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<siesel>  morning
<reinhard> morning
<reinhard> (alsways depends on when you got up ;-))
<siesel> :)
Action: siesel went to a party yesterday, i.e. moring = normal morning + 5 h 
<reinhard> family time
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<siesel> hi btami
<btami> hello siesel
<dtm> hi
<siesel> hi dtm
<dtm> siesel: what's up
Action: siesel 's working on appserver procedure support
<dtm> siesel: yeah i saw you've been kickin it appserver style
<dtm> siesel: good job, son
<dtm> siesel: i dont undersatnd your docs, but they look good :)
<siesel> docs?
<siesel> did I ever write docs?
<dtm> siesel: yeah your roadmap..
<dtm> s/.././
<siesel> ok,
<siesel> just send me a mail with questions, then I'll make it more verbose
<dtm> siesel: no need.  im not a software engineer.
<dtm> wont make any difference at this point!  :)
<dtm> thanks, though.
<siesel> so you concentrate on the packages?
<dtm> siesel: no, i have never used gnue except for DCL.  i concentrate on things that surround GNUe and on community
<siesel> ok, I remember, you're working on DCL
<dtm> siesel: yeah i did the DCL roadmap and introduced the DCL and gnue developers 
<siesel> cool
<dtm> most of my work has been totally fruitless because it involves organizing and motivating volunteer engineers :)
<dtm> and trying to align business interests, with no capital :)
<siesel> btw. is there a way to stop spam getting BUG numbers in DCL?
<dtm> but, that's how it goes.
<dtm> siesel: i'd guess shut off the email gateway, since there's no reason for having it
<siesel> yeah, you say it. Life is hard. One of the hardest.
<dtm> entrepreneurial life is hard!  :)
<dtm> it would be easier to put my head down and STOP THINKING.... except that's impossible  :)
<siesel> lol
<dtm> or have a whitelist or a spam filter
<siesel> yes, gnue needs that.
<siesel> Nowadays we have an autocreated roadmap. I would like to have an autocreated buglist too,
<dtm> oh really
<dtm> heheh
<dtm> do you have a TalkBack feature?  :)
<siesel> Like a bug report created by dcl in another format, or something like that.
<dtm> hm.
<siesel> No, just the email gateway.
<siesel> But talkback would be great. And quite easy to implement.
<dtm> ah.
<dtm> how nice.
Action: siesel thinks of using logged IRC instead of email, something like #gnue-tracebacks
<siesel> or #gnue-doomed ;)
<dtm> :-o
<btami> btw. siesel: my triggers are ok with latest cvs
<siesel> ok, that's nice :)
<btami> but there is an old problem, maybe you can solve
<btami> prequery="Y" doesn't triggers triggers
<btami> especially block level POST-FOCUSIN
<siesel> hmm? prequery imho shouldn't trigger focus triggers.
<siesel> but I know, that some focus trigger are a bit broken
<btami> i don't think so
<btami> doing a query manualy triggers it
<btami> manually=from menu
<siesel> the reason why it is this way could be that we differentiate between record view and the query definition input mode
<siesel> so switching between these could trigger the focus triggers.
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<siesel> using prequery there is no query definition input, so no prefocus is called.
<btami> yes, but this is not correct IMO
<siesel> for what do you need it? Would an post-query trigger be the better solution?
<btami> no, i'm just have some calculated (read only) fields on form
<siesel> btami: yes, it should be trigger for all or for no cases. ( me prefers the last one=
<btami> anyhow, we need some standardization in forms triggers
<btami> and document what trigger does what
<btami> then anyone can complain and send bugreports :)
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<siesel> btami: yes you're right.
<dcmwai> hello siesel :)
<dcmwai> I've got the mysql working now..
<dcmwai> Now is thinking a way to write the grd files...
<siesel> I found out that its quite difficult to change the nowadays form, as prequery is something done by the database layer, i.e. it doesn't raise focus triggers
<siesel> hi dcmwai.
<siesel> cool. 
<dcmwai> siesel, But it seem to be hard if you know what I meant... :(
<btami> hi dcmwai
<siesel> it should be that bad :)
<btami> dcmwai: there is a little wizard in designer for SimpleTabulation
<siesel> just describe which report you want to make and I probably can point you to the best sample to modify.
<dcmwai> For e.g the invoice po .. It get the from the po id, get the vendor id, then from the vendor id get that info from company (where address and etc is located) then get the item number, name and quantity and tec...
<siesel> Or better try btami's advice :)
<dcmwai> s/tec/etc... and the whole things Just become messy...
<dcmwai> btami, hello
<siesel> ok, so you have to do master detail datasources
<dcmwai> master detail datasource..
<dcmwai> woo.. <source> there 
<dcmwai> put multiple entry into it?
<siesel> yes, have a look at samples/cross-tabulation
<dcmwai> will do .. :)
<dcmwai> Not time to bath and change courier-imap
<btami> or the simplest samples/location/zip-by-state.grd
Action: btami is dreaming about a jcater clone finishing universal reports
<dcmwai> is that going to be true?
Action: btami wakes up
<dtm> hey guys, are you familiar with managing inventory and SKUs?
<dtm> if i have a candle with various scents, i need to know how to manage inventory
<dtm> generically speaking
<dtm> my understanding of SKU theory, is that a product line gets a base SKU regardless of cosmetic features like color or scent.  if the base product is otherwise identical.
