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<[Rainman]> hi all
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<[Rainman]> hi guys
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<dcmwai> anynews on the application server with web output yet?
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<derek> grrrr. i cant open evolution under KDE (*how sad is that)
<derek> but i need to get my "tasks" brb switching to gnoem for a minute
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<jamest> btami: i saw some scrollbar commits
<jamest> you added working scrollbar tied to record navigation ?
<jamest> s/added/adding
<btami> yes
<jamest> cool
<jamest> is it complete?
<btami> some ideas from papo
<btami> yes
<btami> but not tested too much
<jamest> ah, i didn't notice, is only win32 widget supported
<btami> moment...
<btami> back
<btami> wx, and win32 is ready
<jamest> cool
<btami> i have to say some thigs are not clear to me
<btami> scrollbars now only for blocks with rows="xx"
<btami> but tere is entry with rows="xx" too
<btami> there
<jamest> why scrollbars only for rows="XX"
<jamest> they really shouldn't care about the # of visible rows
<btami> hmm
<jamest> because the block rows="xx" is a shortcut for putting rows on each item
<jamest> s/item/entry
Action: jamest has some forms with block rows=10 and individual fields = 1
<jamest> so the commonly altered fields are in a grid
<jamest> and the less altered, more detail related fields only display for the current "selected" record
<jamest> am I making sense?
<btami> yes
<btami> then you dont want to use rows for page size in scrollbars ?
<jamest> that I don't know
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<jamest> i assume that the scrollbar setup just does a jumpToRecord = current +/- X
<btami> and X=?
<dcmwai> currenr recordset
<jamest> X = whatever you've done now
<jamest> rows?
<dcmwai> oh :)
<jamest> i've not looked at what you've done
<jamest> i'm asking if that is what it is now
<btami> :)
<jamest> move scrollbar 1 unit and it moves currentRecord +/- X
<jamest> is that right?
<jamest> and you calculate X based upon the rows
<btami> yes
<jamest> I'm wondering if X should be an increment attrib of <scrollbar>
<jamest> my concern with this is slider size
<jamest> i have no clue how you'd dynamically set that
<jamest> i'm going to soon get a copy of the us zip+4 database
<jamest> that's 30 million entries
<jamest> puting a scrollbar on the zipcode sample form 
<jamest> how in the world would you scale that :)
<jamest> you see records 1 thru 10 of 30,000,000
<jamest> so size the slider to 10/30,000,000th of the total bar size ? :)
<dcmwai> haha ;)
<jamest> oooooo
<jamest> mabye I could use that as an argument for them buying me a huge new monitor
<siesel> jamest: btw. it seems that the record count function is broken for some db drivers. So it would only be 10/10 records until you move it down.
<dcmwai> You will need a Very huge Monitor to display all 30,000,000 at a shoot ;)
<jamest> siesel: record count sucks
<jamest> we've got a few ways to do it
<jamest> the python db cursor (IIRC) should return the number of records it's going to pull
<jamest> but it doesn't always work
<jamest> i had a select count(*) in there but that started giving me troubles with someone using the distinct option
<jamest> on datasources
<siesel> the other ways (SELECT COUNT...) seems to have other drawback, or you wouldn't have changed it
<jamest> select count(distinct *) from foo where bar="111";
<jamest> isn't valid sql
<jamest> which is how it was working
<jamest> someone was using distinct on a datasource and it was blowing up forms
Action: dcmwai kept on listening
<jamest> but if I removed the distinct from the select count(*) then it was returning too big a number in those cases
<siesel> possibly we should add a flag per driver or move the select count stuff into a seperate function, which can be inherited
<jamest> the count stuff does need moved to each driver
<jamest> but are db drivers that don't return the proper count considered broken?
<siesel> yes, they should :)
<siesel> bbl
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<btami> jamest: do you want to chage scrollbar page size from rows="xx" of block to
<btami> page="xx" of scrollbar ?
