oy vey ahoy my world is a safe place now.. Action: Vee hugs rsync <3 Action: chillywilly hugs everyone in the channel Action: dtm hugs chillywilly Action: Vee hugs dtm Action: dtm hugs Vee Action: Vee hugs chillywilly Action: chillywilly melts into a puddle yaaay now he's lukewarmwilly wt (~merlinx@ppp189-55.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: wt -> wtg Nick change: mdupont-afk -> mdupont hi dtm, chillywilly Action: Vee hugs mdupont Action: mdupont turns on the electroschock jacket watches vee fly across the room Action: Vee gets a tin-like taste in his mouth Action: mdupont turns off the jacket and picks vee up Action: Vee is impressed by mdupont's display of strength but hopes he puts Vee down soon. Action: mdupont just picked vee up off the floor and dusted hi off him mdupont: still making good progress with your work? dneighbo (~dneighbo@ip68-109-180-32.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #gnuenterprise. heylow derek reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. wtg (~merlinx@ppp189-55.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net) left irc: "Client exiting" moin reinhard derek (~dneighbo@ip68-109-180-32.ph.ph.cox.net) left irc: Connection timed out wtg (~merlinx@ppp189-55.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: wtg -> wtg`afk btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: mdupont -> md-work dcmwai|AWAY (~dcmwai@219.95.59.114) got netsplit. thierry__ (~thierry@musashi.xtensive.com) got netsplit. btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) got netsplit. reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) got netsplit. mcuria-la_vengan (~maxy@29-185-89-200.fibertel.com.ar) got netsplit. dneighbo (~dneighbo@ip68-109-180-32.ph.ph.cox.net) got netsplit. chillywilly (danielb@CPE-24-167-193-166.wi.rr.com) got netsplit. havoc (~havoc@CPE-65-31-107-254.wi.rr.com) got netsplit. Stoke (~stoker@dpvc-141-149-254-50.buff.east.verizon.net) got netsplit. wtg`afk (~merlinx@ppp189-55.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net) got netsplit. dtm (~dtm@r1.txwifi.com) got netsplit. ajmitch (~ajmitch@wlg1-port14.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) got netsplit. nickr (nick@64.35.146.235) got netsplit. SachaS (~sacha@online.havanawave.com) got netsplit. LuftHans (~lufthans@wsip-68-107-221-207.ph.ph.cox.net) got netsplit. btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) returned to #gnuenterprise. wtg`afk (~merlinx@ppp189-55.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) returned to #gnuenterprise. dneighbo (~dneighbo@ip68-109-180-32.ph.ph.cox.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. mcuria-la_vengan (~maxy@29-185-89-200.fibertel.com.ar) returned to #gnuenterprise. dtm (~dtm@r1.txwifi.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. chillywilly (danielb@CPE-24-167-193-166.wi.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. havoc (~havoc@CPE-65-31-107-254.wi.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. Stoke (~stoker@dpvc-141-149-254-50.buff.east.verizon.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. LuftHans (~lufthans@wsip-68-107-221-207.ph.ph.cox.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. SachaS (~sacha@online.havanawave.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. nickr (nick@64.35.146.235) returned to #gnuenterprise. ajmitch (~ajmitch@wlg1-port14.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) returned to #gnuenterprise. dcmwai|AWAY (~dcmwai@219.95.59.114) returned to #gnuenterprise. thierry__ (~thierry@musashi.xtensive.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. Nick change: SachaS -> SachaAway chillywilly (danielb@CPE-24-167-193-166.wi.rr.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) chillywilly (danielb@CPE-24-167-193-166.wi.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. morning gnuers GNUPredator (mdupont@p5080E54A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #gnuenterprise. md-work (mdupont@p5080E839.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) mcuria-la_vengan (~maxy@29-185-89-200.fibertel.com.ar) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) mcuria-la_vengan (~maxy@29-185-89-200.fibertel.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise. thierry_ (~thierry@musashi.xtensive.com) joined #gnuenterprise. thierry__ (~thierry@musashi.xtensive.com) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "No problem is so interesting that you can't just walk away from it." ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise. btami (~tamas@ip102-205.ktv.tiszanet.hu) left irc: jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. mcuria-la_vengan (~maxy@29-185-89-200.fibertel.com.ar) left irc: "Client Exiting" thierry_: bon matin mon ami hey does anyone here know of any good foreign (to US) language teaching programs for GNU/Linux (free or otherwise)? my 5 year old REALLY wants to learn spanish i keep offerring to teach them all my really bad french but it just isnt sexy enough for them i guess darn Dora has them set on spanish ;) hello dneighbo jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (~dsmith@mail.actron.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: wtg`afk -> wtg`sleep wendall911 (~wendallc@guardian.nidaho.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: dcmwai|AWAY is back (gone 12:35:30) Nick change: dcmwai|AWAY -> dcmwai apropos (tom@wsip-68-15-205-134.ok.ok.cox.net) left #gnuenterprise. dneighbo (~dneighbo@ip68-109-180-32.ph.ph.cox.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) dsmith (~dsmith@mail.actron.com) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) dsmith (~dsmith@mail.actron.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: GNUPredator -> mdupont hi all mcuria (~maxy@29-185-89-200.fibertel.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise. Action: dcmwai is away: Sleeping, Good Night Nick change: dcmwai -> dcmwai|AWAY dsmith (~dsmith@mail.actron.com) left irc: Connection timed out dsmith (~dsmith@mail.actron.com) joined #gnuenterprise. havoc (~havoc@CPE-65-31-107-254.wi.rr.com) got netsplit. Stoke (~stoker@dpvc-141-149-254-50.buff.east.verizon.net) got netsplit. havoc (~havoc@CPE-65-31-107-254.wi.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. Stoke (~stoker@dpvc-141-149-254-50.buff.east.verizon.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. havoc (~havoc@CPE-65-31-107-254.wi.rr.com) got netsplit. Stoke (~stoker@dpvc-141-149-254-50.buff.east.verizon.net) got netsplit. wendall911 (~wendallc@guardian.nidaho.net) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) havoc (~havoc@CPE-65-31-107-254.wi.rr.com) returned to #gnuenterprise. Stoke (~stoker@dpvc-141-149-254-50.buff.east.verizon.net) returned to #gnuenterprise. wendall911 (~wendallc@guardian.nidaho.net) joined #gnuenterprise. bully (~chatzilla@pD9EBABA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #gnuenterprise. mouns (mouns@kali.mouns.org) joined #gnuenterprise. hi is here someone i can talk about the gnue and the appserver as the main part the two people that I think would know the most about appserver are not here reinhard and siesel can you tell me what the appserver is good for or do you now if there is more doc about it i don't know it's current state i know it's becoming useful but to what degree of usefulness that is I can't say dcmwai|AWAY (~dcmwai@219.95.59.114) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.58.174) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: "Client exiting" jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) left irc: "Client exiting" jbailey (~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com) joined #gnuenterprise. siesel (jan@xdsl-213-196-214-90.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise. hi all siesel: hi dtm: btw. if I have contributed reports/forms for the gnue subdir of dcl, where should I send these? siesel: i'd say you'd submit it on the patch manager or whatever, on dcl.sf.net bully: You still here? In the log I read that you want to talk about appserver. dtm: ok, I'll try this. hi siesel hi siesel hi bully, what are your questions. can i talk you in german mdupont, hi, I'll read your mails on the list, I'll try to reply later :) bully: klaro wunderbar und zwar geht es um die detailierte aufgabe vom appserver Die Aufgabe von Appserver liegt darin abstrahierte Geschftlogik an einem Ort zu vereinen siesel: kein problem ich bin Dran, einen Prototype zu basteln so dass man nicht an eine Datenbank oder einen Client gebunden ist. mdupont: einen dcl prototypen, oder was fuer einen prototypen? aber der appserver holt ja dann im endefekt die daten sowieso von einer datenbank hey speaking of which, i have some German concerns too. what the heck are the guards in Wolfenstein 3D screaming when you shoot them? i dont speak German. also warum nicht die verknüpfungen auch in einer db speichern dtm: :) never played wolfenstein siesel: oh ok it sounds something like "mein laben!!" jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. bully: weil dadadurch zum einen eine Abhaengigkeit zur Datenbank geschaffen wird, jedoch ist der Hauptgrund dtm: I remember the old Apple ][ Wolfenstein. Achtung! * veganzombie has joined #uc Graaaaaaaiiiiinnssss..... * veganzombie has quit IRC (Quit: Graaaaaaaiiiiinnssss.....) Oy. i'm in tears now jamest: lol jbailey: dude i've never seen that! i have seen Wolfenstein 3D for Apple //gs though. dtm: Go back a decade. =) http://introspector.sourceforge.net/2003/11/dcl-introspector-0.1.tgz <-- prototype yeah. I'm old.