<dtm> and that an SKU is not meant to handle inventory
<dtm> is that true?
<dtm> or do you have base SKUs and sub SKUs?  like 000001 for all candles, and 000001a for red, 000001b for blue, etc
<dtm> ?
<dcmwai> dtm, I don't know much about SKU but what I found is much different...
<dtm> i just want to know when I need to reorder the blue one!  :)
<dcmwai> SKU should be including color, size and etc attribue
<dtm> dcmwai: oh really?
<dcmwai> and before SKU there is another Product Number ...
<dcmwai> So that Product Number is the Big Pieces, and sll SKU on the same Product is below it.
<dtm> interchange only handles SKU, and then options and accessories.  but the SKU is the only serial number.
<dcmwai> s/sll/all
<dtm> interchange's demo store seems to use the model of 001a, 001b, 001c, etc for similar items such as various sizes of nails.
<dcmwai> what is that?
<dtm> what is what?
<dcmwai> interchange
<dtm> it's an ecommerce platform
<dtm> the best one, that is.
Action: dcmwai is not so sure about it.. 
<dcmwai> have to really got an SKU expert to answer all these question
Action: dtm summon derek 
<dtm> :)
<dtm> i encode my SKUs to include the hierarchy codes too
<dtm> they're about 7 digits long
<btami> i'm not an expert about this area, but read something like
<btami> concatenated field for identifying is a kiss of death
<btami> instead use meaningless long numbers as id
<btami> and use extra fields in your db for extra querying needs
<dtm> btami: ok, why kiss of death?
<dtm> why does that matter as conpared to a random-like number?
<btami> concatenated field is restricted by the length of its peaces
<dtm> btami: how's that?
<btami> let say you use 001a, 001b, 001c
<dtm> btami: btw i only have two levels of hierarchy.
<dtm> oh ok
<btami> but what happens when you have 1000 things_?
<btami> you can code only 999
<dtm> oh, well, that doesn't matter.  then i could still do anything i want.  like add more digits, and modify my SKU algorithm.  or go totally random, or anything in between.  the only intrinsic restriction is that they're all atomically unique.
<btami> if the parts of your SKU has no meaning, then ok
<dtm> no, doesn't matter at all.  as long as my SKUs are unique.
<btami> i see, then you are gold
<dtm> yeah.  i mean, i could rename the SKUs, even.  as long as all algorithms are updated
<dtm> i just dont know how to relate SKU to inventory.
<dtm> for sure.
<dtm> how would i know when to reorder a particular color?
Nick change: btami -> btami_out
<dtm> well, thanks guys, ttyl
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<gsoti> hello dtm
<gsoti> just reading the log, ya around?
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<dcmwai> siesel, how long more you will be around?
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<Vee> dtm: SKU, Stock Keeping Unit, should identify a specific piece of inventory. You could inventory your candles as just 'candles' but it would be a messy system, how would you know what colors you have? Or scents? Or which ones you need to order? There may be another numbering system, beit related to the SKU or not, to identify the inventory in vaguer terms.. I use a catalog# (as I call it) for example, to identify a sh
<Vee> irt without knowing what size or color. I use a concatenated SKU and my catalog# is just the front portion of the sku sans the segments that describe the color & size.. 
<dcmwai> Vee, You are still the expert :)
<Vee> I wouldnt claim that title
<dcmwai> haha :)
<Vee> I'm just familiar with some ways of doing things.
<dcmwai> Yes you always are..
<dcmwai> Vee, it is 9'o clock on your time :) Morning :)
<Vee> 9:30
<Vee> should be close to the same, evening time over there, eh? :)
<dcmwai> -exec -o time
<dcmwai> oop :)
<dcmwai> sh: -c: line 1: syntax error near unexpected token `newline'
<dcmwai> sh: -c: line 1: `time'
<dcmwai> haha :)
<dcmwai> å 11  9 23:34:25 MYT 2003
<dcmwai> ah this is better :)
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<Vee> is your clock set right?
<Vee> ;)
<Vee> I didnt think Malaysia was that much further east than Thailand
<dcmwai> Vee, You know West Malaysia? East Malaysia had adjuest the time according to them and this is same apply to singapour
<Vee> didnt know that.. 
<Vee> I just know most of Thailand is 12hr difference from here
<Vee> I dont know if they do the daylight savings crap, however.. so I could be off an hour pending the season.. heh
<jcater> * btami is dreaming about a jcater clone finishing universal reports
<jcater> funny, I've been having the same dream
<Vee> gotta love those clones
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<thierry_> afternoon all
<siesel> hi thierry
<thierry_> hello siesel
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<gsoti> hello Vee
<Vee> howdy gsoti
<gsoti> on SKU
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<gsoti> I have also seen a single SKU tied to different inventory "numbers" 
<gsoti> So that various vendors can supply the same item.
<Vee> but as you say, it is still the same item
<gsoti> and also be able to track the different item cost by ventdor.
<gsoti> yes,  in theory, on a shelf they would all appear the same.
<gsoti> s/ventdor/vendor
<gsoti> such would be the case with "house brands" vrs name brand items
<gsoti> and then there is always the proverbial exception for every rule
<gsoti> :-)
<Vee> those would be seperate items, where my products are concerned.. 
