<dtm> I admonish you to hack!
Action: ajmitch still has on his list of delusions to hack together gnue & dotgnu
<dtm> :-o
<dtm> good ol ajmitch 
<dtm> you go, bwoi
<ajmitch> :P
<Vee> by the time I'm ready to pursue that task, I'll gawk and gander at IC..
Action: Vee scribbles some fine print into his todo list
<dtm> Vee: You'll do more than that, by Grepthar's Hammer!
<dtm> Vee: You'll be the best they've ever seeeeeennnn......
<dtm> Vee: I'll make you the *best*!
Action: Vee looks for the redhat labs sticker on dtm
<ajmitch> Vee: it's stuck over the va software tattoo
<Vee> haha
<dtm> :-o
<dtm> VA?!  WHO'S THAT
<ajmitch> your friends :)
<dtm> them's fightin words, son.  ;)
<dtm> h0h0h0
Action: dtm jumps out with six shooters a'blazin'
<dtm> you'll never take me, VA!
<dtm> ajmitch: what are you up to tonight?
<ajmitch> probably gonna hit the books again
<dtm> ajmitch: how long you got til you graduate
<wtg> dtm is interchange targeted at the same market as zope ? and if it is what's interchange got that zope doesn't ??
<dtm> wtg: no.  IC is an ecommerce and CMS engine, primarily ecommerce
<ajmitch> dtm: another year or so :)
<dtm> wtg: and i dont know anything about zope's ecommerce
<dtm> wtg: but IC has been around far longer, has been commercially backed by redhat in the past, and is written in perl
Action: ajmitch shudders at the mention of perl
Action: wtg does too =)
<dtm> the only thing that's relevant to the language it's written in, is how you can interface with the outside world through cpan's archives
<ajmitch> python is the One True Language!
<dtm> okay, dry up plz kthx
<dtm> :)
<wtg> dtm do you know any ecommerce site's running IC that i could look at ?
<Vee> I bet he does
<wtg> =)
<Vee> Join the #interchange channel.  Please note that no unattended IRC clients are allowed. 
<Vee> bleh!
<Vee> blashpemous!
<Vee> http://demo.icdevgroup.org/
<Vee> demo sites
<wtg> yeah ... thanks Vee cruising that now
<dtm> HEY
<dtm> LISTEN HERE
<dtm> dont you ever EVER go to that irc server.  go to my channel here on freelode
<Vee> ;)
<dtm> Vee: it's worse than blasphemy.
<dtm> here's the IC hall of fame -- http://www.icdevgroup.org/i/dev/hall.html?id=Bbknv6fA
<dtm> Vee: you will join #interchange on irc.freenode.net and you will idle.
<dtm> that is what you must do.  for idling on irc is the way of things.
<Vee> that's just a crazy notion to even make a statement like that.. 
<dtm> idling is zen!
<Vee> rsync is so sweet
<dtm> you must first become the knowledge which you wish to acquire.
<dtm> Vee: yes it is
<dtm> <rsync> oh *you're* sweet, Vee!   *tee hee*
<Vee> cool.. think I've derived a solution for fixing our cvs server..
Action: Vee goes to bed
<dtm> Vee: heck yeah.
<dtm> take care, mister
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<mdupont> dtm:  i got a good overview of the app server yesterday from reinhard
<dtm> mdupont: how nice
<dtm> ttyl
<mdupont> ok
<mdupont> later
<mdupont> basically he said you need a way to load python methods in from the database
<mdupont> and attach them to objects from the database
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<siesel> morning
<btami> hello siesel,dimas
<siesel> hi btami
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Action: siesel likes #commit
<btami> :)
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<ajmitch> hey jeff
<jbailey> Heya Andrew.
<jbailey> What time is it there?  I'm wondering if Aussie developers will be awake right now.
<ajmitch> quite possibly
<ajmitch> it's 2am here
<jbailey> Unlikely in this case, he has a day job.
<ajmitch> just about midnight in most eastern australian states
<ajmitch> ah
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<dcmwai> Vee, You there?
<dcmwai> free :)
<dcmwai> Hum.. have to go see you .. :(
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<siesel> hi
<mdupont> hi siesel
<mdupont> Alles klar?
<siesel> klar :)
<siesel> how was the LWE?
Action: siesel writes german-english
<mdupont> Not bad
<mdupont> I took the FSFE guys to indian food
<mdupont> got drunk with rheinhard
<mdupont> got drunk with reinhard
<siesel> What a pity I couldn't come.
<siesel> Reinhard is still there, right?
<mdupont> yes
<mdupont> i wanted to talk to you about supporting methods in the app server
<mdupont> i have some ideas from my discussion with r. but wanted to talk to you first
<siesel> so what are you're ideas?
<siesel> I had implemented some stuff in the _featuretest directory, and it's possible to copy some stuff around.
<mdupont> well he said he wants to connect objects from the database with methods
<mdupont> so, I was saying, we take the existing class and memberdefs
<mdupont> and add in methoddefs into that framework
<mdupont> with a caching system to attach compiled python code to the methoddef in memory
<siesel> yes. thats the way to go.
<siesel> The question is how to implement the namespace and the methods itself
<mdupont> so, that way the updates to the method will go via the app server and that can check if anyone has it loaded
<mdupont> and if it compiles
<siesel> If we can use the trigger code in gnue-common as basis or if we have to our own thing
<mdupont> the namespace? you must have that handled already for the classdefs
<mdupont> and the methods themselves? each one will be subclassed from a base class
<mdupont> and be able to bind to an row object
<mdupont> and execute
<siesel> there has to be a proxy layer between the classdef and the method execution
<siesel> some proxy objects which are the namespace for the object.