<jamest> i dunno
<jamest> i never thought this thru
<jamest> just added the basic scrollbar placeholder and quit :)
<btami> please play with current implementation first,
<jamest> in the hopes some fool^H^H^H^Hvictim^H^H^H^H^H^H one else would implement it :)
<btami> :)
<jamest> i will do so today
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<jamest> right now I'm in java mode
Action: jamest luvs that java
<btami> btw. i have 1 problem with scrollbars
<jamest> you should talk to the guy that's working on them now
<jamest> yeah, thats it
<btami> it comes from "entry with not accurate" bug
<btami> in win32 i'v added a correction
<btami>     height = self.itemHeight+2
<btami>     width = self.itemWidth+8
<btami> in entry.py
<btami> and width="1" is correct now
<btami> for an entry
<btami> but wx, gtk2, qt has the bug
<jamest> i don't get the entry width isn't accurate bug
<jamest> we set the width of the char to the max width of chars reported by the ui system
<btami> try to create a form
<jamest> i've seen it on zipcodes
<btami> with 1 entry width="1"
<btami> and try and use it
<btami> the cursor and the border needs some pixels 
<jamest> yeah, i've seen this
<btami> so, if i put a scrollbar into a gfd with x="xx"
<btami> it's good for wx and others
<btami> but owerlaps in win32
<btami> koz in win32 entry widgets are wider a bit ( 8 pixel)
<btami> :(
<jamest> :(
<btami> if you don't like this problem to solve, i have another bug for you:)
<btami> <btami> jcater: the prequery="Y" not the same as prepare query than exec query
<btami> <btami> the first doesn't fires triggers
<btami> <jcater> hmm
<btami> <btami> doesn't sets up scrollbars
<btami> <jcater> that's a bug
<btami> :)
Action: dcmwai yawn*
<jamest> gack!
<dcmwai> sh: -c: line 1: syntax error near unexpected token `newline'
<dcmwai> sh: -c: line 1: `time'
<dcmwai> :(
<dcmwai> ¤é  8¤ë 24 00:58:04 MYT 2003
<jamest> dcmwai?
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<jamest> i think the prequery="Y" is done in the datasources
Action: dcmwai just tell it is very late and need to sleep now :)
<jamest> vs the other stuff is handled at the form level
<jamest> i seriously doubt this will be as simple as moving the prequery into a later phase during phaseInit
<jamest> as i don't think the query triggers are even in the datasource
<jamest> i'll try and take a look this afternoon as I **need** to gnue
<jamest> i'm sick of this java shit
<jamest> er, i mean, I'm sick of working on my current project
<btami> no, you like it :)
<jamest> i do?
<jamest> are you sure?
<btami> no
<btami> :)
<jamest> :)
<btami> jamest: have you got any idea how to solve this entry width issue?
<jamest> not really
<jamest> as the UI is supposed to tell us the max width 
<jamest> if it's wrong i'm not sure what to do
<jamest> oooooo
<btami> no, it's not wrong, but
<jamest> we get the max width of character
<jamest> but we never ask for the current spacing between characters
<jamest> should we have to do that?
<jamest> as IIRC there is nothing that tracks the space between the letters w and we in "we"
<btami> no, the problem is not this
<jamest> ok
<btami> the ui tells us the correct max width of char
<btami> for output
<btami> but tells nothing about extra width needed for input
<btami> this is the problem, IMO
<jcater> I've been wondering
<jamest> around the block?
<jcater> if we shouldn't just make all fonts inside controls be 1 pt size smaller
<jcater> as we set combo boxes, buttons, etc, to fill in a 12 pt character cell
<jcater> but then try to put 12 pt text inside it
<jamest> works for me 
<jcater> might make combo boxes behave too
<jcater> as far as sizing goes
<jamest> another nice font issue
<jamest> if I run forms remote the fonts are wack
<jamest> and changes per machine
<jamest> i have 3 machines 
<jamest>   newton - my gnue box , headless
<jamest>   hobbes - my workstation
<jamest>   justapc - a user workstatoin
<jamest> runing forms on newtom from hobbes everthing looks fine
<jamest> runing forms on newtom from justapc everthing is much, much smaller.  barely readable
<jamest> setting the pointSize per user is ok, but if the justapc user logs into hobbes they will be way too big
<jamest> btami: what do you think about font size suggestion?
<btami> i don't know enough about fonts 
<btami> 1 pt=? pixel
<btami> it will solve width="1" entry problem really?