<gsoti> 'k
<gsoti> sounds like you have a store
<Vee> in the mfg plant I use to work, we had several lines of products which could be sold under an assortment of different things, pending what label was stuck on them when they went out the door.. so we stocked them under a generic sku, and stocked labels each with their own sku.. to satisfy an order, we took 1ea generic and 1ea of whatever label was applicable to the sale and created a 3rd sku which identified the finish
<Vee> ed labeled product.. basically anyway.
<gsoti> yep!
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<gsoti> I used to work for brake products company
<gsoti> they sold to several "brands"
<gsoti> only diff was a last minute label and/or insturction sheets etc.
<Vee> right
<gsoti> before going out door
<gsoti> sorry about double--  i was typing
<gsoti> when you were sending
<gsoti> Vee: you are using GNUe?
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<Vee> gsoti: not right now.. 
<Vee> gsoti: my intentions are to use gnue-sb as it progresses
<gsoti> great! I think long term (> 5 years)  most business going to be
<gsoti> using FSF software.  Already see that trend today in current work.
<gsoti> getting to be thought of more and more in every meeting I attend.
<gsoti> and some production solutions.
<gsoti> short / long -- maybe <3 years,  hard to say.  But cost is big factor today.
<Vee> yea
<gsoti> package solutions maybe on way out due to cost.
<gsoti> package == proprietary software
<gsoti> YEA
<gsoti> package not always easy to work with, have to work around
<gsoti> :-)
<Vee> I hear a lot of ads lately for sap's small/midsized business software on the radio
<gsoti> bet they don't quote cost!
<Vee> course not.. they say "Give us a call.." ;)
<gsoti> that is part of reason SAP and mysql are getting togethor...
<gsoti> ( I hear the pied piper playing now  "Give us a call...")
Action: gsoti but i am not !!
<gsoti> :-)
<gsoti> hehe
<wendall911> Vee: i tried the Debian Testing net install you referenced...it doesn't set things up correctly at all...I'll have to reinstall and build from scratch mostly...:(
<wendall911> Vee: It is a nice installer, but apt screws up Desktop configurations to the point that I cannot even log into failsafe xterm
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<Vee> wendall911: interesting.. which version did you go with? sid?
<wendall911> sarge
<wendall911> Vee: i chose the lazy package selection options
<wendall911> Vee: not good
<wendall911> Vee: it set up everything wrong, to the point that I couldn't get things running without reinstalling all gnome stuff again....i'll just rebuild and not be so lazy this time
<Vee> well, I only played with it upto the partitioning (not far) 
<wendall911> Vee: hardware detection rocks though :)
<Vee> but usually with netinst's I just get a very very very basic system and apt-get everything from there. 
<wendall911> Vee: that's what I need to do...I wanted to try the package selector out though...it isn't working correctly I think
<Vee> I wonder what it is, actually.. aptitude? tasksel? 
<Vee> I should play with it more I guess
Action: Vee goes to finish rewiring his landlines
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<wendall911> anybody around to answer a couple apt-get questions?
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<dsmith> wendall911, I have been known to, on occasion.
<wendall911> dsmith: cool
<dsmith> wendall911, So, whats up?
<wendall911> dsmith: does apt have basic packages available for say xfree86 that I don't have to individually install every single package? Same for gnome.
<dsmith> There are two things
<dsmith> tasks and meta-packages
<dsmith> A meta-package just has depenancies on other packages.
<dsmith> THere are some for gnome and kde
<wendall911> dsmith: I installed xfree86-server and xfree fonts, but there is no startx...plus I installed gdm...it is kinda strange package manager...practically worthless if I have to tell it every package along the way
<dsmith> wendall911, It's a *good* thing to have fine-grained packages
<wendall911> dsmith: agreed
<dsmith> Somitmes you don't want a bunch of extra stuff
<dsmith> There is also the tasks stuff.  I don't remember how to use it.
<wendall911> dsmith: but the absence of a metapackage that has the main components for getting xfree or gnome up and running is necessary imo
<wendall911> dsmith; cool, i'll look up tasks
<dsmith> Try apt-cache search gnome
<dsmith> THere is a gnome meta-package, iirc
<wendall911> dsmith: i did that, it was not available in testing for some reason
<dsmith> wendall911, apt-cache search task (or maybe tasksel)
<dsmith> Then apt-cache show <whatever-looked-intresting>
<wendall911> dsmith: i used tasksel, it is crap, now reinstalling
<dsmith> istr a gnome-desktop package
<wendall911> dsmith: in #debian now, someone is giving some shortcuts :)
<dsmith> Good
<wendall911> dsmith: there isn't a gnome-desktop package :(
<dsmith> ok, my bad memory
<dsmith> I don't use gnome or kde. Just a wm and a few apps.
<wendall911> dsmith: no problem, ty for the time :)
<dsmith> sure, anytime
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<FredFrog> Ho hmmm, the usual crowd...
<dsmith> wendall911, So, what is the correct package to bring them all in.
<wendall911> dsmith: there doesn't appear to be one for gnome2...I found that x-window-system appears to do the trick for X..installing now
<dsmith> wendall911, Yeah, x-window-system.  I remember that now. I was sure there was one for gnome.
<chillywilly> yo
<wendall911> dsmith: i'm in #debian now, nobody seems to think there is
<dsmith> chillywilly, Hey
<wendall911> dsmith: they are pushing that tasksel crap
<dsmith> wendall911, Ok.