<siesel> I thought of building a virtual business class object, which provides an environment for the method itself, which is easy to understand and implement
<siesel> did you have a look at the code in gnue-appserver/src/_featuretest?
<mdupont> so
<mdupont> you have a classdef object
<mdupont> and a business object (instance of customer in memory)
<mdupont> the customer has a type-id that is dereferenced to a classdef object in memory
Action: siesel is listening
<mdupont> my idea is to have an unique id for each class
<mdupont> that could be an uri
<mdupont> the classes are registered
<mdupont> and objects are attached to them
Action: mdupont gets the latest cvs
<siesel> So you mean using an URI instead of the classname we have now.
<mdupont> well, i dont know what we have now
<mdupont> :(
<siesel> now the client ask for a list of objects of a class by providing a classname like 'address_person' 
<siesel> where the 'address' part is the name of the module.
<siesel> appserver fetchs the classdef for this name and builds loads the objects out of the database
<mdupont> ok
<mdupont> then it can attach the object to a behaviour object
<mdupont> the behaviour object is bound to the real object
<mdupont> with a linker
<mdupont> so the linker dereferences the variables needed by the method
<siesel> pardon. what do you mean with behaviour object?
<mdupont> i mean a set of methods compiled
<mdupont> that can deal with object build from the database
<mdupont> basically a python class 
<siesel> ok, so its a kind of "base" class which is used by the "object factory" which builds objects out of database data 
<mdupont> so you have a set of methods that are read out of a storage(db) 
<mdupont> well yes
<mdupont> the object factory attaches a loaded behaviour to a new object
<mdupont> and then binds them
<mdupont> you have then a specific behaviour instance for that one object
<mdupont> it could be very small
<mdupont> i hope that we dont need to have a specific object per instance
<mdupont> but only one behaviour object per factory/classdef
<siesel> This is possible as the behaviour object can be a python class which an be instanciated / bound
<siesel> Since python2.2 this is very comfortable, but I think python2.1 provide this functionalty too.
<siesel> That is also something to discuss, as its possible to directly create specific Instance objects and not use the generic instance objects we have now.
<siesel> Or keep using the generic Instance objects and simulate multiple objects and bindings through one behaviour / class object with a tricky namespace
<mdupont> ok
<mdupont> you have a generic instance object, one for all db instances
<mdupont> ?
<siesel> yes, all classes uses the "geasInstance" object at the moment. 
<siesel> attributes are accessed via set(name, value) amd get(name) methods at the moment
<siesel> using a specific object instead could ease some type checks and add advanced validation options
<siesel> but that wasn't an option in the beginning, as we didn't have a class repository then.
<mdupont> ok
<mdupont> well, I am looking into j2ee right now
<mdupont> and corba
<mdupont> i have been building a type repository for the gcc
<mdupont> that is going very well
<siesel> great.
<siesel> I've been diving into j2ee too.
<siesel> There is a good summary about the thing j2ee has archived in the last years, its pro's and con's in Java Magazin 11/03
<mdupont> ok
<mdupont> so i would like to model the classes and methods as first level business objects
<siesel> But I think that appserver is heading a different direction than j2ee.
<mdupont>  and be able to use the existing gnue to edit and maintain them
<mdupont> we dont need to copy java
<mdupont> just think about the good stuff
<siesel> yes. meine Worte :)
Action: mdupont is happy
<mdupont> i just got the corba files to compile with gcj
<dtm> yay
<siesel> that's cool.
<siesel> with different direction I mean "No object modell" "No class based inheritance" 
<siesel> but modules based "business object" enhancement/modification 
<siesel> Its a totally new approach and we have to see if its good or bad :)
<mdupont> hmm
<mdupont> i dont get it
<mdupont> no object model?
<mdupont> no inheritance i can understand (out of lazyness)
<siesel> Reinhard can explain this approach better, as its his idea I think
<mdupont> hmm
<mdupont> well, you want to have methods?
<siesel> IMHO it means a layer modell. You have a base layer and can put layers on it and every layer adds attributes to classes
<mdupont> hmm
<siesel> yes, but we call it "procedures"
<mdupont> ok
<siesel> f.e. you have a base module with a customer class.
<siesel> if you add the "barber" module the customer class will be enhanced by a 'hair style' attribute
<siesel> It could be very good for some real world senarios, but its not fully tested :(
<siesel> I think reinhard has writen something about it in the appserver whitepaper
<mdupont> ok
Action: mdupont gets a phone call
<mdupont> bbiab
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<jamest> hello 
<jcater> Hello, hello
<jcater> I don't know why you say goodbye, I say hello
<jcater> Hello, hello
<jcater> I don't know why you say goodbye, I say hello
<jcater> err, oh
<jcater> hellow
<jcater> s/w/
Action: jamest beats jcater with a greatest hits of like the 70s or something
<chillywi1ly> heh
<chillywi1ly> Beetles have some goods songs d00d
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<jamest> welcome back
<jcater> thx
Action: jamest waits for the theme song to that 70s smash tv hit
<jamest> welcome back cater
<jcater> Welcome back, Your dreams were your ticket out. Welcome back, To that same old place that you laughed about.
<jcater> Well, the names have all changed since you hung around, But those dreams have remained and they've turned around.
<jamest> well the code has all changed since since you hung around
<jamest> but the bugs have remained and they've grown abound(?)
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<alandd> still up, dneighbo_?
<alandd> g'night
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--- Thu Oct 30 2003