ToyMan (~stuq@user-0cevdks.cable.mindspring.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<mdupont> good morning
<chillywilly> hi
<mdupont> how you going chillywilly?
<chillywilly> fine thanks, and you?
<mdupont> better, I have gotten into optimizing my data representation for the compiler data using data cubes
<chillywilly> whatever that is
<mdupont> well, instead of trees and complex data, just compact arrays
<mdupont> matrixes basically
<mdupont> That is the basis of OLAP and multidimensional database
<mdupont> and it will be interesting for GNUE in the long run,
<mdupont> there is a GPLed project : EFEU 
Action: mdupont rumages a link
<mdupont> http://efeu.cybertec.at/index_en.html
ToyMan (~stuq@user-0cevdks.cable.mindspring.com) left irc: "Client Exiting"
dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.164.179) joined #gnuenterprise.
<dtm> mdupont: that sounds hard core.
<mdupont> hey dtm
<mdupont> you like that?
<mdupont> the data cubes i mean
<dtm> mdupont: well i'm not personally a computer scientist but i can appreciate the purpose
<dtm> i was with chillywilly on the "whatever that is" :)  until i got context from your explanation
<dtm> i can see that it's a necessary layer
<mdupont> cool
<dtm> mdupont: so it's for reorganizing source code or data sets or what?
<mdupont> well,
<mdupont> the idea is this :
<mdupont> err wait
<mdupont> the purpose is this :
<mdupont> 1. to make it easy to extract data out of existing programs
<mdupont> 2. to make it *fast* to run the data extraction tools
<mdupont> 3. to make it easy to separate these tools from the compiler
<mdupont> first i started with xml
<mdupont> then I moved to rdf
<mdupont> now i see that it just might be much better to use data arrays
<mdupont> the data arrays or cubes are also needed in an data warehouse envioronment
<mdupont> other people have similar needs
<mdupont> to pull together many disparate sources of data into a concise set of vectors
<mdupont> and squash them down into something small and easy to process
<mdupont> that can be held in the cache of a computer
<dtm> hm
<dtm> mdupont: has this kind of technique already been stewarded in the computer science community?
<mdupont> i am very sure it has
<mdupont> I have read some paper on this
<dtm> mdupont: i'd think that you'd find these concepts in a knowledge management setting
<mdupont> under data mining
<mdupont> yes
<dtm> mdupont: you're talking about metadata for searching, as well as extraction of the data
<mdupont> dtm: your right
<dtm> mdupont: i only know of one open src knowledge management system, called Phronesis
<dtm> but i haven't researched much
<mdupont> i have been working with the sematic web stuff
<dtm> mdupont: a guy named lex who hangs out here, is affiliated with it
Action: mdupont googles Phronesis
<dtm> it's from a Mexican university
<dtm> mdupont: also i wonder if the Open Groupware Standards group has come up with anything
<dtm> mdupont: they had members such as OO.o and Ximian
<mdupont> dtm: you wanted that ip->country db?
<dtm> mdupont: yeah
<dtm> i have lightly researched the topic of geotargeting and i'd come up with GeoIP from maxmind.com because it's already integrated with several open src projects
<dtm> such as webalizer and phpadsnew
<dtm> although i'm not sure how accurate geotargeting based on IP addresses, can be
<mdupont> dtm: that is funny
<dtm> i'd be satisfied with the level of US states, probably
<mdupont> i was just talking to swashd on #phpgw, he wanted that
<dtm> oic
<dtm> yeah i used to work with skwashd
<mdupont> i must have confused the two
<dtm> oh, hehe
<dtm> what a coincidence
<mdupont> :) funny that, your both aus.?
<dtm> i just learned about it last month
<dtm> no i'm american
<mdupont> ok, now i am confused
<dtm> we collaborated in #axisgroupware
<mdupont> where you comefrom?
<dtm> from the US
<mdupont> i am from Joisey, you?
<dtm> hehe Kansas
<dtm> i just ordered RAM from Joisey, and i worked with dyfet who's in Joisey
<dtm> author of Bayonne
<mdupont> Kansas? my mom is from there
<mdupont> my grandpa lived in Salina
<chillywilly> if you would've said OLAP I would've known what you were talking about
<chillywilly> ;P
<mdupont> dyfet, he is working on some good stuff
<mdupont> chillywilly: sorry, you know me. always confused
<mdupont> (and confusing)
<dtm> mdupont: i live in Salina
<dtm> mdupont: what's the last name
<mdupont> i think we have talked
<mdupont> cooley
<dtm> yeah probably long ago
<mdupont> sid cooley
<dtm> ok i dont know any Cooleys offhand but i bet my family does
<mdupont> my mom, virgina cooley
<dtm> are they all based in Salina?
<mdupont> went to salina weslean
<dtm> call em up and tell em to come see me at our garage sale at 820 Highland tomorrow :)
<mdupont> well, based out of mountain grove mo.
<dtm> it's a major huge event
<mdupont> :)
<dtm> :)
<dtm> our garage sales take up a whole backyard
<mdupont> well, my pa lives now near kansas city with my uncle
<dtm> oic
<dtm> mdupont: so are you primarily a knowledge management hacker?
<mdupont> i am just a hacker, i am moving towards knowledge engineering because that is most like what I am doing
<dtm> cool
<mdupont> but my experience is with client server business apps
<dtm> mdupont: do you base any of your work on gnue?