<dsmith> Yeah, tasksel is the new improved way instead of metapackages
<wendall911> dsmith: i need a metapackage called gnome-desktop-without-the-crap-i-dont-need
<dsmith> heh
<wendall911> like any apps
<wendall911> just barebones
<dsmith> gnome-panel and gnome-controll-center will probabaly do that
<chillywilly> dsmith: hey hey
<dsmith> chillywilly, Dude, I've got one working eye
<chillywilly> ?
<chillywilly> what happened to the other?
<dsmith> chillywilly, Went to las vegas for a convention and got a bad infections AND some scratches
<wendall911> dsmith: my thought was gnome-panel gnome-core gnome-control-center
<wendall911> chillywilly: lol
<chillywilly> dsmith: didn't I tell you to behave yourself in vegas?
<chillywilly> ;P
Action: wendall911 thinks prostitution is legal in vegas
<dsmith> I behaved myself very well.
<chillywilly> yea, but some may have a moral objection to it ;)
Action: wendall911 hopes to not get infections and scratches there :-D
<chillywilly> oh Lord
<chillywilly> ANYWAY
<dsmith> My iris is frozen too.
<dsmith> A real pain.
<wendall911> dsmith: too much monitor time?
<chillywilly> well I hope you don't loose your eye or something
<chillywilly> that would totally suck
<dsmith> To much handshaking I think.
<chillywilly> heh
<wendall911> I have a friend who got out of eye surgery two days ago to fix that sort of thing...can't even tell and he sees perfectly now
<chillywilly> and just *who* were you shaking hand with?
<chillywilly> ;P
<dsmith> All the competitors.
<nickr> you shouldn't rub your eyes after shaking hands.
<wendall911> or other things
<dsmith> nickr, Now you tell me.
<chillywilly> aaah, so they're using biological warfare now ;)
<chillywilly> hmmm, I never get sick
<chillywilly> maybe once or twice a year
<dsmith> Me neither, usually
<chillywilly> I need some lunch
<dsmith> Hey, today is my youngest kids 13th birthday.
<dsmith> I've got three teenagers now.
<dsmith> So have pity on me.
Action: dsmith sobs with his one good eye.
<dsmith> ;^)
<dsmith> wendall911, Yeah, gnome-core sounds good too.
<wendall911> dsmith: i think gnome-panel is all I need
<wendall911> dsmith: i did gnome-core, and it was selected for removal before install, plus gnome-control-center is a dep
<chillywilly> dsmith: tomorrow is my birthday
<chillywilly> scorpios rule ;P
<chillywilly> dsmith: you're the hip kinda dad
<chillywilly> ;)
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<FredFrog> I just ran across a thing on Sensenbrenner, the Wisconsin Republican we chatted about the other night. Seems maybe he's techno-competent after all. This is from a Slate article on digital TV appearing in Berlin but not in the US: Sticking consumers with useless gadgetry so the government can hit a self-imposed quota ought to provoke consumer outrage. A "Dear Colleague" letter sent last spring to members of Congress by James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., a
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<chillywilly> hi jeff
<chillywilly> I let whomever that was have fun with their political apathy
<nickr> \o/
<jbailey> Heya Dan
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<wendall911> apt-get does not appear to work very well
Action: wendall911 wonders what the big deal is about Debian
<jbailey> What's wrong with apt-get?
Action: nickr blinks.
<jbailey> The usual big deal is that everything Just Works, is available, you never have to compile things, upgrades are easy, and you never have to reinstall.
<jbailey> It also tends to be very well supported.
<nickr> yea.
<jbailey> It also has the advantage that if you care enough you can always do something about the problem yourself.
<nickr> yea.
<jbailey> (up to and including become a DD and taking over the package)
<wendall911> my apt-get broke already
<wendall911> the docs at debian.org are poor at best and #debian is not very helpful
<wendall911> dpkg is broken
<nickr> #debian is hell
<wendall911> dpkg <__ is required to fix dpkg
<nickr> how'd you break dpkg
<wendall911> debian.org docs say do:
<wendall911> apt-get -f install
<wendall911> that does nothing
<wendall911> and
<wendall911> dpkg --configure -a
<wendall911> results in an error
<nickr> how'd you break dpkg?
<wendall911> nickr: i just did an apt-get install gnome-alsasound
<nickr> and then what happened?
<nickr> how do you know dpkg is broken?
<wendall911> nickr: i don't know for sure...without sufficient help with Debian from the community, i assume apt-get is still beta quality and I should go back to compiling
<nickr> No
<nickr> apt-get is not beta quality
<nickr> apt-get is a shotgun with which you can destroy your leg.
<wendall911> nickr: i love linux, but apt-get just looks like another rpm
<nickr> If you approach it like that, then you will get what you expect.
<jbailey> Why do you complain it's broken without pasting a single error message?
<wendall911> jbailey: isn't that what #flood is for?
<jbailey> wendall911: It's worth noting that apt-get is sufficiently non-beta that it's been ported to redhat and other rpm based  platforms.
<jbailey> wendall911: This channel doesn't follow the usual flood rules.
<wendall911> jbailey: cool
<jbailey> If it's excessively long, it's polite to check first.
<wendall911> jbailey: i'll figure it out, but it doesn't look good when there does not appear to be sufficient support for apt-get from the Debian community and it breaks on basic things
<nickr> #debian is not the debian communit
<nickr> y
<nickr> its a cesspool
<jbailey> wendall911: There's no such thing as a debian community.
