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<btami> good morning
<icltlfatppl> mornin'
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<icltlfatppl> hey, this channel is getting kind of busy.
<icltlfatppl> Has anyone here used sql-ledger?
<SachaS> icltfatppl no sql-ledger here.
<icltlfatppl> It would be nice to integrate it with gnue.
<SachaS> are you using sql-ledger?
<icltlfatppl> yes, for a couple companies.
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<SachaS> icltlfatppl is an accountant company using sql-ledger for companies or the individual companies sql-ledger?
<icltlfatppl> The individual companies.  I manage three companies right now, and for one the bookkeeper moved to france, so I wanted to keep her and I set her up with sql-ledger.
<icltlfatppl> The second company I just started, and I wanted to go with something free that I understood and was web based.
<icltlfatppl> It's very handy.
<SachaS> interesting.
<icltlfatppl> I see it the same way I see RT or Squirrelmail.  No reason it shouldn't integrate with GNUe.
<icltlfatppl> Those apps aren't exactly three teir, unfortunately.  It's possible to make a web app three tier, but you have to seperate code for generating the web interface from decision making code.
<icltlfatppl> There is a protocol for the data tier, always a protocol for that.
<icltlfatppl> But server side interface scripting gets used for logic.
<icltlfatppl> That makes it hard to re-use these web apps.
<icltlfatppl> One alternative is to graft a control protocol onto them, if they don't offer it already
<icltlfatppl> Actually, it's the only practical alternative in most cases.
<icltlfatppl> Case in point is Interchange.  No way anyone is going to plug serious logic underneath that beast.
<icltlfatppl> But they have a SOAP interface that just might work.
<icltlfatppl> There should be a law.
<icltlfatppl> Requiring people developing killer web apps to either stick to three teir network design and put a protocol in between their interfaces and their logic, or design with a comprehensive API available via a commodity protocol (distant second best).
<icltlfatppl> Lets say I want to develop a CRM application.  I decide to go with the old school crowd an look at the interfaces to the customer.
<icltlfatppl> I've got apps for phone/call center, email, im, personal information management, etc. that can at least interface to the data tier. 
<icltlfatppl> What happens when I want to throw my gnue logic tier in there?
<icltlfatppl> O.K. I'll tell you.
<icltlfatppl> I have to look at these presentation level apps (and they cover a lot more than presentation, but from my CRM view they don't) and stick something in between them and the data tier.
<SachaS> 2 tier gnue apps are out there. 3 tier not sure if any productive. ->gnue application server still lot of work in progress (siesel, reinhard main developers for app server)
<icltlfatppl> How about interfaces to other applications?
<icltlfatppl> Something equivalent to interfacing a GNUe sales app to SQL-Ledger. 
<SachaS> gnue forms (presentaion layer) likes to talk to databases. not sure if non-databases are supported yet.
<SachaS> jamest is gnue-common man
<icltlfatppl> SachaS: Sorry to ramble so much, but I've got a weak grasp of gnue architechture.
<icltlfatppl> I have been following it, but haven't checked the architecture diagram for years.
<SachaS> i am not a gnue developer so stay suspicious about my comments :)
<icltlfatppl> Let's agree to be co-backseat drivers!
<SachaS> gnue-common is about communication eg forms - database
<SachaS> gnue-forms presentation of forms - user input output
<icltlfatppl> Well, what if I want to write a non-form object, something that is just a logic method, and it will need to swap out depending on changes in data.
<icltlfatppl> Take the CRM example
<icltlfatppl> I have an object that monitors the inbound traffic to my company, and based on algorithm x, it prioritizes it.
<icltlfatppl> This happens all the time in call centers.
<SachaS> gnue-report creating reports (pdf etc)
<SachaS> ok
<icltlfatppl> A common algorithm might be to bring the customers worth the most money to the front of a call center queue or support queue
<icltlfatppl> A different algorithm might get applied, or a more complex one, based on business changes.