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<jcater> it's worth testing
<jamest> i wonder how it'll handle missing font sizes
<jamest> as aren't some fonts only really availabe in 12,10,8,etc
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> I offer suggestions
<jcater> and you have to come up w/negatives
<jcater> :)
<jamest> it's what i do
Action: dcmwai is away: Sleeping, Good Night
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<jcater> hey psu
<psu> hi
<psu> gnue traffic 95 has gone off to be posted, should be up RSN
<psu> and i've been keen and made a start on #96 (due next Sat)
<jamest> cool
<jamest> is there a working sample of scrollbar somewhere?
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<psu> hi derek
<psu> Vee2d2: see http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiGettingStartedFaq
<psu> re wiki
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<LuftHans> on my system the fill in fields use a smaller font already
<LuftHans> it looks funny when you hit max chars without hitting the end of the field, but it's not that big of a deal
<LuftHans> I had another setup where the filled in text overfilled the field, that's worse
<btami> yeah
<btami> what  is the difference of two setup?
<LuftHans> btami: I don't know
<btami> :)
<LuftHans> I think they were even both on the same system as I only have GNUe installed on one machine :)
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<derek> i missed something.....
<LuftHans> derek: is the image ready for next Sat?
<LuftHans> perspiring minds want to know
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<derek> no
<derek> they had gaming tournament
<derek> and wouldn't let us come down today
<derek> going to try to do on friday (sigh)
<LuftHans> hmm, what do you need?
<LuftHans> could I try to set it up during the week?
<derek> well depends on what they want
<LuftHans> Could you get a disk image at home, then plug it in and see if it works?
<derek> personally it sounds like they have no GNU/Linux experience
<derek> they are typical "i installed red hat" user
<LuftHans> derek: they're close
Action: derek can not see how any self respecting GNU/Linux user could use anything but debian on a server
<derek> imho
<LuftHans> supposedly they got someone who knows what he's doing, though
<derek> s/user/administrator
<derek> but it looks like we will have to install debian on a workstation if we want debian (which isnt worth it to me)
<LuftHans> derek: I know intelligent people who do worse thinks like using *BSD or Solaris  :)
<derek> i dont have time to do a debian instal lwith LTSP
<derek> seriously BSD or Solaris isnt bad choice
<derek> i.e. i can see reasons for using them
<derek> i cant see reasson for red hat :)
<derek> on server
<derek> but i digress
<derek> i dont want to configure crap
<derek> so i will probalby use their red hat image
<LuftHans> how about Knoppix LTSP?
Action: derek just knows i will be spending 6 hours installing GNU Enterprise
Action: LuftHans needs to try that.
<LuftHans> that quick?  :)
<derek> 4 of it downloading dependencies and remembering how in the hell to init and configure postgers on a stupid machine
<derek> LuftHans: on a debian box i can install GNU Enterprise in about 30 minutes w/ high speed connection
<derek> if not 15
<LuftHans> well, put postgres on your laptop
<derek> i have postgres on my laptop
<derek> just my laptop isnt "secured"
<LuftHans> then you don't need to install it elsewhere :)
<derek> so not sure i would enjoy putting it on public network
<derek> but that was my backup contigency plan
Action: derek runs to beat his children
<LuftHans> I can put together a debian 'server' for the event. let me know what you want on it. I can probably give you network access to it during the week, so you can set stuff up
<derek> LuftHans: that might work
<derek> as long as you dont do frankenstein debian
<derek> er woody or sid right from repositories
<derek> no knoppix crap etc. :)
Action: derek is picky
<LuftHans> nope, all debian all the time
<derek> basically until recently i was still using potato disks
<LuftHans> woody or sarge
<derek> then doing an dist-upgrade
<derek> no sarge
<derek> woody or sid
<derek> erek> er woody or sid right from repositories
<derek> sarge is sh!t
<LuftHans> sarge is good
Action: derek wont fight a sarge box
<derek> sid or woody or its not worth your effort 
<LuftHans> the only sarge probs I have are with video stuff from unofficial sources
<derek> sarge is just poorly supported
<derek> if you truly want to help debian its good to use sarge
<LuftHans> it works great for me
<derek> if you need newer stuff than woody... you may as well use sid