<mdupont> i have an idea for gnu to make money
<mdupont> gnue
<dtm> mdupont: oh really
<mdupont> not yet.
<dtm> is it suitable for open discussion? :)
<mdupont> I was turned off by prolog
<mdupont> errr
<mdupont> python
<dtm> hehe
<mdupont> but now I am working on learning python
<dtm> oic
<mdupont> i have been working on a python -> rdf converted
<mdupont> converted
<mdupont> converter
<mdupont> for the introspector
<mdupont> that might be of interest
<chillywilly> ah, crap session timed out
<chillywilly> freakin' A
<mdupont> http://introspector.sourceforge.net/2003/09/PythonIntrospector.py
<mdupont> that is the start of the python->rdf converter
<mdupont> later you will be also able to use that to make a datacube out of gnue :)
<mdupont> think about it : turn your program into a database!
<mdupont> dtm: but the business idea, yes we can talk about it
<dtm> ok feel free to pontificate
<mdupont> without getting into any details, I want to make a small and fast telcoms billing system for voice, data, ip and wifi
<dtm> chillywilly: your MX session?  that countdown box was hilarious :)
<mdupont> it should be standalone and plug and play
<dtm> mdupont: oic. what prompts you into that field?
<mdupont> i have 7 years of telcoms billings experience
<mdupont> and have make 4 generations of high speed rating engines
<mdupont> i want to make one for the open source comunnity
<mdupont> and sell consultancy services
<mdupont> and custimaizations
Action: mdupont cannot spell
<dtm> hey you know how it is.  you try and get the first and last letters of each word, and i can take care of the rest ;)
<mdupont> hehe
<dtm> spelling vs. reading is a collaborative art around here ;)
<dtm> <-- contextual hacker
<mdupont> Basically, the end result will be box you just plug in and it does your isdn, ip and wifi billing for you
<dtm> mdupont: well maybe you should talk to OST then, once you provide a proof of concept or whatever's appropriate :)
<mdupont> good for small/medium business 
<mdupont> OST?
<dtm> they are all about productization of Bayonne these days
<mdupont> it would work well with bayonne
<dtm> yeah.
<mdupont> but it should also work with isdn for linux
<mdupont> and also be able to bill based on weblogs
<mdupont> or also phonelogs
<chillywilly> my software can make coffee
<chillywilly> it's the next best thing since sliced bread
<chillywilly> damnit
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> hmmmm
<dtm> chillywilly: Your ideas on the field of yeast expansion and caffeine-enhanced awareness intrigue me and I should like to subscribe to your newsletter.
<mdupont> yeast expansion : beer?
Action: chillywilly didn't know yeast was involved in roasting coffee
<dtm> mdupont: well a lot of what i say is made up on the fly on a semi-nonsequitur basis, but i assure you it never has anything to do with that
<dtm> chillywilly: the sliced bread does
<chillywilly> ah, duh
<dtm> sliced or no
<dtm> furthermore I would like to know if your software actually slices the bread.
<chillywilly> negative
<dtm> oic
<chillywilly> who has bread with coffee?
Action: dtm hangs back until the next revision
<dtm> oh yeah, and i dont like coffee :/
<chillywilly> only sick adn twisted individuals such as you ;)
<chillywilly> figures
<chillywilly> coffee is good
<dtm> not the normal kind, not unless it's espresso and whatnot, only once in a while, lest i become the cornholio
<chillywilly> much lesss calories
<chillywilly> and more caffeine
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> I can see it now
<chillywilly> "IiIIIIII aaaam coooornnnhoooolioo!!!!"
<dtm> <---- crazymadstoopidwickedsillyfresh
<dtm> BAAAAAAaaaam!!!
<chillywilly> I need TP for my bung hole
Action: dtm hands chillywilly a coupon
Action: mdupont is scared
<dtm> they're $1 off at your local grocer
<dtm> hehe here's my last command query on netlibrary.com:
<dtm> ti:professional not ti:windows
<dtm> ;)
<dtm> oh boy, that's /topic material.
<dtm> but we dont do the frivolous changing of the /topic around here like in some kiddie channels
<chillywilly> it's all bidness here
<chillywilly> hmm, think I need some more cereal
<chillywilly> Ed, Edd, and Eddy rocks
<dtm> dewd we'reup late again.
<dtm> and i have already been to bed
<dtm> :/
<dtm> sometmies i wake up all of a sudden, seconds before something important happens like a phone call.  then my dad called.
<dtm> i have a 50/50 chance of not needing an alarm clock at any particular point coz i can just wake up on demand at exactly the right time a lot of the time
<dtm> and in this case i wanted to sleep
<dtm> n33d
<chillywilly> it's the weekend
<chillywilly> I have all the time in the werld
<chillywilly> whiiirled
<dtm> geez man, i'm all over this Disturbed stuff
<dtm> these guys are *so* tight
<dtm> chillywilly: you ever hear them?
<dtm> it drives me batty
<chillywilly> yea, nothing special if ya ask me
<chillywilly> something for the kiddies
Action: chillywilly is old skool
<dtm> well i thought the very same based on what I saw on MTV
<dtm> partially because watching MTV forces extremely high repetition and for me, guaranteed content burnout
<dtm> but 2 years later, i get their whole album and BAAAAAAaaaam!  it's silly fresh!
<dtm> i'm stoopid widdit!!