<icltlfatppl> For instance, most of the phone companies actually make people who are "willing" to wait on hold, or have a history of waiting long periods, wait longer.
<icltlfatppl> Sucks, doesn't it.
<icltlfatppl> Anyway, there are lots of examples of queue prioritization, that's just one business object. 
<dcmwai> most of the phone companies???
<icltlfatppl> SBC, AT&T, et al.
<dcmwai> bad guy :(
<icltlfatppl> So my architecture question is, where does a business logic object fit into gnue?
<SachaS> business logic objects
<SachaS> currently there is logic in the form (presentation)
<SachaS> when application server is ready there can be business logic objects in the appserver
<SachaS> use this info with cautious
<SachaS> :)
<SachaS> guess these are central questions, so not sure what the gnue-developers have decided on
<icltlfatppl> Components like app server usually get ignored.  
<icltlfatppl> That's how things get done quickly.
<icltlfatppl> Still, there ought to be a law.
<icltlfatppl> It's quite painful trying to integrate an open source business environment built from 2-tier apps.
<reinhard> SachaS: that's 100% correct what you say
<SachaS> thanks reinahrd.
<SachaS> there you go icltlfatppl. reinhard is into application server
<icltlfatppl> Glad to make your acquaintances.
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<thierry> hi all
<icltlfatppl> reinhard: I think it would be worthwhile to discuss appserver business objects from the perspective of practical integration.  
<reinhard> yes probably
<reinhard> however I'm busy like hell at the moment :(
<reinhard> will you be here again later?
<reinhard> maybe tomorrow
<icltlfatppl> I'm in and out all the time.  I usually check in here at least once a day.
<reinhard> cool
<SachaS> off for dinner
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<SachaS> www.achievo.org a project management tool (web based) aming to get erp
<icltlfatppl> xrms is an sql-ledger based crm tool, just announced on the sql-ledger list, single guy developing it, search sourceforge, demo looks good.
<SachaS> xrms. checking itxrms.sourceforge.net
<SachaS> looks nice
<SachaS> icltlfatpp xrms ontop of sql-ledger, or xrms using sql-ledger as main accounting software
<SachaS> and xrms AND sql-ledger using same database; same "customer" table
<SachaS> and xrms AND sql-ledger using same database; same "customer" table ? (question)
<SachaS> in xrms company polymer electronics has phone number in accounting polymer electronics has no phone number :(
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<dsmith> Vegan Donuts?  Hmm.  Anyone ever have any *meat* donuts?
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<chillywilly> dsmith: vegan == no animal by-products at all
<chillywilly> dsmith: donuts are cooked in animal fat
<chillywilly> not to mention they contain other things in the batter
<chillywilly> milk, eggs, etc.
<chillywilly> all stuff that vegans don't eat
<SachaS> hi jcater. would it be easy for you to build the pysablot against python 2.3 debian .deb file ?
<SachaS> please :)
<chillywilly> did you bring donuts?
<dsmith> chillywilly: Thanks for clearing that up.
<thierry> hi chillywilly
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<jamest> cvs working?
Action: Vee is syncing right now
<Vee> jamest, the code or the server? ;)
<jamest> someone down me cvs is down
<jamest> i'm not seeing it
<Vee> server appears to be functioning
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<SachaZzz> night all
<Vee> sweet dreams SachaZzz
<SachaZzz> ta
<SachaZzz> ;)
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<Vee> that dualing banjo tidbit in DWN is funny
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<reinhard> on technotes
<reinhard> I've just committed (in gnue-appserver/doc/technotes)
<reinhard> a makefile that runs gnue-common/utils/create-technote-index.py
<reinhard> and I've deleted index.txt and index.html from cvs as I believe that generated files don't belong in CVS
<reinhard> jamest/jcater if you agree with me I'd propose you do the same in forms, common etc.