<wendall911> nickr: thanks, I didn't realize that
<ajmitch> more like a gladiator's arena for trolls :)
<wendall911> heh
<wendall911> that's what it appears to be
<ajmitch> this channel is probably the most useful debian help channel I know of ;)
Action: ajmitch reminisces of the long hours spent here...
<wendall911> cool, I will get a specific on the problem, brb...on another box
<jbailey> To expect a single community for the second-most used distro according to netcraft would be putting a bit high of an expectation on a several million people.
<nickr> yea
<nickr> also one ofg the largest collections of software ever assembled.
<jbailey> I'm here and there for the next little while.  I have to get some work done, but I'll try and help wendall911 on his stuff with everyone else.
<wendall911> jbaily; the problem in in one of the sound libs
<wendall911> jbailey: i'll be able to fix it manually I think
<wendall911> jbailey: i need to rebuild dpkg available in /var/lib/dpkg/available
<nickr> why do you believe you need to do that?
<wendall911> nickr: it is erroring out everytime I try to remove a package and bombs on line 1 with that file referenced
<jbailey> The only time you should need to edit that file is when something's eaten your harddrive.
<nickr> yea
<jbailey> Need a specific error message, or all we're doing is guessing.
<wendall911> jbailey: ok, it is in a different console, let me get the error...I want to know if there is a utility to rebuild that file though
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<jbailey> wendall911: I have a vague idea about how I would do it.  But I've b0rked my system in some incredible ways and never needed to.
<nickr> I think wee need to know wahts going on, or we're still just guessing
<wendall911> jbailey: i think i know what happened...I think I killed it writing the file out after an install
<thierry_> night dudes
<wendall911> jbailey: the file is corrupt
<jbailey> wendall911: Shouldn't be that - It writes to a file and mv's it in place.  All the operations are atomic.
<jbailey> You haven't convinced me that there's any problem with the file and aren't likely to until you show me an error message.
<wendall911> jbailey: it looked like it stopped before it was written out all the way...i cleaned it up and it works, but I know information is missing
<wendall911> jbailey: the error message is basic...it couldn't process that file error on line 1 missing colon
<wendall911> jbailey: upon further inspection only half the gnome-alsamixer entry was written
<wendall911> jbailey: so I removed the rest of the entry...I'm sure that will screw something up later if I cannot repair it
<wendall911> sorry to bug you guys, i'm going to just reinstall...i'll figure out how to fix things once I have a chance to work with it a bit
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<dsmith> wendall911, I'm back.  What kind of problems are you having?
<wendall911> dsmith: i'm reinstalling...i corrupted /var/lib/dpkg/available
<dsmith> wendall911, I think there is a backup somewhere.
<wendall911> dsmith: it was corrupt as well available-old i believe
<dsmith> Weird
<wendall911> dsmith: i'm not sure when I killed it, i could do installs fine, but remove would error our
<wendall911>  s/our/out
<wendall911> dsmith: no worries. I just had some doubts about apt-get...jbailey assured me it was rock solid
<dsmith> apt-get will not let you hoze your system.  dpkg will.
<wendall911> dsmith: is there a way around deb packages that use dpkg?
<wendall911> dsmith: or an alternative
<dsmith> A deb is just an "ar" file with two tarballs inside.
<dsmith> It's possible to open it up and install the pieces byt hand
<wendall911> dsmith: i see
<wendall911> dsmith: is there a known way to fix dpkg problems?
<dsmith> dpkg allows you to overrride and force things, apt-get does not.
<wendall911> dsmith: i hand edited the file and got things working again, but had a question about the validity of my changes
<dsmith> Well, all the databases are text files, so you can edit them if needed.
<dsmith> But I've never done that.
<dsmith> Well, I did once, but I don't remember.
<wendall911> dsmith: i don't have a problem reinstalling...i like to be familiar with things, this is as good of a way to learn as any
<wendall911> dsmith: can I use unstable packages with testing?
<dsmith> If the depenancies are met, sure.
<wendall911> dsmith: some of the desktop packages are so old, they don't work anymore
<dsmith> If not, just rebuild from souece.
<dsmith> apt-get -b source <somepackage>
<wendall911> dsmith: what is the process for doing so? from unstable that is
<wendall911> nm :)
<dsmith> That makes a .deb
<wendall911> dsmith: very cool...does it automatically install the .deb, or do I have to do and apt-get install afterwards?
<dsmith> You need to install it.
<dsmith> dpkg -i <thepackage.deb>
<wendall911> dsmith: ok, is there a packages db? or do I need to DL the source locally?
<dsmith> ?
<wendall911> sorry, i mean sources db
<dsmith> Ah
<dsmith> In /etc/apt/sources.list
<wendall911> sweet, ty
<wendall911> dsmith: can I use sources not in the sources tree? From local sources?
<dsmith> I don't have a Debian system in the house, or I'd paste some lines.
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<wendall911> dsmith: i'm almost back to where I was, so i think i'll be ok...thanks for answering all my questions
<dsmith> wendall911, Sure.
<dsmith> Local source? Hmmm.
<wendall911> I know i'm asking for alot ;)
<dsmith> There are some tools to automate building a new package.
<dsmith> Or you can just install from source to /usr/local/
<dsmith> wendall911, There is some info on createing your own .debs, but mostly it isn't done.
<jbailey> wendall911: Look at alien.
<jbailey> You can use it to create simple packages from binary installs and stuff.
