jamest (~jamest@adsl-64-216-106-144.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) left irc: "Client exiting"
<dneighbo> for jbailey: Vegetarian: Indian word for lousy hunter.
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> hi dneighbo 
<dneighbo> hey
Action: dneighbo runs off to bed... been getting up too early in the morning lately
<chillywilly> yea I should go to bed soon
<chillywilly> but I am too wired
<chillywilly> been drinking too much coffee
<chillywilly> which seems to do the trick a hell of a lot better than soda
<chillywilly> too well
<Vee2d2> grave bugs of ssh (1:3.6.1p2-6 -> 1:3.6.1p2-7) <open>
<Vee2d2>  #211305 - sshd: -7 is royally hosed
<Vee2d2> heh
<Vee2d2> nice description
<chillywilly> I installed it anyway
Action: chillywilly checks out gnue
<chillywilly> man we need a gnue-all alias module
<Vee2d2> yea
<chillywilly> so I doon't have to pull them all separately
<Vee2d2> I understand the seperation.. but I think for the most part people, today, want to get everything
<chillywilly> Vee2d2: everything used to be in one module
<chillywilly> that was kinda sucky
<chillywilly> I like the way it is now
<chillywilly> but we just need a convenience module that includes all the others
<chillywilly> :)
<Vee2d2> I'm agreeing with you that there needs to be a gnue mechanism to snag it all, simply
<chillywilly> OK
<Vee2d2> wether it's a phantom module, or a script.. sompn.. 
<chillywilly> sorry I am on that liquid crack known as coffeee
<chillywilly> ;P
<Vee2d2> I coulda used some.. been 12+ hrs since my last fix
<Vee2d2> think I'm heading to bed
<chillywilly> well I posted twice to our LUG list and haven't seen those yet either
<chillywilly> myabe my mail is slow or somethin'
<alandd> Python is a comiled language?  Just starting to learn about it.
reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
<alandd> I did find a minihowto for python on the ipaq with GTK  :^)  handhelds.org is a great resource.
<alandd> I have not done the install of it yet.  I'm doing a different project tonight.
<chillywilly> excuses ;)
<chillywilly> Python is interpreted
<chillywilly> loosely typed
<chillywilly> and object-oriented
<alandd> is it compressable to be uncompressed at runtime?  I am a bit worried about space on the ipaq.
<alandd> imagining here.  haven't tried it yet.
<alandd> I could put the pythod source in cramfs to help it fit.  hmmm...  I am thinking too far ahead, I think.
<alandd> Augh!  My work app just crashed!
<alandd> Um... That looks bad in this here log.  For the record, GNUe was NOT the app that crashed.  I am editing schematics for a totally different project.  It was the schematic editor that crashed.
Action: alandd I hate working in windows!
Nick change: SachaS -> Sacha_away
wendall911 (~wendallc@198.31.172.218) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
alandd (~alandd@h-66-167-43-70.PHNDAZ91.covad.net) left irc: "Client exiting"
wendall911 (~wendallc@198.31.172.218) joined #gnuenterprise.
wendall911 (~wendallc@198.31.172.218) left #gnuenterprise.
Nick change: Sacha_away -> SachaS
SachaS_ (~Sacha@dialup-196-239.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise.
SachaS_ (~Sacha@dialup-196-239.wasp.net.au) left #gnuenterprise ("Client exiting").
ajmitch__ (~ajmitch@wlg1-port4.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) joined #gnuenterprise.
ajmitch (~ajmitch@wlg1-port15.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
Nick change: ajmitch__ -> ajmitch
ville (~ville@as13-5-6.ld.bonet.se) left irc: "using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.2.4"
ville (~ville@as13-5-6.ld.bonet.se) joined #gnuenterprise.
<SachaS> Time:  5:00 PM ET   ... is ET Eastern Time ? as United States Eastern Time ?
<ajmitch> hmm?
<ajmitch> where'd you see that?
<SachaS> http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=RHAT&script=1010&item_id=784624
<SachaS> red hats earnins conference tomorrow
dimas_ (~dimas@195.218.177.46) joined #gnuenterprise.
<ajmitch> probably us eastern time 
Action: ajmitch still trying to load the page
Nick change: SachaS -> SachaDinner
gypsymauro (~colorioma@host103-11.pool21757.interbusiness.it) joined #gnuenterprise.
<gypsymauro> hello:)
dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.169.225) left irc: "Client exiting"
dimas (~dimas@195.218.177.46) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
<SachaDinner> ciao italiano
Nick change: SachaDinner -> SachaS
Nick change: SachaS -> SachaSoccer
Arturas (~arturas@gsk.vtu.lt) joined #gnuenterprise.
<Arturas> Hello
ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<gypsymauro> ciao SachaSoccer !:)
<gypsymauro> any other italians here?
<gypsymauro> I'm planning to develop an open source ERP solution, is gnuenterprise ready for that?
Nick change: SachaSoccer -> SachaS
<reinhard> gypsymauro: GNUe _is_ a project for a free ERP solution
<reinhard> so probably the easiest way for you to go is to join our efforts
<Vee> welcome aboard, gypsymauro! ;)
<gypsymauro> good
<gypsymauro> but..
<gypsymauro> :)
<gypsymauro> what can I do with it?
<reinhard> what we now have is
<reinhard> 1. excellent tools for building database applications and
<reinhard> 2. a sub-project called gnue-sb to create a small business ERP system using those tools in 2-tier mode
<reinhard> as to 2-tier mode
<reinhard> GNUe will have an application server managing the business logic
<reinhard> however it is not quite ready for prime time (although we've made much progress in the last weeks)
<reinhard> so currently all "real" GNUe applications run in 2-tier mode
<reinhard> which means the front end (form, report) directly accesses the database
Arturas (~arturas@gsk.vtu.lt) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
<gypsymauro> two tier?
<gypsymauro> I was reading about a three tier model
lxf (~agus_tea@202.73.120.39) joined #gnuenterprise.
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> that's the "big" model using appserve
<reinhard> appserver
<reinhard> however the developers building the front end tier were much faster than the developers building the middle tier
<reinhard> and people started to use the front end tier tools in 2-tier mode
<reinhard> our goal is still the 3-tier solution
<reinhard> but with 2-tier you can have working apps ready for real life _now_
jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise.
<gypsymauro> reinhard: that's good so where I can start from?
<chillywilly> how do you guys normally add gnue-common to the python path if you install it?
<gypsymauro> reinhard: and.. there is some python/zope link?:) or is everything (web related) based on php?
<chillywilly> set PYTHONPATH?
<gypsymauro> python?!
<gypsymauro> yahooooooo
<reinhard> gypsymauro: you didn't notice?
<chillywilly> sys.path.append('/usr/local/gnue/BLAH')
<chillywilly> ?
<reinhard> 95% of our code is python
<gypsymauro> wowowowow
<gypsymauro> that's great:)
<reinhard> the rest is some installation shell scripts and some makefiles ;-)
<chillywilly> I suppose I can just set the environment variable
<gypsymauro> no I just checked the site and I saw the irc channel, I searched debian packages but i fuond just something writtein in php dcl?
