillywilly: that's what i'm proposing yea...that was like the first thing you said ;) Sorry ;) lxf (~agus_tea@202.73.120.115) joined #gnuenterprise. I noticed on Python's site that 2.3 might be released in the next week or so. Will python development move to requiring it? lxf (~agus_tea@202.73.120.115) left irc: Operation timed out i doubt it Okay, cool. we try and stay about where the distro's so I imagine we'll stick w/ 2.0 for a while longer sigh, i've got a system that is screwed GNU Shakespear "According to the Authors, the language has the expressiveness of BASIC and the user friendliness of assembly language." ls shows an entry in a directory ppkeys ls -al doesn't it's a dir but rmdir says no dir here and rm says input/output error Sounds like fsck time. fsck shows clean Even when you force it? what switch do you pass? i didn't see a force in the man pages -f I think. Yeah e2fsck -f ah, that work on ext3? Yup cool, thanks I think if worse comes to worse it just invalidates the journal and rebuilds it. lxf (~agus_tea@202.73.120.115) joined #gnuenterprise. this is still wack as i've been running ext3 on s/w raid5 for over a year in the last 2 weeks i've had 2 systems ext3s belly up before that nothing running 2.4.18 Seems strange - I've never had one go. nor had i Action: jbailey looks forward to the next Debian stable being out. good thing is i've only got all my critial systems setup like this Hard to think that it's only been a year since woody released. Action: jamest looks at list backport list ah, it's not that hard to think about it :) Well, a year isn't that long, really. So if it's 18 months between the releases, that's not too bad. dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.57.131) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (~dsmith@mail.actron.com) joined #gnuenterprise. true but is it on target for 18 months? and more importantly so you think it'll be as far out of date as woody was at release s/so/do Hard to say. I think there's a reasonable chance of it being on target. The out-of-dateness is harder to predict. Part of the problem with woody was that there were last minute delays when they realised the infrastructure wasn't able to cope with the release. dsmith (~dsmith@mail.actron.com) left irc: "Client exiting" In the fall, Gnome 2.4 will release, but it's hard to say whether that would make it. I'm guess yes. It's not as ugly as the gnome1->gnome2 transition from what I've read. well, i dont' mind gnome being out of date :) I do. I want to deploy it on several hundred desktops. Right now I have to run unstable everywhere. Time f?r lunch. dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.57.131) left irc: "Client exiting" lgfh (~lgfh@81.6.200.80) joined #gnuenterprise. lxf (~agus_tea@202.73.120.115) left irc: Operation timed out dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.57.131) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard: just read the logs and for what it's worth, I agree we should seriously re-evaluate our GFDL usage Action: jcater imagines that's worth, oh, approximately this much: >< Well, the copyright holders can generally dictate the license. One solution I've seen applied though is that folks have refused to add invariant clauses. Basically telling the FSF that if they want them, they need to add it themselves. high-peak-soft (~Eric@dupa110105.wright.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. I am considering implementing some web-accessible church management software (a species of CRM) to support the activities of a small missions organization. If I do this, it will be my first open-source project and my first python project (though I have several years of experience with C++ and Java). Before I start working on this I want to know if I have a chance or if I should just implement a less ambitious non-web scheme by myself in dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.57.131) left irc: "Client exiting" high-peak-soft: cool high-peak-soft: you and dneighbo (derek) will have to chat.. I believe he does a fair bit of stuff for his church using gnue tools It sounds like you think it is a doable project. From your experience with the gnuE tools, starting today, how long do you think it would take me to generate a about 5 tables, about 5 reports, and about 3 forms for data-entry, all of these being accessible to an http/html client? Vee2d2 (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ts46v-07.otn-c1.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) The html forms stuff isn't done yet. I have some sketches, but ran out of time. =( Vee2d2 (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ts46v-07.otn-c1.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey: do you mean ran out of time before a release? No, I ran out of time before I learned enough python to write it. What would need to be done to get it working? (or should I check the TODOs) It depends on the difference between working and working right. The basic HTML forms should use CSS layout to put it on the screen, but CSS doesn't provide a perfect grid to work with. So fully working right needs to convince the gnuef people that laying things out on grids is suboptimal. =) Also, there's no way to identify easily which tags are associated with which inputs, and that's another architecture change in designer. So given ugly layout, and thumbing your nose at accessibility, I'm suspecting that a competant python programmer could have it displaying HTML in 20 to 30 hours of coding. All the rest of your requirements are trivial. Designer handles those nicely. That is nice to hear. Since, for my application, the downsides would be acceptable (at least temporarily), and since I have some time (at least temporarily) do you think it would be wise for me to try to "get it working" In order to contribute to GNUe, you need to have assignment papers on file. So, unless you'll have time in a couple of weeks, it's probably not worth going through the hassle. That said - Does it have to be HTML? There's a Win32 client, and a Unix client. In general, native clients will suck less than web clients. I think HTML is a must. but the web is a nice common denominator My users will be accessing from machines that are not theirs So installing a client will be a problem. On second thought, though, I might have them download and run the client each time. How big are the Win32 clients, and do they require any support files (shared libraries especially)? chillywilly (danielb@CPE-24-167-193-95.wi.rr.com) left irc: "leaving" chillywilly (danielb@CPE-24-167-193-95.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (~chatzilla@mail.actron.com) joined #gnuenterprise. thierry_ (~thierry@musashi.xtensive.com) joined #gnuenterprise. thierry (~thierry@musashi.xtensive.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) lgfh (~lgfh@81.6.200.80) left #gnuenterprise. R45 (~rastabeen@cuscon2181.tstt.net.tt) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) dsmith (~chatzilla@mail.actron.com) left irc: "ChatZilla 0.8.31 [Mozilla rv:1.4/20030624]" high-peak-soft (~Eric@dupa110105.wright.edu) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" R45 (~rastabeen@cuscon317.tstt.net.tt) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: mouns vous souhaite une bonne nuit mouns (mouns@kali.mouns.org) left irc: Remote closed the connection R45 (~rastabeen@cuscon317.tstt.net.tt) left irc: ToyMan (~stuq@65-73-212-126.bras01.mdl.ny.frontiernet.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) left #gnuenterprise ("Client exiting"). jbailey (~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com) left irc: "Client exiting" pr0c (~pr0c@208.44.104.1) joined #gnuenterprise. lupo__ (~lupo@p5085F6F8.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hiho reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P000.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Wouldn't it be wonderful if real life supported Control-Z?" stuq_ (~stuq@209-63-100-235.bras01.mdl.ny.frontiernet.net) joined #gnuenterprise. 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