<derek> as at least then you can get stuff fixed quickly
<LuftHans> if it's preferable to use sid over sarge then debian should give up creating dists
<derek> it depends on what you need
<derek> if you want to TEST the next stable distribution you should using sarge
<derek> if you want state of art packaging and are willing to suffer some minor oddities use sid
<derek> if you want stable stuff with some newer popular pacakges use Woody with backported apt lines
<derek> to me sarge is useless as an enduser distribution unless you are interested in helping prepare for the next stable release of debian
<LuftHans> well, I forget, X is borked in all 3 :(
<derek> i.e. it has a purpose, but not to the general end user
<derek> i see about the same amount of "oddities" in sarge as in sid
<derek> only they get fixed quicker in sid
<derek> and i get more current pacakging in sid
<derek> so i cant justify using sarge
<derek> imho
<LuftHans> they also get broken quicker and more often in sid
<LuftHans> bah, I need to get woody and a half working
<jcater> fwiw
<jcater> you'll need wx 2.4
<jcater> which is not in woody
<jcater> so if you go woody, you'
<jcater> re gonna have to bastardize it 
<LuftHans> but it is in sarge :)
<LuftHans> preferences and -t makes it pretty easy, though
<LuftHans> BTW, https://www.LuftHans.com/unix/, see cafod ( Care and Feeding of debian )
Action: LuftHans needs to update that.
<derek> jcater: i thought you put up a woody package for 2.4?
<jcater> I did
<jcater> just be aware
<derek> so no big deal
<jcater> you can't go plain woody
<derek> im not worried about that
<jcater> ok
<jcater> then ignore me
<derek> i want to START with plain woody :)
<jcater> :)
<derek> ok...
<derek> using gnue-sb contact manager to compile list for attendees
<derek> wish me luck
<derek> hey found a bug in forms
<derek> will play more before i report it though
<LuftHans> derek: I'll work on getting a box up for you tomorrow
<derek> second bug found
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<derek> appears file|close doesn't work
<derek> but the close button does
<jcater> yeah, I noticed that last night :(
<jcater> are you running the released versions?
<derek> definitely file|close doesnt work
<derek> but have another bug i think too
<derek> yeah 0.5.1
<jcater> good
<derek> wx UI driver
<derek> you told me to avoid cvs ;)
<derek> j/k
<jcater> because I somehow fucked up cvs's designer yesterday
<jcater> even though I branched
<jcater> so I'm glad you didn't listen :)
<derek> another oddity
<derek> when using forms with entry widget = multiple rows
<derek> you can't click into the next row
<derek> while this isnt murder for me (i use keyboard 90% of the time)
<derek> it will kill normal users that have mouse fetishes
<derek> it kills the accountant in me because enter doesnt go to next line either :)
<derek> it works like a "tab"
<derek> im used to financial packages etc where tab goes to next column and enter goes to next row
<jamest> click into next row?
<jamest> with the mouse?
<jamest> that works for me
<derek> cant click into the next row
<jcater> yeah, I've noticed this too
<jcater> jamest: can't click into a new record
<jcater> not the next record
<derek> let me try again
<jcater> if you query a multi-row table
<derek> but basically you have to "create" a row
<jcater> notice the line under the last record is greyed out
<derek> before you can click into it
<jcater> which means you can't click into it
<derek> right
<jcater> you have to click into the last full row
<jcater> and down arrow
<derek> right
<derek> if the rows have data, you can click into them
<jcater> this was one of those "it needs to tbe fixed... but we also need a release soon" bugs
<derek> i think jcater understands what im after...
<derek> i would classify it as "cosmetic"
<derek> so to speak
<derek> it likely has always worked like this
<jcater> I think it was actually introduced in 0.5.0
<derek> grr big trouble little china
<derek> DB000:     message = event._form.changeFocus(newEntry)
<derek> DB000:   File "/usr/local/gnue/lib/python/gnue/forms/GFForm.py", line 294, in changeFocus
<derek> DB000:     val = self._currentEntry.getValue()
<derek> DB000: AttributeError: GFButton instance has no attribute 'getValue'
Action: derek goe sto do some research
<derek> hmmm
<derek> i can figure a way to not make that happen, but looks like a bug OR im using an outdated function
<derek> also looks like one of the trigger types is obsolete or broken (but will report later) 
<derek> too many bugs..... i get lynched :)
<jcater> true dat
<jcater> I'm glad we see eye to eye
<jcater> :)
<derek> hans.....