<reinhard> chillywilly: sorry but i never actually installed something
<reinhard> i always run from cvs :)
<gypsymauro> (dcl)
Action: chillywilly has some code he's writing that uses gnue common so I want to install it
<reinhard> yes dcl is not a _real_ gnue application
<jamest> chillywilly: it's done in the tool scripts
<jamest> if writing a custom app I do this at the beging
<chillywilly> jamest: but I don't want to use any tools but use code from gnue common ;
<chillywilly> go ahead :)
<reinhard> gypsymauro: besides the project for the tools and the project for the ERP
<gypsymauro> there is nothing for debian? I need to downlaod everything from cvs?
<reinhard> gypsymauro: gnue is also an "umbrella" for some other free business software projects
<chillywilly> gypsymauro: we have debian packages
<reinhard> like dcl or bayonne
<jamest> #
<jamest> # Setup the environment to know where gnue is installed
<jamest> #
<jamest> import sys,os
<reinhard> gypsymauro: to be precise
<jamest> sys.path.append('/usr/local/gnue/lib/python')
<jamest> os.environ['INSTALL_LIB']='/usr/local/gnue/lib/python'
<jamest> os.environ['INSTALL_PREFIX']='/usr/local/gnue'
<reinhard> we have some quite obsolete debian packages
<jamest> which sucks
<chillywilly> gypsymauro: the ones for the latest release are being worked on right now
<chillywilly> heheh
<reinhard> and our debian master is working on current ones
<gypsymauro> chillywilly: are you the mantainer?
<reinhard> yes what chilly said
<reinhard> he just types faster than me :)
<chillywilly> programatically set the env variables
<jamest> one of these years we'll hack common's setup.py so that it puts something like
<jamest> import gnuesys
<jamest> available to a std python install
<gypsymauro> so what you suggest to me to do for try gnue?
<gypsymauro> on debian I mean
<chillywilly> gypsymauro: nope, jbailey is the debian packager guy
<jamest> gypsymauro: you a developers?
<reinhard> gypsymauro: currently, i'd propose cvs
<reinhard> or install the source packages from release
<gypsymauro> jamest: yes
<jamest> then I'd push cvs
<chillywilly> can't I just add /usr/local/gnue/lib/python to PYTHONPATH?
<gypsymauro> the cvs is alvays working?
<gypsymauro> always
<jamest> it's working most the time
<jamest> i use cvs in production
<reinhard> most of the time means > 50%
<reinhard> j/k
<jamest> a few of us depend upon cvs working
<jcater> chillywilly: I run all my gnue-based python code with ~/bin/gcvs instead of /usr/bin/python
<jcater> well, I guess that doesn't help w/an official install
<jcater> but we need that too 
<chillywilly> gotta run
<reinhard> gypsymauro: we generally suck at making releases
<chillywilly> ok
<jamest> that's not to say cvs doesn't go down for periods of time
<reinhard> so we have to keep CVS working because our releases are obsolete most of the time :)
<jamest> but we usually know it's coming
<jamest> at let others know
<reinhard> gypsymauro: however 0.5.1 should be quite current
<chillywilly> back, why doesn't gnue-common install into site-packages anyway? ;)
<gypsymauro> reinhard: well I've installed common and forms, can i see an example? there is something done?
<chillywilly> maybe I should learn distutils crap
<reinhard> gypsymauro: what db do you use?
<gypsymauro> reinhard:  postgres if I can:) well I installed designer too but I got errors on path :) I think i need to read something sorry:)
<reinhard> did you install from tarball or from cvs?
<chillywilly> hmmm, doesn't distutils support --prefix?
<chillywilly> according to soem docs it does
<gypsymauro> from tarbal, and I saw that it asks for wxpython
<chillywilly> so why was mr. jeffy whining about it not ;)
<gypsymauro> lol
<gypsymauro> 'cause I've wxpython for python 22.3 not for 2.2:(
<jamest> jesus chilly, we started the gnue thing so long ago I don't recall why
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> no big deal
<jcater> it originally installed into site-packages, but I remember lots of issues w/that
<jcater> now I can't remember what
<gypsymauro> oh now i got...:) well i've an error like images_dir = GConfig.getInstalledBase('forms_images','common_images') + '/'
<dneighbo> site-packages was evil
<gypsymauro> TypeError: unsupported operand types for +: 'NoneType' and 'str'
<chillywilly> I would think you'd install there for production
<dneighbo> wrong python
<dneighbo> gypsymauro: i think you probalby are using python 1.5.2
<gypsymauro> lol
<gypsymauro> nope
<gypsymauro> 2.2
<gypsymauro> or 2.3
<dneighbo> are you SURE
<chillywilly> python -V
Action: dneighbo notes that 99% of the time when people say this they have 1.5.2 installed and dont know it
<gypsymauro> but I think GConfig.getInstalledBase return something wrong
<jcater> hmmm
<dneighbo> type python<tab> and paste output here
<jcater> how are you running the code?
<gypsymauro>  python -V
<gypsymauro> Python 2.3+
<gypsymauro> or python2.2
<gypsymauro> python2.2 Designer.py ?:)
<jcater> err, ok
<jcater> this cvs or install?
<gypsymauro> tarball on debian
<dneighbo> why
<dneighbo> do
<jcater> as you need to run either gnue-designer (install) or gfdes (cvs)
<dneighbo> ./setup.py install in the designer directory
<jcater> as those set a lot of installation-specific environment variables
<dneighbo> to install so you can use gnue-designer
<dneighbo> OR
<gypsymauro> dneighbo: i done that
<dneighbo> run cvs-setup.py
<dneighbo> gypsymauro: then try gnue-designer
<gypsymauro> oh!
<dneighbo> we need our deb packages fixed asap
<gypsymauro> you are too much ahead:)
<gypsymauro> tanx I was just thinking there was not a caller
lxf (~agus_tea@202.73.120.39) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
<gypsymauro> hem there is a getting started? I want to try to build a "hello word" application:)
<reinhard> dneighbo/jcater thanks for continuing to help gypsymauro while i was not looking
<reinhard> it's hard sometimes to keep an eye on IRC while you are at work :(
<dneighbo> do you have a database?
<dneighbo> does it have data?
<dneighbo> if so you can build much more than a hello world application (in a shorter amount of time)
mouns (mouns@kali.mouns.org) joined #gnuenterprise.
<reinhard> what is correct:
<reinhard> note that not all features are yet implemented
<reinhard> note that not all features are already implemented
<reinhard> ?
<jcater>  note that not all features are implemented
<reinhard> lol
ajmitch (~ajmitch@wlg1-port4.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) got netsplit.
ajmitch (~ajmitch@wlg1-port4.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise.
lupo__ (lupo@pD95422B8.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
Action: dneighbo runs away to work..... well drives actually
dimas_ (~dimas@195.218.177.46) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
jbailey (~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
ville (~ville@as13-5-6.ld.bonet.se) left irc: "using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.2.4"
<jbailey> dneighbo: There?
<dneighbo> here
Nick change: dneighbo -> derek
<gypsymauro> hey gnue-designer is very nice!
<gypsymauro> great work:)
<derek> i take it you got it working?