<dtm> i am hesitant to extoll its effects on me, in this public forum
<chillywilly> uh, ok
Action: dtm eyes the perimeter, scanning for The Watchers.....   logging our every move to the web .... immortalizing on google
Action: dtm feels THE EYE OF GNUE
<chillywilly> the evil one Java searches for the ONE TROUT...he seeks its power
<dtm> i listen these mp3s every single day at least once, even when i wonder whether i should.
<dtm> also they're VERY VERY NEGATIVE.
<dtm> i forgot to mention that part
<chillywilly> I liten to the fish
<chillywilly> listen
<chillywilly> I got the worship together CD off TV too
<chillywilly> it rocks
<dtm> i saw a clip of a live Disturbed concert where the vocalist was admonishing the audience to channel into him the sum of all anger, negativity, and raw hatred in their lives
<dtm> oic
<dtm> i know nothing of this product
<chillywilly> contemporary christian music
<chillywilly> fewlio
<dtm> well i picked up a couple of those this week
<dtm> Petra for one
<dtm> "jeckyll and hyde", which i identify with so much that it made me pause
<dtm> heeeee
<dtm> i know chillywilly be knowed what I talkin bout
<chillywilly> yea
<dtm> i try to balance between addressing THE SICKNESS vs salvation :)
<chillywilly> you ever "Let it Rise" by Paul Belosch?
<chillywilly> dunno if I spelled that right
<chillywilly> we're going to be rockin out on that one come sunday
<dtm> man i had something come over me and i was listening to Rage Against the Machine nonstop and actually felt myself starting to think HEY YEAH THESE GUYS KNOW WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT.  kinda like how you involuntarily nod your head when listening to a speech.
<dtm> oic
<dtm> i dont know
<dtm> it was like i was thinking "yeah i really feel a need to listen to RATM but i probably shouldnt"
<dtm> for about a week.
<mdupont> dtm: i was listening to RATM and was thinking they are not better
<mdupont> "beliveing all the lies they are tellling ya" could also be "all the lies we are telling ya"
<mdupont> sure they are angry, but they are a product
<chillywilly> hmmmm?
<chillywilly> I feel pity for people who are perpetually angry
<mdupont> :)
<mdupont> w0rd chilly
<dtm> mdupont: hehe
<dtm> i try to feel compassion :)
<dtm> RATM says something liek "wish i could be peaceful, but there can be no sequel" 
<dtm> but also that he's a mofo with a furious mind
<dtm> heheh
<dtm> er,sorry, a brother with a furious mind
<dtm> i didn't mean to misattribute such vulgarity ;-)
<mdupont> its ok, he is a mofo
<chillywilly> uh.....
Action: dtm worries about what mom will think of him when she googles up his name in 20 years and finds the GNUe archives
<dtm> i seriously dont like public web logs, major privacy violatoin even in a public forum
<dtm> due to context
<dtm> google + web logs ~= facial recognition
<dtm> kernel cousins is grand, though
<mdupont> yes, I want to have some of my stuff removed from the dotgnu logs
<mdupont> the incriminating stuff
<chillywilly> if you can't say it in a public forum perhaps you shouldn't have said it at all
<chillywilly> muwahahha
<dtm> i'm majorly completely against public logs and it has actually deterred me from #gnuenterprise (you can put that in your kernel cousin, buddy)  ;)
<dtm> chillywilly: upstanding citizens have nothing to fear!  :)
<dtm> Nothing to fear, because they have nothing to.... hide?
<chillywilly> damn skippy
<dtm> hehe
<chillywilly> I am not ashamed for being me
Action: dtm apologizes to chillywilly again for fighting in the past :)
<dtm> and to community as well
<dtm> such pollution!
<chillywilly> what? ;)
<dtm> <3
<chillywilly> I don't recall such things
<chillywilly> ;P
<dtm> yeah
<dtm> that's because you're an accomplished Christian :)
Action: dtm pats chillywilly 
<chillywilly> erm....ok
<dtm> we let it go
<chillywilly> right, well even if I wasn't it doesn't do anyone any good to hold a grudge
<dtm> what's the easiest way to tell if a GIF has lzw compression, or if GIMP is using LZW
<chillywilly> it's pointless
<dtm> yeah
<dtm> in which case, short attention span is a blessing
<chillywilly> I have no idea about that gimp thang dtm 
<dtm> ok
<dtm> coz the LZW patent is up, right?
<chillywilly> I think it is now
<chillywilly> but even so I don
<chillywilly> don't know how to check
Action: dtm brings tha violence @ patent
<chillywilly> need something to drink
<chillywilly> we have pepsi...and 50/50
<chillywilly> hmmmmmmm
<dtm> what's50/50
<dtm> man i drink only the store brand
<dtm> good stuph
<dtm> 4 liters @ $1
<dtm> 10x more flavors
<dtm> MindControlMarketing.com: How Everyday People are Using Forbidden Mind Control Psychology and Ruthless Military Tactics to Make Millions Online by Mark Joyner (Paperback)
<dtm> heheh 
<mdupont> great!
<mdupont> please send me a copy
<dtm> Common Sense With Chrome Trim: How A Bankrupt Truck Driver Used Free Publicity, No-Cost Email Advertising and Affiliate Programs To Build A Six-Figure Internet Marketing Income
<dtm> by George McKenzie (Audio Cassette - July 2003) 
Action: dtm puts mdupont on his mailing list
<chillywilly> you never drank 50/50 before?