= ) ist das man alle Teile, die nicht zur eigentlichen Geschaeftlogic gehoeren, nicht immer aufs neue implementieren will. siesel: it is a prototype for a new clean model that i am generating based on DCL it emits now perl and sql and later will be able to emit gnue stuff and php mdupont: as well as a pleasing odor to regenerate the entire DCL backend with a consistent logic and multiple interfaces *sniff*..it's..*sniff* ..something..*sniff*...citrusy...if i'm *snif*not*snif*mistaken. d.h. es geht darum, transaktionssicherheit, persistenz etc. durch den appserver zu liefern, und nicht jedes mal neu programmieren zu muessen mdupont: well done :) Aspekte wie lastverteilung spielen natuerlich auch eine Rolle. dtm, "mein laben" -> "my life" , "Achtung" = "Attention" siesel: like an EJB container yes. Does this help DCL become a real GNUe app? in wie fern müssen den die Teile die nicht zur Geschäftslogik gehören immer wieder implementiert werden ? jbailey: yes it will help create a whole suite of GNUe apps dadurch das diese Teile vom Appserver uebernommen werden. jamest: Hey thinking of which, at what rev is forms supposed to get pixel level positioning instead of on a grid? Leider ist appserver noch kein 100% fertiges Produkt. siesel: oh ok wow so i guessed the spelling correctly :) jbailey: mdupont is the biggity bomb shiznittle juice plus steroids, fyi Im moment arbeiten wir an der Implementierung des Logikbestandteils, so dass wir ueber die endgueltige Implementierung noch keine genauen Angaben machen koennen, jbailey: with just a spritz of citrus jbailey: better than Rockstar or Redbull sorry für's wiederholte nachfragen, aber ich glaube ich stehe auf der Leitung. Ich kann doch die Verkn. in einer DB abspeichern und vom client jedesmal abfragen lassen. jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey: its just one report I like to add to "dcl" Ja es geht mir nicht um das fertige Produkt sonder eher darum das gesamte System von GNUe zu verstehen jbailey: 23.4.2 hmm, the gfd can take other layout styles gnue besteht prinzipiell aus drei hauptbestandteilen: forms, reports und designer but until someone write a layout manager to do it...... forms ist zur eingabe und zum bearbeiten von daten, reports liefert Berichte, oder auch einzelne Datensaetze fuer Serienbriefe und designer hilft bei der Erstellung der Forms und reports diese drei dinge liegen auf der Client seite, und koennen auch standalone, d.h. nur mit einer datenbank betrieben werden, jamest: Thinking that positioning in HTML is supposed to be done by pixel. (also feeling like I should get my ass in gear on that project) Wenn jetzt jedoch geschaeftslogic dazukommt, d.h. zum beispiel nach der eingabe eines datensatzes (z.B. eines neu verkaufen Artikels) eine Summentabelle geändert werden muss, dann kann man das sowohl in der datenbank, im client oder dazwischen erledigen. jbailey: I forget why you guys want strict positioning in an html client? Es hat sich herausgestellt, dass es sinnvoll ist eine schicht zwischen client und datenbank zu setzen, und dies ist bei uns der "appserver". Vee: As opposed to what? OK jetzt kommt etwas licht ins dunkle ;-) :) Ich versuche es noch einmal in meine Worte zu fassen jbailey: well that was the obstacle which was hit in the attempt to create one, no? The difficulty in rendering the layout in html? Vee: absolute positioning is working great with css. Der AppServer ist sozusagen eine ansammlung von tool die z.B: Bei einer Eingabe vom Projekt, für den Personal benötigt wird, überprüft ob angefordertes Personal zu diesem Zeitpunkt verfügbar ist ?! jbailey: I just recall bits and pieces of conversations where you(?) were trying to do grid format using html and it being inconsistent? reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. bully: ganz genau, es beinhaltet die Geschaeftsprozesse eines unternehmens. Man koennte es auch tools nennen. hi reinhard. hi siesel and all aber müssen denn die Geschäftsprozesse nicht von jedem Unternehmen selbst eingegeben werden ??? doch, und aus diesem Grunde wollen wir, dass es so einfach wie möglich ist. Vee: Yeah, because CSS doesn't provide a grid in any way. What I was trying to do was Do it based on the size of the characters, but there's no font that does that perfectly. Dennoch soll Transaktionsicherheit, Skalierbarkeit etc. erfüllt werden, und deswegen brauchen wir Appserver habt Ihr Entwürfe darüber wie der Logik-Teil ausschaut? Noch nicht viele, jedoch gab es kürzlich Diskussion darüber auf der Mailingliste hast du mir das Datum evtl. ? http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/gnue-dev/2003-11/msg00002.html und die folgenden... mdupont: ich bin schon gespannt auf den Prototypen. siesel: you can try it out i mean it does not do anything yet jbailey: when we talk about 'the html' client.. are we both talking about the php-forms deal? :) mdupont: I'll like to try it out later today^H^H^Hnight ok Vee: No. Gnue-forms with an html driver. well all it does is generate stuff php-forms has two problems with it: 1) It's a separate code base from the main forms, so it's costly to maintain. 