<derek> if you want RCS, postgres, and good luvin (debian)
<derek> for free let me know
<derek> i will put you on freeloader
<derek> or we can put you on ash (gnuenterprises servers)
<derek> for azoto
<derek> button gray out stuff broken
<derek> can't insert new records... after second querying
<derek> rofl...
<derek> just noticed on the Navigation Menu it say "next entry" ------ return
<derek> jcater/jamest you wnat me to wait until you around and submit bugs to irc channel?
<derek> want me to submit them to dcl
<derek> or want me to email devel list
<derek> or.... you want me to fix them....
Action: derek notes that last threat should produce action ;)
<jcater> are those the only options?
Action: jcater may be around later tonight
<jcater> I'm painting right now
<ajmitch> he could find some more bugs instead...
<jcater> gack!
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<chillywilly> heheh
Action: chillywilly watches the Packers
<LuftHans> derek: you OK with giving shell access to some of the unwashed masses?
Action: LuftHans wants to make it easy for people to be on the 'web team', but maybe have limited approval mgrs
<LuftHans> derek: UML setup would be great
<derek> LuftHans: were you going to workshop
<derek> LuftHans: UML sucksass (but i wont argue about it now too busy)
<derek> we can give shell access (just not to the world)
<LuftHans> derek: I sent you email to reserve a position as soon as I knew about it
Action: derek sees little need for most people to have shell access
<LuftHans> I believe I also mentioned it in here :)
<derek> i would argue heavliy that we make it CVS based or dyanmic (yuck)
<derek> i.e. people don't scp/ftp files
<derek> they check them into cvs
<derek> or they go to a webpage and enter content and press ok
<LuftHans> derek: I'm even planning on getting up early for it :)
<LuftHans> actually, that's true, they need cvs access, not shell access
<LuftHans> I need shell access and a couple other people, but that can be limited to a few people
<LuftHans> as I say, I'd prefer to allow many people to submit changes, but limit the number of people who can release them to the live site
<LuftHans> maybe relax that for some portions of the site
<LuftHans> don't need UML if we're limiting access to the box
<derek> looks like i have 17 people signed up 
<derek> LuftHans: i think we can give a few people shell accounts if necessary
<derek> it's up to you
<derek> all along i have wanted to stay out of it for
<derek> but i want to make sure you have the tools you need
<LuftHans> derek: for me and for a couple of people I can dump stuff on :)
<LuftHans> your box is in a real data center with redundant Net connections and backups and everything, right?
<derek> well a 40million company that does all business via EDI relies on it
<derek> i'm not going to say 99.999% up time
<derek> but it aint no friggin DSL connection
<derek> it has backups
<derek> UPS power supplies etc
<derek> but its not a banks data center
<LuftHans> derek: well there are plenty of high dollar companies that have depended on m$, enron, anderson, worldcom, Ohio Power, ...  :)
<derek> yes
<derek> i want to make it clear down time is possible, but its pretty reliable
<LuftHans> it should be better than Nick's house :)
<LuftHans> If you have multiple vendors supplying the connections to the Net and UPS that should be good
<derek> i would probably rate it at about 98% uptime
<LuftHans> w/o multiple Net connections it still might be OK, but I'll leave room for others to bitch
<derek> generally the problems are extended power outages (old building, we moved to BRAND NEW BUILT building)
<derek> or darn Telecom provider screw ups (generally when we switched to some new providers and upgraded some lines)
<derek> oh report master
<derek> do you live today?
Action: derek lays a fresh dozen of KK on the table
<derek> opens the lid
<derek> puts a fan in behind them... points it at jcater
<derek> turns on high
<derek> sits down and waits.......
<derek> jcater: message me when you get back, been long time since i dorked with reports have a few questions
<derek> think im wanting to do a mail merge and shove out via email
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--- Sun Aug 24 2003