<dtm> chillywilly: negative
<dtm> i miss Moxie too.  mdupont you got any Moxie?
<mdupont> moxie? 
<dtm> wow some of these books are $100+
<dtm> mdupont: dewd it's an east coast cult favorite!  it's a carbonated tonic
<mdupont> i left the east coast 10 years ago dewd
<dtm> u r not h4rd c0r3 n3w 3ngl4nd '4' 'lyf3'  ?
<dtm> mdupont: oh i thought you were in new jersey
<mdupont> i am from joisey, i live in frankfurt germany
<chillywilly> he's in europe
<mdupont> i am an expat
<chillywilly> bah, so how come you don't hook up with the Hurd guys?
<mdupont> i have been thinking about htat
<chillywilly> Marcus Brinkmann, et. al.
<mdupont> the hurd guy lives around the corner from me
<chillywilly> "THE" Hurd guy?
<chillywilly> there's more than one
<mdupont> well one of them
<dtm> "here's somethin for your ear hole"   "we got tha bass drum kick that will BLOW OUR YOUR EYES"
<dtm> hehe
<chillywilly> bleh
<dtm> ooo i just felt the mild flood in my head and the tingling in my face.  i think the Benadryl's starting to kick in.
<dtm> i swigged the remainder of the bottle before i came down here, so i could get more rest :)
<dtm> takes so long to affect me
<dtm> fyi you guys, netlibrary.com totally rocks and you shoudl see if your public library subscribes to it
<dtm> you instantly get thousands of books online
<dtm> viewable with a PDF plugin
<dtm> some with just html
<dtm> chillywilly: here's a book for you
<dtm> Super Service : Seven Keys to Delivering Great Customer Service Even When You Don't Feel Like It : Even When They Don't Deserve It
<dtm> by Gee, Jeff.; Gee, Val.
<dtm> chillywilly: what are you up to this weekend?
Action: dtm hax0r Petra
<dtm> mind/body latency.... increasing exponetially...
<mdupont> dtm: maybe you need some sleep?
<chillywilly> nothin'
<chillywilly> spend time with family
<chillywilly> weekends is family time
<chillywilly> mon frair
<dtm> mdupont: definately
<chillywilly> sleep?!?
<chillywilly> wassat?!?
<dtm> it's coming for me like a freight train
<dtm> l8r guys
<dtm> netlibrary.com roooooolzzZZZzzZzzzzz....
Action: chillywilly looks at it
<chillywilly> how do you get access to the books?
mouns (mouns@kali.mouns.org) joined #gnuenterprise.
<chillywilly> nevermind
lupo__ (lupo@p5085F35C.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.164.179) left irc: "Client exiting"
dtm (~dtm@r1.txwifi.com) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
dtm (~dtm@r1.txwifi.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> cvs should work now again for all tools
<mdupont> dtm: you still awake?
ToyMan (~stuq@user-0cevdks.cable.mindspring.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.94.83.191) joined #gnuenterprise.
jbailey (~jbailey@CPE0060082df811-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jbailey> reinhard: There?
<reinhard> yes
<jbailey> I was off at a wedding yesterday, so I didn't try the new common stuff you suggested.
<jbailey> Should I just cvsup it and then do it and appserver?
<jbailey> Did we ever decide what should happen for version numbers?
<reinhard> cvs up and repackage should work now
<reinhard> i would propose to do 0.5.1.99-20031004
<reinhard> and for real release 0.5.2
<reinhard> however i would not expect CVS to go in debian in future
<reinhard> so i don't mind anyway
<jbailey> Is appserver at a state where you'd want it in 'stable'?
<jbailey> Or should it just hang out in unstable/experimental for a while?
<jbailey> New version specified (0.5.1.99.20031004) is less than
<jbailey> the current version number (0.5.1.20031001)!
<jbailey> Blech.
<jbailey> I'll do the .99 after 0.5.2 comes out. =)
<jbailey> cd . && /usr/bin/python setup.py install --root=/home/jbailey/Programming/cvstree/gnue-all/gnue-appserver/debian/gnue-appserver --no-compile -O0
<jbailey> usage: setup.py [global_opts] cmd1 [cmd1_opts] [cmd2 [cmd2_opts] ...]
<jbailey>    or: setup.py --help [cmd1 cmd2 ...]
<jbailey>    or: setup.py --help-commands
<jbailey>    or: setup.py cmd --help
<jbailey>  
<jbailey> error: option -O not recognized
<reinhard> what is -O?
<jbailey> Optimise - I think it's a standard distutils option.
<jbailey> Tells it not to build .pyo files.
<reinhard> ah just a second
<reinhard> first --no-compile renders -O irrelevant
<reinhard> as -O refers to the compiling
<jbailey> Okay - I'll mention to Colin - He wrote the cdbs module for this.
<reinhard> but then
<reinhard> it should work nevertheless
<jbailey> It does in -common.
<reinhard> just a minute
btami (~btami@ngprs.pannongsm.hu) joined #gnuenterprise.
<reinhard> jbailey: ok fixed it
<reinhard> please cvs up gnue-common
<jbailey> -common?!?
<jbailey> 'kay. =)
<jbailey> Good thing I didn't upload. =)
<reinhard> yes
<jbailey> I'll figure out how to make these non-native packages eventually.