2) It uses a series of nested tables, so isn't useful on handhelds or in any sort of situation where accessibility is needed. wow. m$ hired several people to find security holes in linux, which then is supposed to improve the reputation of windows cool jbailey: I guess I'm slightly confused how such a driver would be used? jbailey: can you have a look at the HTML code generation used for the javascript client? reinhard: Nice! Hopefully they'll publish the offending places so we can demonstrate taht at least we fix security bugs. Vee: CGI or mod_python. siesel: Is it up and running somewhere? It uses python and creates html with absolute positioning Ah, nice. you can use designer to create html out of a gfd file (Tools->Extra-Create Webform) ok, thanks for the clarifications jbailey. :) Perhaps it can be converted to be a forms driver then - My only question would be how much does it rely on the Javasript? Like, does it work without Javascript running? they're probably testing against an old copy of RH 5 siesel: That shouldn't be needed, though. siesel: A forms driver should Just Work(tm) with the gfd file. Action: reinhard visualizes an m$ employee filling out a bug report in bugzilla ;-) you can still reuse the gfd->html creation. reinhard: "Linux SUCKS ASS because I found a cross site PHP scripting bug that was fixed 2 years ago" bit doesn't work without javascript, as its an standalone client it communicates with appserver throught XMLRPC to load/store data. siesel: Sure, but again, I don't think it should be necessary. Forms is lightweight enough and already includes all the validation logic - You can't trust the client to hand you valid data, right? yes, doing a forms uidriver plugin is great. I just didn't choose that way because I needed a faster client. http://somehost/gnue-forms.cgi?zipcode.gfd Vee: With a bit of login in the mod_python plug in, that could easily be http://somehost/forms/zipcode Rewriting code is not good, but sometimes is difficult without :) XSLT would be nice to use if you do html form generation, then formating for visual purposes would be easy jbailey: the scripting medium between the actual forms client and the server shouldnt really matter,eh? it could just as well be mod_perl or php? Vee: It could be, sure. Except that the main forms development happens in python. There is alot of good python code written that does html, pdf, etc. type output from xml Anything else is a port, and is guarannteed to lag a bit behind the rest of the system. btami (~btami@ngprs.pannongsm.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. right, but I'm just saying.. that portion of things could be functionally related to navigator, right? it just calls the forms/report(?) client with the appropriate file.. there wouldnt be a lot to it.. Oh, hmm, yeah I guess. Wouldn't that be slow cross-language though? Unless it was something like jython. well that's my point, if I understand you correctly.. you're just talking about execing the forms client.. so what you exec it from is moot.. this is neat suff.. :) Sure. I think that it should be mod_python friendly, though, so you don't have the CGI overhead. IMHO the difficult point in using the current uidriver layer is that there is much translation work needed, as there are 2-7 events triggered for each action, which could result in 2-7 http connections. just my 2 cents. my ideal solution still involves forms starting it's own http server on a non-standard port, so it can do it's own persistence, etc Really? I thought the curses interface just let curses handle it, and picked up only one event per action. jcater: The places where I want to use forms in websites wouldn't be able to do that. jcarter: i've used a similar method before and it works quite nicely...you can package your own apache...clients like it too, cause it is easy to set up jbailey: if you want to see the 50% ready jsclient: http://ischebeck.dyndns.org:8765/sample.html jcater/wendall911: isnt that just a higher level issue? Vee: yes, really just an implementation issue for the end use jcater: I was thinking of you yesterday. They just openned up 2 Krispy Kremese within 2 blocks of my work. So it's okay to move to Canada now. mmmm jcater/wendall911: a matter of final packaging setup of whatever the application is, I mean. At the lower level you just need the forms client to render a gfd to html and be able to parse the posted return..? 