<gypsymauro> of course:)
<gypsymauro> I'm playing with it
<gypsymauro> just I can't got my form "running":) but probably i made some mistake
<Vee> bash.org is such a great resource
<Vee> <malkygoat> i've donated 1000hours of CPU time to SETI
<Vee> <ozzmosis> malkygoat: you know in about 20 years time the alien ships will land here on Earth and demand to know why we've been DOSing their alien network 20 light years away with random packets
Action: derek runs away for real now....
Action: Vee chases after derek
Nick change: SachaS -> SachaZzz
<jamest> gypsymauro: you can't run the form from designer
<jamest> you'll have to use the gnue-forms client (gfcvs if running from setup-cvs.py install)
lupo__ (lupo@pD95422B8.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection
lupo__ (lupo@pD9E68A4A.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<gypsymauro> jamest: oh I just saw the button on the toolbar
wendall911 (~wendallc@198.31.172.218) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jamest> that's broken
dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.213.193) joined #gnuenterprise.
<gypsymauro> well, which db are supported?
<gypsymauro> there is a support for freetds?
<jcater> what's that?
<chillywilly> never heard of it
<jamest> never heard of it
<chillywilly> junx
<chillywilly> jinx even'
<chillywilly> blah
<jcater> supported databases: postgres, mysql (somewhat), interbase, ingres, sap-db, oracle, sqlite, odbc, SQL Server (minimally tested), IBM DB2
<jcater> I might have missed a few
<jamest> look in gnue-common/src/datasources/drivers IIRC
<gypsymauro> freertds is thw way to connect to MS sqlserver
<gypsymauro> php uses it
<gypsymauro> gnome-db uses it
<jamest> it's fairly simple to add a new driver to gnue
<gypsymauro> www.freetds.org
<gypsymauro> I think I'll join the develop team:))) I love gnue!
<jamest>  /msg jcater do we tell him about the goat stuff now or later?
<gypsymauro> goat?
<jcater> does freetds have python bindings?
<gypsymauro> jcater: I dunno
<jamest> google for gnue goat
<jamest> we've got issues
<gypsymauro> I'll check it
<chillywilly> geez
<chillywilly> you could just leave the goat be...he'd catch on eventually
<gypsymauro> I didn't got it:) what's goat? I found some mails 
<chillywilly> it's an inside joke
<jcater> the goat is our (unofficial) mascott
<jcater> sometimes in not so nice ways
<jamest> he frolicks in the code
<jcater> any weird things you see in our code
<chillywilly> jamest refers to bugs as getting "mad goat raped"
<jcater> are the goat's fault
<jamest> or derek's
<jcater> true
<jcater> if you see:
<jcater> if sys.environ['LOGNAME'] in ('derek','dneighbo'):
<jcater>   <some strange looking segfaulting code>
<jcater>  
<jcater> then just ignore it
<jamest> ignore it
<gypsymauro> lol
<jcater> it doesn't apply to what you're working on
<Vee> ;)
<jamest> and if you have any users named derek
<jcater> fire them
<gypsymauro> I think it will be harder than what I thinked to work with you all;P
<jamest> don't let them run this stuff on systems you care about
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> you guys really shouldn't scare potential developers away
<chillywilly> ;)
Action: gypsymauro will sleep everynight in the jcater bed
<Vee> I'm sure that make jcater feel more comfortable
<Vee> dont forget the donuts and chicken strips
<gypsymauro> ehehe
<gypsymauro> I'll do this to protect him from GOAT
<gypsymauro> but I'll sleep behind his shoulders;P
<gypsymauro> there is soe work about i18n?
Action: chillywilly is now scared of gypsymauro 
<gypsymauro> ehehehe don't be scared chillywilly , I'll sleep with you too if you are;)
<gypsymauro> for what I saw I can't create a form without DB connection (just the hello world example)
<gypsymauro> is it true?
<jamest> you can roll one by hand
<jamest> and you can create datasource free forms
<gypsymauro> ok now I've to goo see you later:)
<jamest> like the helloworld2.gfd example
<jamest> but it's more painfull
<gypsymauro> see ya
gypsymauro (~colorioma@host103-11.pool21757.interbusiness.it) left irc: "leaving"
<jamest> the wizards and drag and drop make things fast
<jamest> l8r
<chillywilly> anyone here a B5 nut?
<chillywilly> Babylon 5
<chillywilly> brb
<Vee> I watched it
jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) left irc: Remote closed the connection
<Vee> then excalibur(?) until it was stopped or whatever
<chillywilly> hrrm, this isn't B5 but the one after that actually
<chillywilly> I was just wonder wtf those weird aliens in the bubbles chamber things are
jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jamest> for those debian users not on security
<chillywilly> it's the on where they're looking for the cure to the plague
<chillywilly> one
<jamest> a new set of ssh debs available today
<chillywilly> k
<Vee> chillywilly, right, no idea.. they either stopped airing that show or I stopped watching not very long after it began
<jamest> more buffer fun 
<chillywilly> Vee: it's on scifi channel all the time
Action: Vee has little tv time these days
<Vee> need to do the mythtv or pvr thing some day
<jamest> i've tried to watch tv
<chillywilly> personal video recorder?
<jamest> but i feel like todays shows would cause brain damage with prolonged exposure
<Vee> chillywilly, something to record shows for me so that in the event I have some tv time, I can choose what I want to watch
<chillywilly> yea, using a computer right?
<chillywilly> I need to get another shuttle for this exact purpose ;)
<chillywilly> I want a PC-TV/recorder ;P
<Vee> chillywilly, yea.. check out mythtv if you havent already mythtv.org IIRC
<chillywilly> googled for it as soon as you mentioned it
<havoc> tvtime is cool
<havoc> http://tvtime.sourceforge.net/
<havoc> it's just an app though
<jamest> wow
<jamest> mythtv looks neat
<Vee> just wish I had time/money to mess with it
<nickr> tvtime is pretty
<jamest> i just built the wife new box last night
<jamest> may now have something to do with the old one :)
<jamest> sigh, and I don't even like tv much anymore
<jamest> it just looks to geeky not to want
Action: Vee wants to buy/build a ddr pad and run pydance for the kids
<jamest> pydance?
<jamest> lol
Vee (~vin@cavok154.august.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
Vee (~vin@cavok154.august.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jbailey> If you do the pydance, do pies fall out of the sky?
<Vee2d2> snakes
<nickr> pie!
<jbailey> Snake pie!
<jcater> sounds like a py in the sky dream to me
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> I think python's math library should rename itself
<jcater> to PyPi
<Vee2d2> PyPiLongstockings?
<jcater> hmm, PyLot --> inventory tracking?
<jcater> QTPy --> QT-based python editor
<jcater> hehe
<jcater> I like that name
<jamest> the built in math lib?
<jamest> i'd prefer pyRandom
<jamest> if we're talking floats
<jcater> lol
<jamest> for those that don't follow
<jamest> type pythin
<jamest> er
<jamest> python
<jamest> at the prompt enter
<jamest> 20.06
<jamest> it's very imprecise IMHO
Action: jamest isn't used to seeing floats mangled quite that easily
ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jcater> that really bit me in the arse at my store
<jcater> w/GNUe POS
<nickr> what the hell? why does that happen?
<jamest> because python floats suck
<jamest> bad
<nickr> is it python's floats or C's?