<jbailey> The problem is that the debian directory isn't in the root of the package, and I'm using a symlink to make it work.
<jbailey> But I can't create a symlink with a diff.
<reinhard> gnue-common now contains a basic framework for setup programs that the other packages use
<jbailey> Ah, nice.
<jbailey> So doign this to gnue-* will be easy then?
<reinhard> jbailey: i would be very positive that neither jcater nor jamest object against putting the debian dir back to the root of the package
<reinhard> if it makes it easier for you
<reinhard> yes, gnue-* will probably be packable like appserver by the end of this weekend
<jbailey> It would make it much easier.
<reinhard> just ask jamest/jcater if you meet them
<jbailey> Wow.
<jbailey> Neither of them here.
<jbailey> Hmm.  I should build-dep on -common then, too.
<jbailey> copying build/scripts-2.3/gnue-appserver -> /home/jbailey/Programming/cvstree/gnue-all/gnue-appserver/debian/gnue-appserver/usr/bin
<jbailey> changing mode of /home/jbailey/Programming/cvstree/gnue-all/gnue-appserver/debian/gnue-appserver/usr/bin/gnue-appserver to 755
<jbailey> Traceback (most recent call last):
<jbailey>   File "/home/jbailey/Programming/cvstree/gnue-all/gnue-appserver/debian/gnue-appserver/usr/bin/gnue-appserver", line 42, in ?
<jbailey>     from gnue.appserver import geasRpcServer
<jbailey> ImportError: No module named appserver
<jbailey> building man page for gnue-appserver
<jbailey> running install_data
<jbailey> The traceback didn't stop it though.
<jbailey> And the install finished..  w00t!
<jbailey> How do I test appserver?
<reinhard> yes build-dep on gnue-common
<reinhard> jbailey: generation of the man page failed
<reinhard> probably because you used --root
<reinhard> do you have a database installed? (postgres, mysql...)?
<jbailey> mysql 4
<reinhard> do you have a /usr/share/doc/gnue-appserver/samples/README ?
<jbailey> And I have a test database with no tables in it. =)
<jbailey> Yup!
<reinhard> you should be able to follow the instructions
<jbailey> Luvly, just a sec.
<jbailey> Oh hmm..
<jbailey> It gzip's a bunch of the stuff in there.
<jbailey> I wonder if I should exclude that later.
<jbailey> I'll ignore it for now.
<reinhard> possibly
<jbailey> Hmm.
<jbailey> It doesn't seem to like a blank password.
<jbailey> Silly program.
tamas (~btami@ngprs.pannongsm.hu) joined #gnuenterprise.
<jbailey> (meaning mysql, it's obviously not appserver)
Action: reinhard never tried it with mysql, only with postgres
<reinhard> i think you can configure mysql to accept empty passwords
<reinhard> maybe
<reinhard> not sure
Action: tamas tried it with firebird only
<reinhard> hi tamas
<tamas> hi reinhard, jbailey
dneighbo (~dneighbo@ip68-109-180-32.ph.ph.cox.net) left irc: Connection timed out
dneighbo (~dneighbo@ip68-109-180-32.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
Action: tamas is fighting with mcmillan hiddenimports now
btami (~btami@ngprs.pannongsm.hu) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
Nick change: tamas -> btami
<reinhard> brb
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-eat
<jbailey> mysql -p < mysql.sql
<jbailey> Shouldn't this be mysql gnue -p ?
Nick change: rm-eat -> reinhard
<reinhard> dunno
<reinhard> this script was contributed by i-don't-remember-offhand-who-it-was
<jbailey> It wants connections.conf and all that.  I haven't thought that far.
<jbailey> It also suggests trying something with forms, which of course I don't have.
<jbailey> But it general, it loads and doesn't traceback, so I assume it's all good.
<jbailey> Should I worry about the filed manpage generation at all?
<reinhard> well
<reinhard> i think it's against debian rules to have no manpage for something in /usr/bin
<jbailey> It is, but I can ignore people on that for a little while.
<reinhard> would it be against debian guidelines to generate the manpage in postinst?
<jbailey> Erm...
<jbailey> I don't know.
<jbailey> I've never heard of that. =)
<reinhard> you just would have to cd /usr/share/man/man1 && gnue-appserver --generate-manpage
<reinhard> the problem is that we have generated manpages and that gnue-appserver is not functional at any point in package building
<jbailey> Hmm.
<reinhard> however
<jbailey> I could just distribute it separately, too.
<jbailey> Nothing wrong with that.
<reinhard> i think at some point we will include manpages in cvs
<reinhard> and install /usr/share/man normally like /usr/share/doc
<reinhard> so i'd propose you ignore it for now
<reinhard> if i have time left i'll fix it tomorrow
dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.94.83.191) left irc: "Client exiting"
<jbailey> 'kay.  I'm not worried about it for now.
<reinhard> if you upload today
<reinhard> i can test install on a fresh sid machine tomorrow and try appserver
<jbailey> Appserver will probably take a week to get into the archive.
<jbailey> It'll have to be approved by the ftp masters.
<jbailey> I can provide you the .deb though.
<reinhard> reihard@gnue.org
<reinhard> oops
<reinhard> reinhard@gnue.org
<jbailey> Hey - we're on version 0.0.4 of appserver, right?
<jbailey> Geas was versoin 0.0.6 int he archive.