2? geeze siesel: es ist zimlich aus dem Zusammenhang gerissen mir fehlen da noch die Grundgedanken zur realisierung Vee: I think there's a little more to it than that siesel: aber vielleicht kannst du mir dass mal am folgendem beispiel erklären: jcater: I'm sure I'm over simplifying it jcater: btw. did you look at that dcl ticket report stuff? siesel: Ah, you've taken the whole-application approach. wie realisiert ihr dass Teil-Projekte erst nach beendigung vorherieger Projekte stattfinden könne So there's no reloads at all. yes, javascript. :) bully: wir entwickeln viele Dinge gleichzeitig, bzw. nach bedarf. Meinst du das mit deiner Frage? eigentlich nicht auf euch bezogen, sondern auf GNUe Vee: I think you're right, but the problem is going to be with any html method you use. It is difficult to trigger events. My thoughts were that you would just be using it to process form data that would be processed through the logic engine on the App server side. If you need more, you could do as jcarter suggested. siesel: yes and no I started on it but got distracted Beispiel: Action: jcater is very busy at home and work :( but it's on my todo list jcater. ok, thanks that you started :) dsmith (~dsmith@mail.actron.com) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host) Baufirma: Plaunt den Bau eine Einfam. Hauses <----- Hauptprojekt Action: siesel knows long todo lists. als Teil-Projekt muß zuerst der Keller fertiggestellt sein Action: siesel knows that wifes are always on place one. :) als (Folge)- Teil-Projekt kommt dann der EG wie verknüpft bzw. überprüft ihr den Zusammenhang ach so. in diesem fall dass Proj. A fertig ist bevor Proj. B anfängt da gibt es natuerlich verschiedene Möglichkeiten, am sinnvollsten wäre wohl eine entsprechende Tabelle für Project abhängigkeiten anzulegen, und restriktionen auf Basis dieser Abhängigkeiten in der Datenbank durchzusetzen. Aber das läuft unter "noch zu implementierender Geschäftslogik" und ist momentan nicht unser Hauptaugenmerk. So wie es ausschaut beschäftigst du dich schon etwas läger mit solchen Sachen. Ich hätte ne frage zur stabilität eines Systems bzw. würde gerne deine Meinung dazu hören wäre dass OK ja, jedoch muß ich gleich noch anderen Dingen arbeiten, also kurz :) ich kriegs glaube ich nicht kurz kann ich dich mal kontaktieren? eMail vielleicht? Action: siesel watching "The dossier" bzw. wer ist denn für die noch zu implementierende Geschäftsprozesse zuständig? ich! bully: just call be business logic! bully: just call me Mr. business logic! mdupont: kann mit dir auf deutsch kommunizieren oder englich Klar wie Du m?chtest de ist glaube ich noch einfacher ;-) hast du schon irgendwelche anhaltspunkte ? oder ideen Ja viele viele Ideen und anhaltspunkte Frage: Wie macht ihr es mit den Schnitstellen untereinander Antwort : Ich habe vor, viele Schnittstellen zu unterstutzen xmlrpc, soap, perl, c, c# python direkte und indirekte und wie soll die komm. zw. appserver und business logic stattfinden bzw. werden diese in der DB zusammengefasst Datei eigenes Programm ahh habe ich was falsch verstanden ??? meine Plan ist es, die Business Logic in eine Art Sever zu Kapseln was auf die verschiede Schnittstellen der AppServer zugreifen kann aber in Grunde genommen, getrennt ist vom Appserver zumindest Physikalisch (meinen Plan) (Server) ja aber dann ist ja wieder der AppServer überflüssig ?! nein Du hast in EJB einen Container (der appserver) und eine EJB bean (der Business logic) langsam bitte .... kenne GNUe erst seit zwei Tagen ;-) was ist EJB die sprechen miteinander ?ber einen Schnellen schnittstelle um Enterprise Java Beans, j2ee I understand EJB Action: jcater doesn't like this conversation already i said : and I don't even understand 99% of it :) my plan is to separate the appserver from the business logic the BL can use various services from the appserver but it can also be separated physically the appserver is like an EJB container and the BL like an EJB bean they communicate over a fast connection jcater: thanks :) what do you think jcater? mouns (mouns@kali.mouns.org) left irc: Remote closed the connection ok but if the BL is like a server then it is possible to communikate with the BL and let the BL put the info in the right order to the DB bully: well the idea would be that the DB would be encapulated by the appserver so you would have you BL process that gets jobs and delivers results to the appserver we need to strap another term on there that starts with a T.. business logic t... hmmm Vee: you hungry? yea, you? :) yea and a BLT would hit the spot but "im grundegenommen" the BL are only dependecy of Obj. e.g. Projekt on other Obj. e.g. Person yes, it would. jcater: what do you think about