<jamest> i don't recall C being quite this over the top
<reinhard> quick question
<reinhard> what is setupext for?
<jamest> it was an extension to distutils
<jamest> that some packager made 
<jamest> you'll find it imported in setup.py
<reinhard> from what i can tell it is _not_ imported in setup.py of appserver
<jamest> i was thinking at one time that the newer distutils made what it did obsolete
<jcater> I'm not so sure about the obsolete part
<jcater> would be nice though
<jamest> it was used in forms
<jamest> when common was started it migrated to there too
<chillywilly> I was looking at the setupext too
<reinhard> ok
<jamest> so I imagine that the appserver setup.py was just copied complete from one of those
<chillywilly> but don't know enough sbout distutils
<jamest> i'd love to see it go away
<reinhard> in any case it is not used in appserver
<reinhard> ok
<jamest> then you can remove it
<reinhard> i'll make it go away :)
<jamest> but first look in forms
<reinhard> at least in appserver
<jamest> and see how it's used
<jamest> as you may want to do what it does eventually
<reinhard> it's used to copy data files to their final destination
<reinhard> i think distutils can do this now
<jamest> thats what I was thinking too
<reinhard> maybe it can copy recursively and distutils can't
<reinhard> but i don't need that in appserver anyway
<jamest> but for some reason I kinda remember looking into getting rid of it but couldn't
<reinhard> ok thanks
<jcater> if appserver's setup.py isn't using it right now
<reinhard> that's enough to know for me
<jcater> then I doubt it would ever need it
<jcater> it was a very specific problem we had to install it to fix
<reinhard> thanks
<jbailey> distutils?
<jbailey> It can do something other than suck?
<jbailey> Wow.
<jbailey> *cRy*
<jamest> um
<jamest> not really
<jamest> but auto* is in a heated neck and neck race with it to see who can suck more
<chillywilly> jbailey: what si the problem with distutils?
<chillywilly> s/si/is/
<jamest> it sucks
<jamest> it really truely does suck
<jbailey> Yeah, but I can make auto* do everything that Derek once, except make it possible to develop under windows without a posix environment.
<chillywilly> but he was saying how you couldn't use --prefix but the docs say you can
<chillywilly> so I was curious
<jbailey> chillywilly: I get a traceback on gnue-common's setup.py with some options.
<jamest> when they started distutils it was to be a python equiv to autotools
<jamest> to make instlling apps and modules very easy
<jcater> it's turned into python's CPAN
<chillywilly> gnue-commmon has an "interesting" setup.py setup from what i can tell ;)
<jbailey> chillywilly: You can, but the gnue one doesn't honour it.  It still tries to create /usr/local/gnue.
<jamest> however if you visit the distutils site now they've dropped the "apps" part
<jamest> our setup system sucks
<jcater> jbailey: you'd need to get rid of setup.cfg or sed it, iirc
<chillywilly> http://www.python.org/doc/current/dist/dist.html <-- I started reading that as I was going to make a setup.py for PLY
<jamest> jcater and I have talked for ages about ripping it out
<jamest> and making something nicer
<jamest> but all we've done is talk (bitch mainly)
<jamest> IIRC
<chillywilly> PLY == Python Lex/Yacc in case anyone cares ;)
<jcater> I blame it on jamest, personally
<jamest> and I blame derek
<reinhard> I blame the goats
<reinhard> well
<reinhard> thanks for now
Action: chillywilly votes that jbailey write a new setup.py that works ;)
Action: jcater thinks reinhard just likes seeing us argue
<jcater> so he brings up something that'll get us all arguing again
<reinhard> probably I'll come back with many questions wrt setup.py, setup.cfg.in etc
Action: chillywilly runs away
<jcater> then he sits back in his chair
<jcater> and laughs at us
<chillywilly> hehehe
<jbailey> jcater: I think so, but then it doesn't behave like distutils documentation says it should. =(
<reinhard> jcater: how comes you know?
<jcater> possibly
<reinhard> bbl
reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."
<jcater> but we were using distutils as a means to an end
<jcater> not for the sake of using distutils w/all it's mighty feature set
<jamest> right
<jamest> i'm not against change
<jamest> i'd love something better
<jcater> i'd love some donuts
<jbailey> Sure, but someone who knows distutils (or autotools, or whatever...) ought to be able to just do standard things and have it DTRT.
<chillywilly> btw, what's the point of using atuo* for python anyway when python istself is supposed to be portable and AFAIK, that is the whole point of auto* to have a portable build system
<jbailey> Doughtnuts are something better. =)
<jcater> ToyMan: you around these days?
<jbailey> chillywilly: Because you still need a build system.  If distutils won't do it, then what?
<jbailey> chillywilly: The first 5 python packages I pulled out of the Debian archive all used Makefiles.
<chillywilly> jbailey: you're basing this on the current gnue-common ditutils usage? Maybe it is a bit old?
<chillywilly> and/or misused and abiused ;)
<jbailey> A big reason you use autotools over just makefiles is NOT the portability, but the ability to say --prefix=/usr --sysconfdir=/etc/gnue
<jamest> when we did distutils the autotools didn't do python
<jamest> and distutils was to be a python equiv of autotools
<jamest> today things are different
<jamest> however I'm not sure migration to makefiles is really in our best interest
<jbailey> You'll notice I'm not advocating that in particular.
<jamest> yeah
<jbailey> Just that a system needs to exist that is no more complicated that distutils or autotools is to run.
<jamest> yeah
<jbailey> My only comment is that I know how to do it with autotools.
Action: chillywilly did paste a url on disutils ;)
<chillywilly> distuitls even
<chillywilly> balaspdkljsdlfkj
Action: chillywilly hacks off his fingers
<chillywilly> I quit
<chillywilly> thre typo gods have won
<chillywilly> damn them!
<jamest> wow
<jamest> rms doesn't want windows shorted to win in gnu stuff anymore
<jbailey> It's always been that way.
<jamest> ah, i didn't know
<jbailey> that was in the old maintainers handbook, IIRC.
<jbailey> I've always ignored it.
<jbailey> Like that I usually call it Linux these days.
<jamest> he just sent out a mail
<jbailey> Yeah, I saw it.
<chillywilly> bah
<chillywilly> linux!
[13:39] Last message repeated 4 time(s).
<nickr> lunix
<chillywilly> leeeenoooks
<jamest> linenick
<jamest> s
<lupo__> leningrad
<chillywilly> uh?
<lupo__> chillywilly: dunno why i wrote this, but it was my first association
<chillywilly> ok
<Vee> How do I spell Linux? D-E-B-I-A-N *sigh* now that spells Linux!
<chillywilly> Debian GNU/Linux
<jamest> Spell linux....spell linux....can I get a definition?    ok.   Linux
<jamest> SCO
LuftHans (~lufthans@wsip-68-107-221-207.ph.ph.cox.net) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
tamas (~btami@ngprs.pannongsm.hu) joined #gnuenterprise.
dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.213.193) left irc: "Client exiting"
btami (~btami@ngprs.pannongsm.hu) joined #gnuenterprise.