<reinhard> possible, yes
<reinhard> but gnue-appserver is another package than geas
<jbailey> Should I conflicts: replaces: it?
<reinhard> so this shouldn't be a problem, shoud it
<reinhard> =
<reinhard> ah
<reinhard> hmm
<reinhard> yes
<jbailey> 'kay.
<jbailey> I'll ask for formal permission from the previous maintainer then.
<jbailey> I'll have to do that when I get email again.
<jbailey> In the meantime, I'll upload common, and email you the .deb
<reinhard> excellent
<reinhard> jbailey: thanks a lot
<reinhard> i promise that any bug report of gnue-appserver you report upstream will be fixed ASAP :-)
<jbailey> *lol* That'll be good.
<jbailey> At least it's less likely that I'll have Derek reporting upstream bugsin the BTS for appserver. =)
<jbailey> So, on Monday should I try forms, designer, and reports?
<jbailey> (I'm just sending you the appserver deb.  You should be able to find the -common deb on incoming.debian.org in about 20 minutes)
<jbailey> Or at your nearest archive in about 3 hours. =)
<reinhard> jbailey: i'll inform you when forms and designer are ready to go
<reinhard> i don't actually know about reports becuase it should _actually_ depend on pysablot
<reinhard> which seems to be not in sid at all yet
<reinhard> well i'll do the setup.py anyway for all 3 of them
<btami> reinhard: why reports depend on pysablot?
<reinhard> not sure
<reinhard> but i couldn't get any output format to work without pysablot
<btami> it work without it, with tabulator filter
<btami> works
<btami> it's an xslt-less filter 
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> then it would be ok
<reinhard> jbailey: ah, yes, and: yes, i want gnue-appserver to make it into sarge
<reinhard> we might consider more detailed debian packages at some point in the future
<reinhard> gnue-common-postgresql
<reinhard> gnue-common-mysql
<reinhard> gnue-reports-tabulator
<reinhard> gnue-reports-pdf
<reinhard> gnue-reports-html
<reinhard> like IIRC we have gnue-forms-wxgtk now already
<jbailey> Sounds lovely, but I'd like to do that after Sarge releases.
<jbailey> We're heading towards a freeze now, so I don't want to change too much, since I've got glibc headaches to deal with.
<reinhard> jbailey: agree 100%
<reinhard> therefore i said "at some point in the future" :)
<reinhard> btw got the .deb thanks
<jbailey> Cool.
<jbailey> Does it work?
<jbailey> =)
<reinhard> i'll tell you tomorrow
<jbailey> 'kay.
<jbailey> It should be no problem getting maintainership transfered to me, since this is now all kept in upstream cvs, and the rules file is hella-easy.
<reinhard> you haven't committed the rules file for gnue-appserver AFAICT
<reinhard> as the main maintainer for appserver i herewith give you the permission to create the debian directory in the root project dir :)
<jbailey> Yes'sir I did. =)
<jbailey> Lovely.  I'll wait until jcater/jamest agree too, so that it's consistant everywhere.
<btami> btw. reinhard: we have a libxslt general  filter too by siesel
<reinhard> i really need to look at reports more closely
<jbailey> reinhard: The rules file really is only 3 lines long now. =)
<reinhard> no kidding i did my first report today
<reinhard> what is the "compat" file for?
<reinhard> (just to be curious)
<jbailey> I want to learn reports more.
<jbailey> I'd also like to spend a bit of time hacking it, but I don't anticipate the free time to do so anytime soon.
<jbailey> compat tells it what version of debhelper compatability to use.
<reinhard> ah ok
<jbailey> `man debhelper' will tell you what the different levels do
<jbailey> It used to be specified in an environment variable, but that made it hard to consistantly test from the command line.
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> where did you take the Description in "control" from?
<jbailey> The old `geas' package.
<jbailey> You're welcome to fix it. =)
<reinhard> ok I'll do
<reinhard> i'd have some build-depends that you didn't mention
<reinhard> i'm not sure if they are standard anyway
<reinhard> * makeinfo
<jbailey> Nope, texinfo isn't standard.
<jbailey> Do you want to add them, or do you want me to?
<reinhard> I don't know the correct package name
<reinhard> well hold it
<reinhard> sablotron, makeinfo and the others i'm thinking about now
<reinhard> are only required when packaging from cvs
<reinhard> when you package from a released tarball the files generated with those tools are already contained
<jbailey> Better to just include them anyway then.
<reinhard> so we shouldn't have them in build-depends i guess
<reinhard> you think?
<jbailey> I can always note in the README.Debian that those are included in case of a CVS build.
<jbailey> Well, pretty consistantly release versions have had bugs that made it hard to package.
<jbailey> We can either do CVS snaps in those cases, or patches.
<jbailey> Patches would mean that the version in the archive wasn't exactly what was upstream - not horrible, but annoying.
<jbailey> The other thought is that we could talk j* into working off of branches.
<reinhard> we should make prereleases to test packaging before we do releases
<reinhard> like we do now actually
<jbailey> It might not be a problem at all anymore.
<jbailey> Now that it's one command to test the packaging.
<jbailey> "debuild"
<reinhard> there is another requirement to package appserver from cvs
<reinhard> you have to have gnue-common's source tree installed beside gnue-appserver's source tree
<jbailey> *blink*
<jbailey> Really?
<reinhard> yes
<jbailey> That's a little weird.