<dsmith> Almost all .debs are from Deban, very very few "outside" packages.
<wendall911> dsmith: I'll want to build some packages for things I've written and such, figuring it out once I understand the system shouldn't bee too difficult
<wendall911> jbailey: great. is it available via apt-get?
<dsmith> Yes
<jbailey> Yup
<dsmith> I've installed quite a few .rpms with alien
<dsmith> Binaries from ibm.
<wendall911> awesome...i'm liking this more and more, even given that I killed things once ;)
<dsmith> Like viavoice and tsm
<jbailey> dsmith: For my private source stuff, I usually do a make install to a different prefix, make a .tgz file, and use alien to install that.
Action: wendall911 hates rpms
<dsmith> jbailey, Yeah, I'd heard you can use alien on tarballs.  Never tried it.
<wendall911> jbailey: that would work perfectly for what I need. Much of my work is in PHP and Perl, so they aren't complex to install
<jbailey> dsmith: Yeah.  I want to hack alien to point it at an install dir to save me a step.
<dsmith> jbailey, What about debhelper or dh-make or whatever?
<jbailey> dsmith: I didn't know that viavoice had been ported to Linux.  cool.
<jbailey> debhelper and all that is way too much work for simple little packages that you don't want to share around.
<dsmith> jbailey, There are some tools to help building .debs, but I'md not familiar with them.
<jbailey> Like really, most of my debian/rules files are 2 or 3 lines tops because of cdbs.
<jbailey> (I've cowritten some of those tools)
<dsmith> jbailey, cdbs?
<jbailey> apt-cache show cdbs
<dsmith> I'm not near a Debian box
<jbailey> Heretic. =)
<jbailey>  This package contains the Common Debian Build System, an abstract
<jbailey>  build system based on Makefile inheritance which is completely
<jbailey>  extensible and overridable.  In other words, CDBS provides a sane set
<jbailey>  of default rules upon which packages can build; any or all rules may
<jbailey>  be overridden as needed.
<dsmith> Just a FreeBSD laptop and OpenBSD firewall.
<dsmith> Cool.
<jbailey> It sounds like the freebsd-i386 folks will start up again in the new year.
Nick change: gsoti -> gsoti_away
<wendall911> jbailey: the new debian installer that Vee pointed me to works fairly well...doesn't do the greatest setting up Grub, but that was an easy fix...want to set the boot to / with no option to set to /boot which is where it installs it, no biggie, i'm sure it will be fixed
<jbailey> wendall911: Yeah.  The new installer isn't even considered beta yet.
<dsmith> I've just installed 4.9, it's working well so far.
<wendall911> jbailey: not a bad piece of work for pre-beta
<jbailey> It might be cool for you too email them and tell them that - I think they mostly hear people yelling at them for things not being good enough.
<dsmith> The nice thing about Debian is you only install it once.
<jbailey> The installer team has it rough.  11 different processors, 3 different kernels, and having to autodetect everything and such.
<dsmith> It's just upgrades from then on.
<wendall911> jbailey: i'll do that, it is really close to being a brainless install
<jbailey> Thanks.
<jbailey> I think I need to hop off irc.  I'm not actually getting any work done.
<jbailey> back later today or tommorow, folks.
Action: wendall911 is the problem...i'll shut up
<wendall911> later jbailey
<jbailey> Not at all. =)  The problem is that the chat screen is up, and my programming window is not. =)
<jbailey> I have to own this one.
<jbailey> *poof*
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<dsmith> heh
<wendall911> :)
<dsmith> wendall911, There is a really nice page with lots of Debian "tips".
<dsmith> wendall911, It's bookmarked on my work machgine
<wendall911> If you remember, send it my way tomorrow
<dsmith> wendall911, Just basic info on using apt-get, apt-cache and the like.
<dsmith> wendall911, If I can see.
<wendall911> dsmith: understood
<dsmith> wendall911, I'm not sure when I'll be back to work.
<wendall911> dsmith: no hurry, once i get this Deb box up and running, i play to use it a workstation and test box for server apps, I'll end up having to learn it that way
<dsmith> wendall911, Check out http://www.debianplanet.org/
Action: wendall911 looks
<dsmith> Good info there sometimes.  Also has a link to the official unoffical apt sources list.
<wendall911> dsmith: cool, thanks
<wendall911> desktop apps are the main apps I'm concerned with for more current releases. I run gnome 2.4 on this desktop (Gentoo) and things like GAIM have to be updated frequently because, Yahoo and M$ tend to break things (on purpose)
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<dsmith> wendall911, Check out the unofficial apt-get sources list. You can get packages that are not (or not yet) in Debin.  Like developer prereleases and packages that track the cvs of some project.
<wendall911> dsmith: ty
<dsmith> np
<LuftHans> wendall911: https://www.LuftHans.com/unix/, see cafod
Action: wendall911 looks
<dsmith> If you tread very very carefully, sometimes it's good to ask on #debian-devel
<LuftHans> maybe s/dist-upgrade/upgrade/ on that doc, I'm debating that today...
<LuftHans> ask on #debian, just be aware that several regulars there are very, very caustic :(
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<nickr> #debian is the seventh layer of the pit
<wendall911> LuftHans: I found that out the hard way
Action: LuftHans wishes those particular people would move on to *BSD...  :)
<wendall911> LuftHans: that is very useful, ty
<wendall911> heh
<dsmith> LuftHans, #freebsd is *way* more caustic than #debian.