Action: mouns vous souhaite une bonne nuit
mouns (mouns@kali.mouns.org) left irc: Remote closed the connection
reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<lupo__> Three bad letters ...
tamas (~btami@ngprs.pannongsm.hu) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
<jamest> i thought that's how you spelled it
<chillywilly> riight
<reinhard> a biritsh uinvretisy pvooerd taht poplee can raed eevrtyhnig if olny the frsit and the lsat ltteer of the wrod are crrocet. The rset of the ltteer can be ecxahnegd abrialrty.
<Vee> reinhard's been chillytized!
<chillywilly> riiiiight
<chillywilly> 15:20 [freenode] Vee [~vin@cavok154.august.net] requested unknown CTCP RIBRIB from chillywilly:
<chillywilly> silly man
<Vee> you guys just switched keyboards, right?
<chillywilly> bah!
<chillywilly> I'll switch you!
reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "I haven't lost my mind. I know exactly where I left it."
dsmith (~dsmith@mail.actron.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jbailey> chillywilly prefers ribbed?
<lupo__> btw, in which module is "jsclient" in ?
<btami> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jan/webfrontend/
<lupo__> thanks
ToyMan (~stuq@user-0cevdks.cable.mindspring.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<btami> if anyone wants UML, look at this http://pyut.sourceforge.net/
<jbailey> Usermode Linux?  Unified Modeling Language?
<btami> the second one
<ajmitch> hi!
<btami> hello ajmitch
<jamest> btami: stop!
<jamest> someone told me you wrote the pdf filter for simpletabulation
<btami> yes
<jamest> er, I mean "hi, hows it going?  know anything about reports pdf output?"
<jamest> i notice that alignment isn't honored
<jamest> i need to add that but didn't know if it was lack of time or technical reason it's not in there now
<jamest> or it should be working already and I've boned something up
<jamest> :)
<btami> wait, i have to look at source :)
<jamest> it looks to me like it's ignored
<jamest> and I'm guessing it's because of variable width font issues
<btami> it has alignment
<jamest> it does?
<btami>       self._tableStyle.append(('ALIGN', (i, 0), (i, 0), self._tableAlign[i].upper()))
<jamest> it's not working then
<btami> hmm
<jamest> hang on
<btami> i trid it with foobulations, and it was OK
<btami> tried
<jamest> aren't those for the column headings?
<btami> anyhow, the code has many hardcoded things, like 
<btami>     # first frame for title and sectiontitle
<btami>     f1 = Frame(self._doc.leftMargin-cm, self._doc.bottomMargin+self._doc.height-0.4*cm,
<btami>                     self._doc.width+2*cm, 2.5*cm, 
<jamest> yeah, thats on my list to harass you about
<jamest> as the end users have to pull up in acroread and print scale to fit page
<jamest> but I need this up and running about 2 weeks ago
<jamest> they told me , of course, 1 week ago
<jamest> and the next one is due 10/1
<jamest> a report
<jamest> so I've got time to burn on the report filter if you don't mind me mucking about with it
<jamest> where I'm getting into no alignment is on things like
<jamest>           <out:col align="right"><summ function="sum" section="nameBreak" field="subtotal" format="##,###.##"/></out:col>
<jamest> i was thinking that the align code you posted was for column headings
Action: jamest will cvs up here and take a look
<btami> yes
<jamest> yes I can mess with it
<jamest> or yes it's for headings?
<btami> yes, for heading
<jamest> and that style applies for the whole column?
<jamest> i can't reset per column?
<btami> yes
<jamest> due to pdf limitation?
<jamest> or other?
<btami> no, it was only my little exercise with writing filters
<btami> so, feel free to enhance it in any way
<jamest> are you using it now?
<btami> no, but siesel used it before
<jamest> ok
<btami> he added TTF support
<jamest> i need to smack him then
<jamest> as I was working from an old copy of gnue-reports and had everything working under woody
<jamest> printed test of the client
<jamest> cvs up'd their machine and broke the report
<jamest> as woody report lab doesn't do ttf
<jamest> :)
<btami> :)
<jamest> but this at least tells me I can search cvs logs and make it work on both ttf and non ttf systems
<btami> btw. i'm desperately waiting for jcater's next generation report markup
<btami> and the designer support for reports :)
<btami> i think i'ts the most "wanted"
<jamest> yeah, but any efforts put into pdf should be able to port over shouldn't it?
<jcater> btami: so am I
<jcater> I am personally getting quite impatient with jcater
<jcater> :)
<jcater> I hope to work on it again soon
<jcater> I have two biggies in Designer I want to finish
<jcater> plus a few odd and ends in Forms that I need
<btami> have you guys seen at CirbyBase http://www.netpromi.com/kirbybase.html
<btami> can it be a candidate for gnue flat file driver?
<btami> it's not sql though
<jamest> it'd require a new base module like DBSIG
<jamest> but nothing should stop a person from implementing it
<jamest> i've not looked at url btw
<jamest> gotta run
<jamest> bbi10m
jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) left irc: "Client exiting"
<btami> night all
btami (~btami@ngprs.pannongsm.hu) left irc: 
jbailey (~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com) left irc: "Client exiting"
wendall911 (~wendallc@198.31.172.218) left irc: Remote closed the connection
wendall911 (~wendallc@198.31.172.218) joined #gnuenterprise.
dneighbo (~dneighbo@ip68-109-180-32.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
jamest (~jamest@adsl-64-216-106-144.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
siesel (~jan@xdsl-213-196-214-21.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
siesel (~jan@xdsl-213-196-214-21.netcologne.de) left irc: Client Quit
derek (~dneighbo@ip68-109-180-32.ph.ph.cox.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
siesel (~jan@xdsl-213-196-214-21.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
siesel (~jan@xdsl-213-196-214-21.netcologne.de) left irc: Client Quit
jcater_ (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Nick collision from services.
Nick change: jcater_ -> jcater
Nick change: dneighbo -> derek
<derek> jcater / jamest if distutils is bad.. would there be harm in going with the hell called autotools?
Action: derek would like to see packages... at this point im willing to say you have to have cygwin to make packages on windows
<derek> as looking at the distutil issues jeff is having... they are freaking nasty
<derek> really fixing some of them might be more work than making a custom installer
<jamest> dunno
<jamest> i'm pretty sure it'd impact win32 build more than anything
<jamest> as Make and friends assume a shell
<jamest> however it looks like appserver is using Make anyway
<jamest> for doc building
<derek> hmmm what if we used Make and friends
<derek> and windows used distutils (or is that too painful to maintain two?)
Action: derek just isnt sure... i dont know which looks worse (ie. both solutions suck)
<jcater> it's pretty painful to maintain one; I'd hate to maintain two
<jcater> I'd get btami's input, honestly
<jamest> i'd just use jam
<derek> yeah i have no idea what hell is involved in making GNU Enterprise .exe's
<jamest> fwiw
<jamest> crystalspace wrappers setup.py inside it's make system
<derek> do we still have a form/driver that edits connections.conf
<derek> jamest: that might be an interesting approach actually
<derek> do you guys have a problem if i make it so any of the GNU Enterprise tools that when trying to find a connections.conf
<derek> if they dont find one... prompt the user
<derek> "would you like to create a connections.conf"
<jcater> gack
<jcater> maybe during installation
<derek> and then launch "wizards" (ie series of forms to configure one)
<jamest> my users will not create one
<jcater> but I don't want my users creating one
<jamest> as that is system file
<jcater> if I screwed something up
<derek> jamest: this would only be IF a valid one is not found
<jamest> they should call me
<jamest> exactly
<derek> and it would write the one they make to their home directory
<jamest> the the admin fscked up
<derek> sigh this is highly problematic
<derek> i think the default should be it asks
<jamest> why?