<jcater> I'm indifferent
<reinhard> so at least you don't beat me for doing it in appserver :)
<jamest> fine w/ me
<jamest> and I'd never beat you
<jamest> i save that for the uzahs
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<chillywilly> jamest: hehe
<chillywilly> reinhard: you're a commtin' fewl today
<chillywilly> (that's just my way of saying there's a lot of commits it's not an opinion on your technote thing)
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<jcater> did someone say something?
Action: jcater looks around
<chillywilly> nope
<chillywilly> it was your stomach growling
<chillywilly> it says "krispy kremes!"
<jbailey> uaz?
<jbailey> err.
<jbailey> uzah?
<jbailey> What's an uzah/
<Vee> derek!
<jbailey> I apparently can't type at the moment.
<jbailey> *sigh*
<Vee> er I mean, I think it's slang for "user"
<jcater> a uzah is someone standing at the business end of an uzie (sp?)
<jcater> aka, someone who's ticked off their sysadmin
<dsmith> That would be a "local user" or "luser" ?
<chillywilly> uzah a.k.a. luser
<wendall911> jamest: what's the status on the release of the inventory forms? Able to convince them ;)
<jbailey> derek: Wake up.
<jbailey> derek: I have questions for you. =)
Action: chillywilly smacks derek about with a smelly trout
<jbailey> Is it a *vegan* trout?
<chillywilly> damn I am smmmoooooove
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<chillywilly> my rhymes are flowin'
<chillywilly> there ain't no slowin'
<chillywilly> sheeeeeit
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<chillywilly> wb splitters
<chillywilly> ;P
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<jcater> you mean, "fellow splitters" ??
<chillywilly> yea I know both servers disconnected
<chillywilly> geez, do we have to get all technical ;)
<chillywilly> form my point of view those guys split from me ;)
<chillywilly> therefore they are the splitters
<chillywilly> it's all relative damnit
<jcater> you're just jealous!
<jcater> of what, I'm not sure
<chillywilly> :(
<jamest> goat envy
Action: jbailey bleets.
<chillywilly> I am jealous that you have such a jelly roll
<chillywilly> and you all are jealous of my m4d r4pp3r sk1llz
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<chillywilly> heheh
<chillywilly> crap almost time to get scotty for school
<chillywilly> from
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> brb
<reinhard> wendall911: I don't know about the inventory form
<reinhard> I'm the appserver guy
<reinhard> however IIRC you had some questions about appserver, too?
<jbailey> so how is appserver going, anyway? =)
<reinhard> goo
[15:56] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<reinhard> arrrrgggggghhhh
<reinhard> good
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> actually only documentation fixes before we will do next release
<jbailey> Is there enough there to be worth packaging yet?
<reinhard> well
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<reinhard> in any case i would want to get it into sarge before it's released
<reinhard> no matter what we have by then
<reinhard> so maybe it'd be best to package it now
<jbailey> 'kay.
<reinhard> and for the next releases (if there are any before sarge freeze)
<reinhard> the packaging will be not much work
<jbailey> Does it have the same obnoxious distutils issues that all the rest of gnue has? =)
<reinhard> (if i understand debian's packaging procedure correctly)
<reinhard> what are those issues?
<reinhard> and what would i have to do to fix them?
<jbailey> gnue-common's setup ignores --prefix and gives a traceback on -no-compile
<reinhard> i can make sure that this won't happen before i release
<reinhard> (if i remember it)
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> I made a note so I _will_ remember :)
<jbailey> Luvly.
<reinhard> how goes the glibc war?
<reinhard> or
<reinhard> is that a question i shouldn't ask?
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<chillywilly> back
<chillywilly> kinda hot outside
<jbailey> glibc war is fine.  Some chance we may have solved the problems.  Have to verify though.
<chillywilly> what problems?
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<reinhard> jbailey: cool
<reinhard> jbailey: i guess getting glibc into sarge would pull a lot of other packages with it
<jbailey> Yes, very much so.