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> i'd really like to *not* officially support cvs packaging
<jbailey> Fair 'nuff.
<reinhard> we use scripts from the gnue-common/utils directory
<reinhard> that are only targeted at developers and not even installed
<jbailey> Welll.....
<jbailey> For the most part, users of common might *be* developers, though.
<reinhard> but all this is only used if you download cvs
<jbailey> Like if someone wanted to make an app that used common, shouldn't those scripts be available?
<reinhard> for the most part, users of common are users that need it because they use forms, reports or appserver
<jbailey> Sure, but that's limiting.
<reinhard> well
[13:33] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<jbailey> Derek and Jamest both talk about how something are easier if you just use common.
<reinhard> actually i agree with you
<jbailey> And if all it means is installing some scripts in /usr/share/gnue/gnue-common, then why not?
ToyMan (~stuq@user-0cevdks.cable.mindspring.com) left irc: "Client Exiting"
<reinhard> i made a note and will talk with j* about it
<jbailey> Thanks.
<jbailey> Yuo might also note that it means that appserver might not have to chase gnue-common CVS, so you have a more stable development platform.
<jbailey> Like, they can get experimental with it and you don't have to worry.
<reinhard> yes
<jbailey> You can always do test builds, install that.  Revert, etc.
<reinhard> ok in that case i propose that you include makeinfo in build-depends
<reinhard> i'll just commit the new description
<jbailey> Thanks.  Lemme know when you're done so we don't conflict.
<jbailey> (stupid CVS)
<reinhard> done
<nickr> cvs is annoying.
<nickr> subvesion!
Nick change: btami -> btami_away
<jbailey> Just makeinfo?
<jbailey> Or sabltotron too?
<reinhard> sablotron is ok
<reinhard> it's also only needed in case of cvs
<reinhard> to build from cvs we need
<reinhard> * makeinfo
<reinhard> * sablotron
<reinhard> * gnue-common (currently in source, but we will change that)
<reinhard> to build from release we only need gnue-common and python-dev
<reinhard> runtime dependencies are:
<reinhard> * gnue-common
<reinhard> * python2.3-xml
<jbailey> Committed.
<jbailey> We'll see how it goes later, then.
<reinhard> sorry i think we missed the Depends: python2.3-xml
<reinhard> brb changing computer
reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "I haven't lost my mind. I know exactly where I left it."
reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
<reinhard> back
<jbailey> I've added the python2.3-xml
<jbailey> I'm gonna go out for a walk pretty soon - I need to pickup some shoes, groceries, etc.
<jbailey> Is there anything you need from me before that?
<reinhard> jbailey: i'm happy for today :)
<reinhard> thank you and have a nice walk
<jbailey> Good!  And thanks again for doing this.  This is solving all of the packaging problems nicely.
Action: chillywilly smacks every a good afternoon with a large slimy trout
Action: reinhard thinks it's the moral duty of every program author to support debian packaging as well as he can :)
<reinhard> hey chillywilly
<reinhard> why is there always a smell of fish in the air when you're around?
Action: jbailey whispers to reinhard: "Yeast infection"
<jbailey> 'bye!
jbailey (~jbailey@CPE0060082df811-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: "Client exiting"
R45 (~rastabeen@cuscon3194.tstt.net.tt) joined #gnuenterprise.
ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
stuq_ (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
stuq_ (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: Client Quit
mouns (mouns@kali.mouns.org) left irc: Remote closed the connection
mdupont (mdupont@p5080E4B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
mdupont (mdupont@p5080E1AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #gnuenterprise.
jcater (~jcater@66.61.71.147) joined #gnuenterprise.
R45 (~rastabeen@cuscon3194.tstt.net.tt) left irc: 
R45 (~rastabeen@cuscon3194.tstt.net.tt) joined #gnuenterprise.
<reinhard> night all
reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "There's always one more imbecile than you expect."
btami_away (~btami@ngprs.pannongsm.hu) left irc: "'gnight"
reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise.
Nick change: ToyMan -> Mystique
Nick change: Mystique -> toyman
Nick change: toyman -> ToyMan
reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Anything is good and useful if it's made of chocolate."
ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: Excess Flood
ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise.
<Vee2d2> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43989&item=2435629960 heh
ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection
<nickr> remember what the doormouse said
<dneighbo> nickr: do you know of a shn player (converter) for debian
<dneighbo> im seeing lots of flac stuff but no shorten stuff.. (/me prefers flac, but its not heavily traded yet)
<nickr> joo warez dood
<nickr> I'm suprised that xmms doesnr't have a shn plugin
<dneighbo> i found it
<dneighbo> deb http://mentors.debian.net/debian unstable main contrib non-free 
<dneighbo> apt-get.org is my friend
<dneighbo> shntools, shorten and xmms-shn
<nickr> yea
<dneighbo> unfortunately #debian is still useless (or almost useless) and rude to boot
Action: dneighbo found on own with apt-get.org, but was wondering if someone had more definitive quick answer...
<dneighbo> for some reason i was thinking you traded lots of live music
<dneighbo> but maybe it was just the photo stuff you are big into? (i.e. good resource for) ;)
<nickr> how do you mean?
<nickr> I mustly only rip my own music
Action: dneighbo has a coworker that trades lots of live music
<dneighbo> i.e. live concert recordings
<nickr> I understand what you mean.