<derek> as its half the problem we have with new installs
<jcater> I think it should ask during installation
<jcater> I can't stand programs
<jamest> make it ask during install
<jcater> (like OpenOffice)
<jcater> that ask for config stuff first time you run it
<jamest> and these aren't user settings
<derek> jcater: i tend to agree, but in this case GNU Enterprise is pretty useless w/o a proper connections.conf
<jamest> then it should ask during install
<jamest> not the end user
<derek> sigh....
<derek> i will revisit with jbailey
<derek> he was thinking it didnt belong in deb conf
<jamest> imagine if mozilla said
<jamest> you don't have a /etc/printcap  shall we create one?
<jamest> when you tried to print
<jcater> why wouldn't debconf handle it?
<jcater> "Would you like debconf to handle your connections.conf file? Yes/No"
<jamest> it's so fundamentally critical to the functionality of gnue that your admin must install it
<jcater> Yes --> take them to a wizard to configure it
<jcater> No --> do nothing
<derek> im cool w/ whatever, but still think if its not finding something it should handle itself better
<jcater> like XConfig
<jcater> (which I always say no to :)
<derek> i.e. for idiot sysadmins/users
<derek> if it cant find a connections.conf i dont see the evil in trying to get them to be able to make one
<jamest> i don't even know how it reacts 
<derek> i.e. having a system that just shits out is far worse
<jcater> sure
<derek> i can see your perspective as sysadmins
<jcater> but I'm sure there's middle ground between
<jcater> "shitting out"
<jcater> and "autostarting a wizard"
<derek> but i think if we apply the 80/20 rule your situation is the 20
<jamest> it's a lot of complexity
<derek> i.e. competent admins are hard to find :)
<jamest> i'd rather see gnue say "Unable to run.  Missing gnue/etc/connections.conf file."
<jamest> or something to that effect
<derek> would a compromise be making a separate application to manage these things (or let designer manage them)
<jamest> i'd like a real setup system
<jcater> ditto
<derek> and then say "Unable to run.  Missing gnue/etc/connections.conf.  Please contact system administration or run foomatic"
<jamest> in the ideal world it'd handle stuff like that
<derek> yes nice setup system would be a plus
<derek> BUT
<derek> how do we do packages then?
<jamest> and provide 99% of the automation in creating debs, rpms, tgz, etc
<derek> i.e. are we going to go way of games and such, that do not use pacakge systems
<derek> and just do complete custom installs
<jcater> ?
<derek> or are we going to try to make package that somehow behaves nicely
<derek> jcater: when i used redhat there was no debconf equivalent
<jamest> someone COULD fix our setup.pys
<derek> so if i make an .rpm
<jamest> it's not like we've locked them down
<jamest> so they play nice
<derek> how the hell do i tell it to configure connections.conf when i do rpm --install gnue-foo
<derek> i hope that makes sense
<jamest> in the ideal setup system that doesn't exist
<jamest> but that i'd like to see
<jamest> it could have a --check-install
<jamest> that package mgrs could call
<derek> im game for whatever, but after the training class (30 people) and helping oodles of people here
<jamest> surely rpm allows a post install script
<derek> our install is one thing really holding us back
<jamest> free time is holding us back
<derek> people cant seem to get GNU Enterprise working which is sad, because generally it takes about 10 minutes on debian :(
<jamest> well I'm all for things working
<derek> the four biggest things i see in the install that kill people (and 3 releate to databases)
<jamest> but honestly my current work day is 8am to 1am with lunch breaks
<derek> 1. people dont know how to install and configure their database (and its accounts) i.e. its a database problem (we cant fix this)
<derek> 2. people dont install the python driver for their database (we can fix this with good install/packaging like windows does)
<derek> 3. people dont configure connections.conf properly to talk to the database (we can fix this with good install/packaging)
<derek> 4. people dont have packaging and install the setup.py files with wrong or conflicting versions of python (we can fix this with good install/packaging)
<jamest> so if someone other than me wants to "fix" it I really don't have the energy to care if it's done w/ package A or B or C
<jcater> I don't see an autoconf system solving a single one of those issues, btw
<jamest> imho python is missing a good install system in general
<jcater> yes
<jamest> that is what I wanted to create w/ gnue
<jcater> I think distutils is probably good for what it is meant to be
<jcater> i.e., a module installation tool
<jcater> but for apps, it sucks
<jamest> a really polished tool, even based upon distutils if possible, that makes installing, packaging apps simple
<jamest> as honestly our setup.py's are outdated
<jamest> but the core functionality of gnue is all in python modules
<jamest> with tiny python wrappers that can be installed anywhere
<derek> jcater: i agree autotools is just as evil and doesnt solve
<jamest> so much of our setup.py's are duplicated over and over in each app
<jamest> all the needs of the system are there in hacks
<derek> bbl.... btw not complaining just relaying feedback and experiecing in helping new users
<jamest> dependency checking
<jamest> documentation and packaging generation (limited)
<jamest> script generation
<jamest> i've probably got 20 python apps that I hand install now
<jamest> all based on common
<jamest> because distutils sucks
<jamest> and modifying one of our setup.py's is a PITA too
<jcater> lol
<jamest> it shouldn't be that hard
<jcater> I'll have to send you the one I use for the store
<jcater> it's a 2-3 liner
<jcater> mkdir /usr/local/market 2>/dev/null
<jcater> cp -R . /usr/local/market
<jcater> rm -rf `find /usr/local/market -name CVS`
<jamest> looks like my java install script
<jcater> but it might not be flexible enough for most =)
<jamest> but I do support build and install options :)
<jamest> beats the old way
<jamest> cd javadir
<jamest> javac *.*
<jamest> cp * /usr/local/bin
<jamest> (i could have killed him)
<jamest> why?
<jamest> bash-2.05b$ cd src
<jamest> bash-2.05b$ javac *.java
<jamest> Note: Some input files use or override a deprecated API.
<jamest> Note: Recompile with -deprecation for details.
<jamest> bash-2.05b$ ls | wc -l
<jamest> 192
<jamest> the number of executables in that bunch.... 2
<jamest> the rest were .java and .class files
nickr (nick@e-64-35-146-235.empnet.net) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
<jamest> derek: does rpm let you run a script after install?
<chillywilly> I think it does now
jbailey (~jbailey@CPE0060082df811-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
Action: jamest thwaps jbailey
<jamest> we've been talking setup issues
<jbailey> I knew it!
<jbailey> Chillywilly has possessed jamest!
<jamest> ew
<derek> jamest: i dont think it did in 5.2, 6.0, 6.2 i have no clue about > 6.2
<jamest> get him out! get him out!
<jbailey> We need to excersize jamest.
<jbailey> Quick!  on the treadmill!