<dsmith> wendall911, Kernel building on Debian is very cool.
<wendall911> dsmith: i haven't done that yet, but i'm sure I will
<wendall911> dsmith; does it use the hardware detection?
<ajmitch> dsmith: certain #hurd personalities have their moments :)
<dsmith> wendall911, make-kpkg compiles a kernel and make a .deb thay you can install anywhere.
<LuftHans> wendall911: no prob, glad it helps
<dsmith> ajmitch, heh I can imagine
<LuftHans> most people can use the default kernels, though
<dsmith> LuftHans, True.
Action: ajmitch can't use default kernels, iirc
<wendall911> I always think that I can, then end up wanting to do something that requires me to recompile
<wendall911> dsmith: what was the rpm->deb conversion util?
<dsmith> alien
<ajmitch> alien
<wendall911> ok, so it will do that as well, very cool
<LuftHans> other than testing SCSI patches at the last job, I haven't needed to compile a kernel in years
<LuftHans> avoid alien and use debs whenever possible, though
<dsmith> LuftHans, yes.
<wendall911> LuftHans: I've been messing around with some wireless cards that have me compiling custom kernels almost every time
<wendall911> LuftHans: I just need it for personal use and some desktop apps that need to be current
<dsmith> I haven't been able to rebuild a kernel at work.  It always panics.  I'm not configuring it properly.
<wendall911> I hate it when that happens
<dsmith> So I've been using stock kernels.
<LuftHans> wendall911: ah, ok. well hopefully those problems are going away :)
<wendall911> LuftHans: that would be awesome
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<LuftHans> bah, just went through Tom's HW review of new video card manufacturer and no Free Software references :(
<wendall911> LuftHans: what card?
<LuftHans> xgi or something, article link from /.
<wendall911> dsmith: what method does Debian use to start items at boot? update-rc.d?
<dsmith> wendall911, That updates the sylinks in the /etc/rc.N dirs.
<dsmith> The rh equivallent is chkconfig iirc
<wendall911> update-initd then?
<dsmith> There is a local rc file you can edit, but I forgot the name.
<wendall911> dsmith: ok, I'll find it
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<LuftHans> update-rc.d allows you to reconfig the startup scripts
<LuftHans> you can use it to add your own startup scripts
<LuftHans> s/reconfig/reconfig startup orders and run levels/
<wendall911> LuftHans: ty
<dsmith> Bah! I've been googling for that tips page, but I can't find it. :( There are plenty though.
<LuftHans> the cool thing about google:
<LuftHans> it has everything
<LuftHans> the sucky thing about google:
<LuftHans> it has everything
<wendall911> heh
<dsmith> Google for "tips apt-get apt-cache dpkg"
<LuftHans> viva la command line editing :)
<wendall911> dsmith: the quick way to get a Gnome desktop -> apt-get x-window-system, gdm, gnome-panel, metacity ...start gdm and away you go :)
Action: wendall911 thinks they would know that over at #debian
<dsmith> wendall911, Cool. I'm glad you found it.
<wendall911> dsmith: i just figured that out by talking to you :)
Action: dsmith is just an fvwm and aterm kinda guy.
<wendall911> i used to use macs on the desktop and unix servers for over ten years, so I got spoiled by gui interfaces, but understand and use cl
<Fred_Frog> Anybody know the e-mail for James Thompson, he of the "GNUe Common: A Developer's Introduction"?
<Fred_Frog> Or is he here sometimes?
<LuftHans> FF: he's probably the jamest that's in here
<wendall911> Fred_Frog: he is here often
<dsmith> That'd be my guess
Action: LuftHans only knows full name of Derek and only because he's a Neighbor :)
<wendall911> Fred_Frog: i have it, but I'd have to have his permission to give it out....some people get upset over things like that
<Fred_Frog> I have a bunch of pesky (noobie-typoe) errors, and would like to pester him with my error message file -- which I imagine he can solve by inspection...
Action: dsmith troutslaps LuftHans, chillywilly style
<Fred_Frog> Couldst send it to me? I'm Fred_Frog69@hotmail.com.
<wendall911> Fred_Frog: he is here during the week
<LuftHans> FF: either post 'em in here or put them on a web page and post the URL in here
<LuftHans> dsmith: hey, that was almost a good bad joke :)
<Fred_Frog> I don't think it will go through my IRC: too many blank and short lines.
<Fred_Frog> I'm trying to run the Hello World from his into -- and getting apparently invisible characters. When I hand-type the thing, it complains "No module named gnue.common.GClientApp"
<dsmith> LuftHans, Exactly, hence the troutslap
<Fred_Frog> Anybody got any thoughts?
<Fred_Frog> Troutslap is what you do if you don't have any eels left, I assume.
<LuftHans> FF: can you put it up on a web page somewhere?
<dtm> gsoti_away: hi
<dtm> Vee: thatnks
<Fred_Frog> I can mail you a .txt file.
<LuftHans> <br>UNIX/LINUS Administration<br>UNIX/LINUS Programming<br>
<LuftHans> does Tove know about this gig?
<wendall911> i did update-initd --enable 'gdm' guessing from the man file, that adds it to the startup group...just a guess though...just rebooted, i'll see
<wendall911> it works!
<dtm> LuftHans: hehehehe
<dtm> LuftHans: finally a book on how to administrate Linus!!