<dneighbo> there is a pretty large community of traders of legal music (i.e. the bands give permission)
<dneighbo> FINALLY they started using bittorrent
<dneighbo> so figured i would give it a whirl and yanked two shows
<dneighbo> but then couldnt find shn stuff to listen to them :)
Action: dneighbo is all good now :)
<nickr> Its ironic to use a losless format for live recordings
<nickr> what did you mean about the photo stuff?
<dneighbo> nickr: i tend to agree relossless thing....
<dneighbo> photo stuff you are one that gave me all good tips on getting camera working :)
<nickr> Oh
<nickr> Yea
<nickr> I wish I could get live shooting working on my camear
<nickr> camera
<nickr> I will skirt the driver issue by buying the new pro Nikon with the builtin 802.11
<nickr> too bad its 3grandb
<nickr> envmaps in blender are painfully slow
<chillywilly> dneighbo: they haven't got on and switched to flac yet?
<chillywilly> flac does 24-bit audio
<chillywilly> dewd
<chillywilly> it rox
<nickr> thats psychotic to use for live recordings.
<chillywilly> they are psychotic
<nickr> You can *hear* the wir of the the recorder, man, incredible fidelity!
<chillywilly> "loess-less" or diea
<chillywilly> die
<chillywilly> bleh
<chillywilly> typing sucks
<nickr> speaking of music, I like Collide a lot.
<nickr> speaking of music
<nickr> http://nick.industrialmeats.com/proj/art/weekend_challenge/69/music.jpg
<nickr> aw yea
<chillywilly> wth is that?
<chillywilly> 3D music?
<chillywilly> ;P
<nickr> ~essentially ;)
<nickr> what do YOU think?
<chillywilly> nifty
<chillywilly> looks like it's coming out of some horn or somethin'
<nickr> it looks like a horn?
<nickr> grr
<chillywilly> oh
<chillywilly> it's a speaker
<chillywilly> it has depth to it...almost looks like a tunnel
<nickr> huh
<nickr> thats the ripples in the membrane
<chillywilly> well yea I just figured that but it fooled my eyes
<chillywilly> can't help my eye balls perception of things
<nickr> your eyes are dumb
<nickr> :)
<nickr> No I see what you mean actually
<chillywilly> lick me
<nickr> I'm not sure how to uh, make it more speaker like
<nickr> appearently accurately modelling a speaker is not enough
<nickr> do you get the thing in the top corner?
<nickr> left
<chillywilly> nope
<nickr> heh, DON'T REST!
<chillywilly> a rest?
<nickr> just like the first law of rockin'
<chillywilly> I see
<chillywilly> for me rest == spot for me to play some mad lick ;)
<nickr> heh, in the latest version I pretentiously signed it japanesey too
<chillywilly> rest == singers shutup and let us rock ;)
<nickr> there, reload :)
<nickr> ahh
<nickr> I win this week!
<nickr> muaha
<chillywilly> that's your signature?
<nickr> yea
<nickr> ni ku
<chillywilly> ok
<nickr> I'm diggin blender lately
<chillywilly> if you say so
<nickr> what?
<chillywilly> why?
<nickr> you badmouthin' it?
<chillywilly> who?
<chillywilly> where?
<chillywilly> when?
<chillywilly> how?
<nickr> blenders in ur base killin ur dudes!
<chillywilly> was the code freed?
<nickr> yes, years ago
<chillywilly> there was some contest to do that wasn't there?
<chillywilly> years?
<nickr> 'contest'?
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> if they were to collect so much money or somehting they would release it
<chillywilly> something
<chillywilly> I don't remember
<nickr> no, basically the user community bought it from the company
<nickr> the company gave the community a good deal on it, too
<chillywilly> I think that's what I said but not in so many words
<nickr> Well, you implied that it was the company doing the collecting
<nickr> in fact a community organization did it
<chillywilly> free blender project or some crap
<nickr> yea
<nickr> now its thrivey
<nickr> many advancements
<chillywilly> bah mofos
<chillywilly> nm
<nickr> what?
<chillywilly> wrong winder
<dneighbo> http://nick.industrialmeats.com/proj/art/galan-logo/galan-header-test.png kicks butt
<nickr> dneighbo: Thankya
<nickr> thats a logo for the galan project
<chillywilly> I don't get it
<nickr> galan.sf.net
<nickr> it makes more sense in the context of the project :)
<chillywilly> ah
<nickr> because, man, its like a COLONY of ANTS that move NOTES around, man
<nickr> far out
<chillywilly> ok...
<nickr> it'd be kind of cool to have a modular synth like that, actually
<nickr> based on celular automata
<chillywilly> I need to design a nice web site...I should get some artsy fartsy person to come up with some concept for me
<nickr> I wouldn't know anyone like that.
<chillywilly> I know some people
<chillywilly> havoc's website is nice but it needs some content
<nickr> havoc?
<nickr> pendington?
<chillywilly> havoc: <-- that guy
<chillywilly> no
<nickr> oh
<chillywilly> Jon Chaillet
<nickr> mmm, the challait has the best pie
<nickr> speaking of pie
<nickr> 2 hours ago
<nickr> I am starving
<chillywilly> heh
R45 (~rastabeen@cuscon3194.tstt.net.tt) left #gnuenterprise.
GNU\R45 (~rastabeen@cuscon3194.tstt.net.tt) joined #gnuenterprise.
Nick change: GNU\R45 -> R45
--- Sun Oct  5 2003