all of this? what is your idea? so therefor you could store the dependencies in the DB where the Object are stored ??? bully: storage in the db yes bully: let me point out that I am not speaking for the gnue project just telling you my ideas i am also getting started, but think that gnue has lots to offer so you make your own Businnes Soft.? bully: i am thinking more about logic to validate the transactions maybe something that needs external interfaces or existing software bully: yes i am planning out the creation of business software, bully: wo Sitzt Du gerade? Ich bin in Frankfurt am Main... 100 km süd-westlich von München bully: huh? wo genau? mdupont: I'm not really following along Fangen wir mit groben abtastungen an: ;-) Kempten? -> Kaufbeuren -> Stöttwang Action: jcater defers all appserver stuff to reinhard :) he is the man with the plan jcater: um Action: reinhard hides Ahhh Kempten, ?s? naaah Kaufbeuern sagt mir was dann hast du mich ja schon lokalisiert ;-) ich kenne benediktbeuren ja ich glaube das ist auch hier in der Ecke reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) mdupont: wie Planst du dein Projekt von der Struktur her ? von der Struktur her, ich bastle gerade an einem MetaModel was den Kompletten objektmodel des Business abdeckt als input nehme ich den DCL gerade, aber werde alle grosse Opensource Pakete heranzeihen ausdem generiere ich SQL, Perl, und sp?ter die notwendigen GNUe definitionen Frage: es gibt doch mittlerweile so viele Obj. und Verknüpfungen dass es kaum noch möglich ist all dies von vornherein zu implementieren? klar deswegen nehme ich das st?ckweise vor mcuria (~maxy@29-185-89-200.fibertel.com.ar) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) warum dann nicht alle an einem großem-Projekt ????? so wie sich GNUe anhört ist relativ ausbaufähig ???? bully: ich habe einem grossem Projekt und es ist ausbau f?hig machst du es offen oder nur für dich ???? der Plan ist Gross, die Schritte klein offen hast du schon was im Netz yes Action: mdupont updates his tgz let me try this before i upload i mean do you have some documentation btami (~btami@ngprs.pannongsm.hu) left irc: "night all" documentation? no i am just doing it the documentation is in the code I am developing a pattern language for describing the OO model in a high level but there are some documents but nothing very good what do you need to know? what is a pattern language? and OO Model wold you like to send me doc's a pattern language is a way to describe common problems and solutions in an abstract manner basically I am developing a set of high level definitions that occur in the busines model and i create instances of those patterns to generate business objects lets look at the pattern of a Sender-Receiver you have the same thing 100 times in a large software i will change ideas, and get some different opines (Meinung) where you track someone requesting something and that being fulfilled that can be described once and all the instances of it can be generated or you might have an attribute that changes over time where you want a history function, that is a pattern or you have an timestamp and the last person who updated it, that is also a pattern reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. now the OOModel is an Object Oriented Model that means you describe the object in terms of interfaces, where you encapulate the implementation of the object the state of the object is accessable via methods Also, it is important to model the real relationships between the object not just the fact that an table has a reference to another table but you want to ask yourself, what type of relationship is that is it 1. a member where when the one is destroyed, the other is also destroyed or 2. an optional reference where the objects are separate or 3. an association between many of one object and many of another or 4. a collection of objects owned by another all of this and more is specfied by the UML standard i could go one if you like but isn't it also possible with one ER model with a lot of tools like the appServer i dont know ER model is just *a part* of an UML model i will continue in german because its to hard for me and the ER model also contains more information than what is expressed in the SQL i think we will need a #gnue-de :) what ER model standard are you talking about, what relationships can you model? reinhard: gute idee but then the gnue would be empty! reinhard: i think so too ;-) seriously it is not like there is too much talking here anyway i don't think it's nice to others talking german here it's a lot of talk and you don't understand anything bully: you can ask in german and i will answer in english must be annoying for jbailey, jamest and all of them Hmm? and try and paraphrase your question in english mcuria (~maxy@29-185-89-200.fibertel.