<siesel> Fred_Frog: its a bit outdated.
<dtm> LuftHans: his family must be overwhelmed
<siesel> You have to change it to: gnue.common.apps.GClientApp
<wendall911> what would the cover pic be?
<Fred_Frog> Seisel -- And here I downloaded it yesterday, saw all the "TODO" notes, and thought it was a work in progress.
<Fred_Frog> Thanks for the change, Siesel. I'll give it a shot. What sort of change (i.e. version? whole new API? Whutt?) does that represent?
<dtm> Vee: i tend to agree with ya.  i dont see any other way to sanely manage inventory in a way that's unified with physical retail operations and online operations..
<siesel> it is a work in progress, ... just that the progress got interupted :)
<Fred_Frog> 12[1siesel12]11 Uh, that's rather what I suspected....
<siesel> the API is almost the same, just some files got moved around, you should have a look in gnue-common/src/README
<Fred_Frog> Of course "interrupted" rather suggests a sense of direction that is not altogether apparent...
<Fred_Frog> In the Savannah CVS? Where is that src?
<siesel> in the tarball, either savannah cvs or gnue-common-0.5.2.tar.gz
<Fred_Frog> OK, I'll give it a shot tomorrow, when I'm at a Linux machine. Many thanks.
<siesel> btw. the version of the developers guide in cvs already hase the change to gnue.common.apps.GClientApp
<Fred_Frog> You're right. I've got it here now. OK, I'll switch to using that. Thanks again.
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<gsoti> anyone around for a quick question
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<dsmith> gsoti, Just ask
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<gsoti> dsmith: figured it out.  I am in process of building woody and wasn't sure which version of debootstrap to ftp get
<gsoti> used  "woody"
<dsmith> Sorta makes a weird kinda sense.
<gsoti> looking at the dir at the site, there was a pattern of daily time-stamped files.
<gsoti> the deb site has a lot of versions to pick from, being new ... which one do you go for.  
<gsoti> the install instructions don't really say
<dsmith> I dunno, never used debootstrap, except to make an nfsroot filesystem for a mipsel dev board.
<gsoti> ever see this:
<dsmith> I think I just apt-get source debootstrap
<gsoti> hmmm
<gsoti> never thought to look for apt util on suse
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<gsoti> unpacking now...
<gsoti> I got a warning message from perl  ugghhh
Action: dsmith shivvers
<gsoti> LANGUAGE = unset
<gsoti> I know, but that is what the msg says
<dsmith> gsoti, No clue, sorry
<gsoti> LC_ALL = unset  and others.
<dsmith> Did people in #debian send you here?
<gsoti> I have been learning/reading/running python using several manuals from that site
<dsmith> gsoti, If not, you might want to try #debian.
<gsoti> deb build is also part of getting up to speed.
<gsoti> thankyou but the log said that was "hell" 
<gsoti> is that really true?
<dsmith> heh
<dsmith> I never had a problem.
<gsoti> or were you salmon slapping?
<gsoti> heh
<dsmith> Welll, they did yell at me for /away messages
<gsoti> picky picky picky
<gsoti> :-)
<gsoti> no life ??
<gsoti> them I mean...
<dsmith> Lots of people. Every line is precious to them.
<gsoti> oic
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<gsoti> too many on the channel 
<gsoti> sort of makes sense
<gsoti> I don't get too bent over an away msg though
<dsmith> Well, they did.
<dsmith> There are some good people there.
Action: gsoti glad i managed without going there :-)
<gsoti> heh
<dsmith> They have no patience for people who do not want to learn.
Action: gsoti  I love learning anything new
<gsoti> but still like to ask a question
<dsmith> A lot of answers are which man page to read.
<gsoti> oic
<dsmith> "How do I configure my nic?"  "man interfaces"
<dsmith> apt is a cool bot to play with
<gsoti> yes that might warrant a trout slap
<dsmith>  /msg apt news is good to do from time to time
<gsoti> we all do make a slip of not thinking first on occasion.
<dsmith> gsoti, Are you trying to rebuild all of woody from source? Or are you just installing it?
<gsoti> installing from web site
<gsoti> looks like it is stuck on unpacking cron
<gsoti> nope,  scolled down.
<gsoti> x/sco/scro/
<gsoti> s/sco /scro
<gsoti> :-P
<dsmith> I've always installed from cd
<gsoti> can't type anymore
<gsoti> a distro ?
<dsmith> Debain
<gsoti> or copy from debian site
<gsoti> hmmm
<dsmith> I've dl'ed cd's from places and purchased cd's from cheapbytes.
<gsoti> okay
<dsmith> I think the last time I just used an installer cd.
<dsmith> One of those little ones.
<dsmith> No packages, just the base system.
<gsoti> the instructions from the debian site seemed to be pretty straight forward.
<gsoti> dsmith: okay on base sys
<gsoti> I sort of anticipated a small sys over the net. The info made no mention of size.
<gsoti> looking at what is still running..
<gsoti> got down to console tools and then more messages.  ermmm
<gsoti> got >> warning:Setting locale failed.
<dsmith> Hmm.
<gsoti> appears to still be running.  hmmm.
<gsoti> your distro a single CD?
<gsoti> done
Action: gsoti going back to install instructions for next step 
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Nick change: gsoti -> gsoti_away
Action: gsoti_away enough for one night
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--- Mon Nov 10 2003