<reinhard> as (my understanding) a lot of packages are not in sarge only because they depend on glibc
<reinhard> congrats
<ajmitch> hi
<reinhard> hi ajmitch
<reinhard> jbailey: just a minor question
<reinhard> on debian
<chillywilly> hello ajmitchie
<reinhard> version numbers like gnue-appserver 0.0.4pre1 are evil, right?
<jbailey> I run a bunch of systems on testing it'll be good for me.
<ajmitch> 0.0.4pre1 is 'newer' than 0.0.4
<reinhard> ok then i got it right
<chillywilly> do they ever package preX kernels?
<jbailey> chillywilly: Yes.  I'm running 2.6.0test4 prepackaged.
<chillywilly> ok, but is that version going to be greater thean 2.6.0 proper?
<chillywilly> what do they do about that?
<chillywilly> 'newer'
<jbailey> Dunno.
<jbailey> Oh wait, I know the answer to this.
<jbailey> It doesn't matter for them, because each new version is a new package.
<chillywilly> ok
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<wendall911> anybody here that can point me to a Demo project site, or a working site that has a sample of GNUe? (I understand that is alot to ask for from a set of tools ;) )
<jcater> GNUe isn't primarily web based
<jcater> so that'd be hard to do a demo site for
<chillywilly> jan has jsforms running somewhere
<chillywilly> I don't recall where though ;)
<jcater> but that's not really indicative of the tools
<jcater> though neat
<chillywilly> but it is a forms client
<chillywilly> and uses xmlrpc to talk to appserver
<wendall911> yeah, I assumed that, I have explained this to my client...I think they understand...I'm mapping some models for them ;)
<chillywilly> which talks to the rest of gnue
<wendall911> I told them it was like selecting a programming language and wanting to see a sample of C++ and all the api being used
<chillywilly> all I have to say is that I think (as much as some people disagree) a web client is needed for success...just look at all the Java-based j2ee-like web app servers
<chillywilly> the open source/free ones are pretty prevalent as well as BEA's appserver thingy
<jcater> I think a web client is needed
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> but I differ on the needed for success part
<wendall911> chillywilly: I'm looking at it this way: web interface as an optional way to interact with the system....that way, anybody can access the data, even if it doesn't have drag and drop capabilities and such
<chillywilly> well the appserver speaks xmlrpc so you could craft a customer client easily if you needed to so I suppose an html UI forms plugin isn
<chillywilly> isn't necessary
<wendall911> chillywilly: agreed
<chillywilly> s/customer/custom/
<chillywilly> my brain always translates custom to customer
<chillywilly> bah
<wendall911> I am taking a serious look at integrating the use of a CMS with GNUe as a part of my project, think it would be very useful
<wendall911> of course as a dev for phpWebSite, I have an obvious candidate
<chillywilly> php :)
<jcater> chillywilly: I can relate
<jcater> my brain always translates
<jcater> user to "get the fsck out of my office"
<jcater> bad habit, I guess
<chillywilly> haha
Action: jbailey imagines a user sitting down and starting a filesystem check.
Action: LuftHans has been seeing lots of jbailey today.
<jbailey> CMS?  What's that?
<LuftHans> chevy modded suburban
<jbailey> Ah lovely.
<jbailey> That way when it crashes, it *really* crashes? =)
<LuftHans> cool, the new libc seems to be generating all the locales...
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<alandd> LuftHans: you live here still?
Action: alandd says not that you live here but that you are live here right now.  Doh!
<LuftHans> alandd: just heading out to Stammtisch
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<alandd> I thought so.  Do you have the press release yet?  I need to get a web page up.
<alandd> should I come by and help you with it?
<LuftHans> alandd: use the last version, it's almost ready
<LuftHans> post suggestions to the list, I'll work on them tonight and tomorrow
<alandd> OK.  I'll not come by stammtisch tonight.  I'll see about getting the site updated.
<LuftHans> I think George will be at Stammtisch tonight, so I'll go over it with him as well
<alandd> OK. cool.  I gotta go, too.
<LuftHans> feel free to come by and thanks for working on the site
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--- Wed Sep 17 2003