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise. I can follow German if I need to. jbailey: wow, didn't know that i like it however we can always /join #gnue-de as I don't understand a word babelfish can alway help so if people bitch about forms, reports, gnue in general I wouldn't know so I don't feel as bad about myself and I less bug reports to ignore you can create object like Attributes in the ER http://introspector.sourceforge.net/2003/11/dcl-introspector-0.1.tgz is my updated model bully: attribute are one thing what about temporal associations? i mean one table like when you track status changes reinhard: Yeah. I'm very slow at it, so it's very much on an as needed basis. or the provisioning of resources over time how do you model that in ER? is not tupel one record bully: ok, ER is good stuf f and alot of it has wandered into UML reinhard: So mostly answering bug reports, or figuring out if Germans are talking about me. =) but there is much more in UML that can be good for modelling business processes like : state transition models collboration models use case model and also better collection semantics but basically what I have right now, *is* an ER model and a pattern language to generate that but what about inheritance? i mean you have some things that are common in all subclasses how do you model that in ER? i hear for the first time UML so i could not associate enogh stuff for knowing now what you mean ok ER you have one table for one Obj. http://www.uml.org/ for example, with lot of "Eigenschaften" you might want to model an Entity that is the base class for Person and Company so it is one basic object or even Employee sure you might have one table for one object with lots of attributes then its possible to create another table for relationships for this obj. and one table for all_relationships and ER is just fine for that yes so it's possible to make different obj. depending on each other bully: yes, but is it possible to model that at a high level? for example, i have a pattern rule like this : message("workorder","timecard"); that says, a work order is a request and the timecard is the result from that rule, i can generate the needed tables and the business logic as well to satisfy the relationship one moment but there are many examples of patterns like that bully: yes? Action: mdupont waits Action: mdupont waits night all reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Real programmers don't comment their code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand." night ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) left irc: "Client exiting" lesterb (~chatzilla@ash1-dsl-ws-25.dsl.airstreamcomm.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: mdupont -> md-phone ToyMan (~stuq@user-0cevdks.cable.mindspring.com) joined #gnuenterprise. bully (~chatzilla@pD9EBABA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: "ChatZilla 0.8.31 [Mozilla rv:1.4.1/20031008]" jbailey (~jbailey@atlas.fundserv.com) left irc: "Client exiting" night siesel (jan@xdsl-213-196-214-90.netcologne.de) left irc: "Client exiting" dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.58.174) left irc: "Client exiting" R45 (~r45@cuscon195.tstt.net.tt) joined #gnuenterprise. wtg`sleep (~merlinx@ppp189-55.lns1.bne1.internode.on.net) left irc: "Client exiting" Nick change: md-phone -> mdupont gsoti_away (~gsotiroff@adsl-68-23-177-8.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: R45 -> SuSE Nick change: SuSE -> R45 Nick change: mdupont -> md-ZZZ gsoti_away (~gsotiroff@adsl-68-23-177-8.dsl.chcgil.ameritech.net) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) jcater_ (~jcater@cpe-066-061-071-147.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection Nick change: jcater_ -> jcater ToyMan (~stuq@user-0cevdks.cable.mindspring.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.153.30) joined #gnuenterprise. R45 (~r45@cuscon195.tstt.net.tt) left irc: "leaving" dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.153.30) left irc: "Client exiting" dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.153.30) joined #gnuenterprise. Vee: yoo hoo... Vee: Just wounder if the GnueDesign is working? dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.153.30) left irc: "Client exiting" bah.. you're too quick dcmwai dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.153.30) joined #gnuenterprise. mcuria (~maxy@29-185-89-200.fibertel.com.ar) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) wendall911 (~wendallc@guardian.nidaho.net) left irc: "Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/" mcuria (~maxy@29-185-89-200.fibertel.com.ar) joined #gnuenterprise. --- Fri Nov 14 2003