<jamest> argh!
<jamest> not that
<jamest> anything but that
<jamest> well
<jbailey> ('cause exercise I'm sure would scare Dan out... *g*)
<jamest> anything but that and new setup systems
<jamest> sigh, i really do need a better setup system
<chillywilly> how's I do that?
<derek> jbailey, jamest and jcater agreed w/ my original assessment that connections.conf should be handled at install time (with something like debconf) or good installer
Action: chillywilly is not scared of exercise
<chillywilly> you must have me confused with derek 
Action: derek sees value in offering to do for user if not run
<jbailey> derek: The Debian way is that the absolute minimum of things should be in debconf that are required to make the system work.
Action: jamest smacks derek for suggesting a user can cope with anything beyond surfing for porn, warez, and mp3s
<derek> chillywilly: im coaching soccer 3 times a week, playing 2 softball games a week, refereeing 1 soccer game a week and no intaking any carbs
<derek> you have me confused with the old derek :)
<jbailey> I think having a global installer that can either configure $(sysconfdir)/connections.conf or ~/.gnue/connections.conf makes sense.
<derek> jbailey: but isnt connections.conf pretty much necessary to make gnue-common useful?
<jbailey> But gnue needs to 1) Cope gracefully with it not being there, and 2) Cope with user-only setups as an option.
<jamest> jbailey: my issues is would you have users prompted to install /etc/printcap?
<jamest> or fstab
<chillywilly> derek: have you lost weight?
<chillywilly> that's a lot of activity
<chillywilly> ;P
<jamest> i want a good setup system
<jbailey> jamest: For a printer attached to a local machine?  No.  It's strongly really only useful on a system-wide basis.  CUPS however, does require the user to set it up.
<chillywilly> ok, I'll have one ready in 2 days
<jbailey> (or at least gnome's implementation does)
<jbailey> fstab again refers to a system-wide resouce.
<jbailey> I can imagine a number of scenarios where a single system-wide connections.conf makes no sense.
<jamest> i use cups at work and it autoinstalls
<chillywilly> derek: does playing guitar count as exercise?
<chillywilly> ;P
<jbailey> But that the users would setup their own connections.conf
<jamest> users dont do anything in kde
<jbailey> chillywilly: No, but the singing causes the neighbours to run for the hills. =)
<jamest> i see connections.conf as a systemwide file
<chillywilly> jbailey: I don't sing
<jbailey> chillywilly: Well then give me something else to make fun of, dammit!
<jbailey> ;)
<chillywilly> derek?
<chillywilly> ;P
<jamest> the receptionist running the fax assignment form here in town would pick up the phone if the form told her to setup the db connection
<chillywilly> there's something
<jbailey> jamest: But why?  Why would my wife and I necessarily use the same databases.
<jamest> as she's NOT going to know what the hell it's talking about
<jamest> you wouldn't have to use the same file
<jbailey> Sure, and possibly in her case a system-wide file might make sense.
<jbailey> *blink*
<jamest> but part of a gnue install is setting up a system wide connections.conf file
<jbailey> It's not the Hurd, how do you have different /etc/gnue/connections.conf files?
<jamest> if the users want custom they can tweak the system to get it
<jamest> via the env vars
<jbailey> env vars?
<chillywilly> *tweak* *tweak*
<jbailey> You're worried about a user not knowing what a DB is and you want her to set env vars?
nickr (nick@e-64-35-146-235.empnet.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jamest> no
<chillywilly> GNUE_CONNECTIONS...or some crap like that
<jamest> i'm saying that most users won't know wtf to do if prompted for that
<jamest> and the power users can setup their own
<jamest> lets use jcater or i as example
<jbailey> Reasonable.  It's part of why MS Access sucks so bad is because the database connection wizards suck unwashed ass.
<jamest> we both deal with call centers with 20+ phones
<jamest> that screams system wide conf
<jbailey> Sure does.
<jamest> so if gnue bombs on missing connections.conf then that is a major bug
<jbailey> I have a call centre with 35 phones split into 3 queues that each use a different database.
<jbailey> There isn't a single system wide conf there.
<jamest> so in connections.conf i put 3 entries
<jcater> why not?
<jcater> I have 3 queues at my callcenter
<jbailey> jcater: Because it's important that they not have access to each others databases.
<jamest> i have 2
<jcater> but connections.conf doesn't define a single connection
<jcater> it defines *all* the connections
<jamest> they all use the same form?
<jbailey> jamest: no.
<jamest> in connections.conf I'd put
<jamest> [queue1]
<jamest>   info
<jamest> [queue2]
<jamest>   info
<jamest> [queue3]
<jamest>   info
<jamest> then segment inside the form
<jbailey> Sure, and that's certainly an option.  I hate having that system wide.
<jbailey> It's a style thing.
<jamest> we don't force systemwide
<jbailey> Nowhere in here am I arguing against system-wide connections.conf.
<jamest> it's only the default setup
<jbailey> I'm saying that gnue needs to be able to cope gracefully if there's no /etc/gnue/connections.conf
<jamest> and if it's not doing that then it's a bug
<jcater> we've never argued against that
<jbailey> And that a wizard needs to be able to install in ~/.gnue/connections.conf if it's not run as root.
<jcater> but I don't think auto-starting a wizard if connections.conf doesn't exist
<jcater> is graceful
<jcater> but that
<jbailey> Neither is a traceback. =)
<jcater> aargh!!!!!!!!
<jcater> I just said we handle it gracefully
<jcater> err
<jcater> I never said we handled it gracefully
<jbailey> Then tell Derek to stop filing bugs. =)
<jcater> like I told derek
<jcater> there's middle ground between
<jbailey> That's a dan quayle type of quote:
<jbailey> <jcater> I just said we handle it gracefully
<jbailey> <jcater> err
<jbailey> <jcater> I never said we handled it gracefully
<jbailey> I like it. =)
<jcater> tracebacking and auto-wizard'ing
<jcater> dan quayle, or George W. Bush?
<jcater> <jcater> I just said we handle it gracefully
<jcater> we handle it gracefully?
<jcater> <jcater> No. I never said that!
<jcater> sounds like our president to me
<jbailey> I'm not hung up on the auto-wizarding.  My opinion is that it's nicer than a "Your sysadmin sucks and didn't set you up" error message.
<jbailey> jcater: Your president isn't that articulate.
<jamest> i'd prefer a sysadmin sucks message
<jamest> as either way I'd be getting a call
<jbailey> I'm thinking from the point of view of being a sysadmin: Getting a message telling me to call me system administrator pisses me off.
<jcater> jbailey: are you kidding?
<jbailey> In MS-land it happens *All* the time.
<jamest> it's a sign I fucked up
<jcater> he speaks money fluently
<jcater> english may be an issue, though
<jamest> ok
<jamest> so right now gnue pukes on missing connections.conf?
<jbailey> Yeah.
<jamest> then that's a bug
<jamest> i'll attempt to at least get rid of the traceback
<jamest> give me 10 minutes
<jbailey> The windows wizard I saw was quite nice.  I could easily put something in the README that said to run the install wizard.
<jbailey> (or pointing to docs on how to setup the connections.conf)
Action: jcater starts his stopwatch
<jamest> as for setup systems
<jbailey> Debconf runs before gnue is installed.
<jamest> we know our sucks
<jbailey> So there's a limit as to how much we can do there.
<jamest> what about a post install script?
<jamest> can debian call those
<jbailey> A postinstall script kills automated installs.
<jbailey> I can put up a debconf note saying that a script needs to be run to make gnue useful.
<jamest> but it can't call the config program like the old xserver stuff did?
<jcater> I'm confused
<jcater> I've seen debian packages that
<jcater> if running automated, didn't do user prompting for stuff like this
<jbailey> The old xserver doesn't do that anymore because it violated Debian policy.
<jcater> but if not running automated, was nice enough to offer the sysadmin assistance
<jbailey> Now you have to call dexconf yourself.
<jbailey> i think Branden declared that release the "all must suffer because some can't read" release. =)
<jbailey> Debian's install sucks in that there's really no place there for automated setups.
<jamest> wtf?
<jamest> it doesn't traceback
Action: jbailey troutslaps derek.
<jbailey> Oh no!
<jbailey> Now I'm possessed!
Action: jbailey hops on the rowing machine.
<jamest> bash-2.05b$ gfcvs zipcode.gfd
<jamest> ------------------------------------------------------------
<jamest> Error: The connections file does not contain a definition
<jamest>        for "gnue".
<jamest> File:
<jamest> ------------------------------------------------------------
<jamest> ah hell, derek reported that....wait a sec lemme test something
<jamest> su - derek
<jamest> whoops, wrong window
<jbailey> Segmentation Fault
<jamest> i can't make it traceback
<jamest> derek: need more data
<jbailey> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=171540
<jamest> oo hang on
<jamest> reports does traceback
<jamest> just a moment
<jcater> uggh
<jcater> well reports is only 0.1.x too :)
<jcater> no where near as user-ready as forms
<jbailey> The bug report isn't new, it may have changed some, too.
<jbailey> I was mostly ignoring the problem as annoying until I could get the setup.py behaving reasonably.
<jamest> commited fix
<jbailey> w00t
<chillywilly> anyone ever see the people under the stairs?
<chillywilly> the movie
<jcater> I've seen people under our stairs
<jcater> but the wife has asked that I not mention that to others
<jbailey> jcater: It might be Harry Potter.
<jamest> that's what I was thinking
<chillywilly> the movie
<chillywilly> don't you people read what is typed?
<jamest> depends on who it is 
<jamest> you, of course we do
<jamest> you're the guy with people under the stairs right?
<jbailey> No, that's jcater.
<jamest> ooooo yeah
<jamest> then who's this chillywilly fella?
<jbailey> Perhaps they were trying to look up chillywilly's skirt.
<jamest> I'm going to have to go drill out a portion of my brain now
<jbailey> jamest: You mean, you'll fix distutils? =)
<jamest> sigh
<jbailey> Oh, I see.
<jbailey> The *other* portion. =(
<chillywilly> jamest: that's what the father in people under the stairs did to the people under the stairs
<chillywilly> labotomy
<jbailey> chillywilly: Looked up their skirts?
<jbailey> Weird.
<jbailey> You usually wait for them to pass overhead.
<jbailey> Or encourage them to.
<chillywilly> you guys are being jus stupid...I mean it's one thing to crack jokes but wehn explicitly say one thing ans you completely ignore it to make a joke I think that is just trying much too hard
<jcater> was that english?
<jamest> sigh
<jbailey> Y'know.  My sister always said I was trying too...
<chillywilly> jcater: what?
<chillywilly> I speak american!
<jamest> i've not seen the movie
<chillywilly> course not
<jbailey> I didn't know there was a movie. =)
<chillywilly> you're socially inept
<chillywilly> ;P
<jbailey> But I don't generally do horror.
<jamest> if it doesn't have death rays, or exposions, or robots
<chillywilly> wuss
<jbailey> (horrour?  No, I don't think we canadianise that one)
<jamest> then why bother?
<jbailey> jamest: There's always sex.
<chillywilly> hey it's on scifi channel
<jamest> vs going to the movie?
<jbailey> jamest: I'll drink to that.
<jamest> jbailey: is that really an option?
<jbailey> jamest: Drinking?
<jamest> i mean, it wasn't like I was going to the movie anyway
<jamest> sex
<jbailey> or sex?
<jcater> sex?
<jamest> yeah
<jcater> what's this "sex" you guys speak of?
<jamest> that thing I guess you do if you don't go to the moie
<jamest> movie
<jamest> it's all the rage in canada
<jbailey> Sure.  *everyone*'s doing it.
<jbailey> Boys, Girls.
<jbailey> BOys with boys, girls with girls.
<jamest> Canadians
<jbailey> =)
<jcater> must be related to the mary-juana
<jamest> that's what I was thinking
<jamest> damn hippies
<chillywilly> haha
<jcater> besides, I think something like that's outlawed by our dictator
<havoc> speaking of our dictator; I've now been refering to our economy as "Bush-wacked"
<havoc> remember, you heard it here first :)
<nickr> girls, boys, girls, boys, always should be someone you really love
<jcater> or at least really love to do
<jamest> havoc: :)
<nickr> http://www.lyricsdepot.com/blur/girls-and-boys.html
<jamest> is it clean?
<jcater> jamest: no
<jcater> I'm reasonably sure it's against RIAA laws
<jamest> :)
<nickr> fear their rath
<nickr> otherwise I'd rate it pg
LuftHans (~lufthans@wsip-68-107-221-207.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
Nick change: SachaZzz -> SachaS
<SachaS> morning
ToyMan (~stuq@user-0cevdks.cable.mindspring.com) left irc: "Client Exiting"
jbailey (~jbailey@CPE0060082df811-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: "Client exiting"
<jamest> howdy
<chillywilly> heya
jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: "l8r"
jamest (~jamest@adsl-64-216-106-144.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) left irc: "Client exiting"
Action: SachaS should really really work on his thesis
<LuftHans> work it, work it
<LuftHans> just 3 more girls
Action: SachaS just connected OO 1.1r2 to postgresql with gnue-sb database :)=
<SachaS> i can browse tables wtihin OO
<LuftHans> cool
<LuftHans> I haven't yet gotten that working
<SachaS> somehow you could have forms done with OO
<SachaS> found the form functions bar ...
<SachaS> ok. File->AutoPilot->Form
<derek> <chillywilly> derek: have you lost weight? ---> I have gone from 218 to 188 (over course of 3 months, no exercise, just lifestyle change) now that am getting extra exercise i am hoping to get down to about 180
<SachaS> ok OO form shows contact_id, first_name, and last_name
<SachaS> OO form allows to navigate back and forth
<SachaS> somehow you can add slave data .. eg address of contact_id ...
<SachaS> somehow I cant get back into  the forms editing mode ...
<derek> <jamest> so right now gnue pukes on missing connections.conf?
<derek> <jbailey> Yeah.
<derek> <jamest> then that's a bug
<derek> is jamest admitting i filed a VALID bug ;)(
<chillywilly> derek: nice
<chillywilly> (about the weight loss)
<derek> SachaS: sounds like OO is ready to replace GNU Enterprise
--- Thu Sep 18 2003