Nick change: alandd_awayforno -> alandd
<alandd> dneighbo: There is a proposal, more of a sort of fleshed out idea, to add a "models and features" capability to PCMRP.
<alandd> I know from the start that it is a bad plan.  Bolting on top of other apps is almost always a bad plan.
<alandd> there just is not the will to dedicate the resources to do it right, currently.
<alandd> The gnue front end would slurp data from the pcmrp database to allow the user to create a
<alandd> feature/model definition and then feed the data back into pcmrp so the work orders, etc.
<alandd> all work right.
Action: alandd tries to get the bad taste that plan leaves, out of his mouth.
<alandd> This is a different effort than the application we discussed last month.
<alandd> That effort is data read from pcmrp but does not go back into pcmrp.
<alandd> still a half solution but much cleaner since the data can come out and into something over which we have control.
<Vee> man.. those screenshots of the matrix spoof ballmer and gates did are pretty 'LOL' funny... 
<Vee> http://www.alterslash.org/#Gates_Comdex_Keynote_Shows_Plans_Matrix_Spoof
<alandd> Vee: A couple of geeks with lots of money made a goofy film.  It is funny.
<alandd> The really funny part is that they feel the need to focus so much on Linux (and vicariously FS/OSS in genera)
<alandd> genera/general
<alandd> With all the growth of Linux in the last couple of years, it still has not made a big dent in
<alandd> MS revenue.  They know it is coming and they are trying to stop it while still small
<alandd> because once people know and understand, it will roll over MS like a tide.
<dneighbo> alandd: you still around?
<dneighbo> if it is a data READ only
<dneighbo> is that what i am hearing
<dneighbo> or will you push data back to PCMRP?
<dneighbo> it appears you want a two way pump?
Action: dneighbo is trying to get a good feel
<dneighbo> certainly you could access the data in PCMRP directlty with ODBC if you wanted
<dneighbo> short of that probably next easiest way is write quick python program (that uses ODBC/ADO) to read the fox pro tables and export to flat file
<dneighbo> then have your GNU Enterprise app "import" the flat files into postgres (or some other database)
<dneighbo> manipulate thte superset of data there
<dneighbo> then export back out to flat file at which point a python program reimports
<dneighbo> this should be fairly easy exercise as you are on windows
<dneighbo> so ADO/ODBC can really be your friend here
<dneighbo> worse case you take our ODBC driver and subclass it (like we did for DB2 5.0)
<dneighbo> to get features you need
<dneighbo> probably more reliable and less hassle than trying to get a dbf driver to work
<dneighbo> on GNU/Linux
<alandd> dneighbo: yes, two way
<alandd> I had to read what you wrote, twice.
<dneighbo> im crazy thats why
<dneighbo> its called double speak
<alandd> I think you have the gist of it
<dneighbo> i answered my own question after reading what you wrote again :)
<alandd> the thought is to have this application's client on a browser (otherwise on windows, as you said)
<alandd> I worry about getting the reimport right
<alandd> don't want to mess up the current running application
Nick change: zzzz-md -> mdupont
<dneighbo> yeah but you have to right?
<alandd> yes
<mdupont> morning dneighbo
<alandd> The goal:
<alandd> PCMRP requires that a full BOM be made for a product if anything is different
<alandd> ie. change the quanity of a sub-component, then either the rev of the current bom must change or
<alandd> a new bom must be created, creating a new part number
<alandd> the bom rev is not the answer because we have to build the previous version of the product along with the new rev.
<alandd> but if the bom revs, the old rev is now gone.
<alandd> BUT creating new boms for every variation of a product is a nightmare.
<alandd> the application we are talking about doing would be to take base product boms
<alandd> and build feature or models of them outside pcmrp
<alandd> and then feed the new data arrangement back into it to get the usual work orders and inventory and etc.
<mdupont> alandd: i am working on something like that
<mdupont> it is based on the idea of freezing and thawing the BOM
<mdupont> and using inheritance and patterns to create it
<mdupont> basically you have two databases
<mdupont> one had the BOM metadata
<mdupont> the other the BOM instances
<mdupont> and a third (belongs in the instances) set of  that tables that you can describe free form instances
<mdupont> so you can make protoypes and then derived new classes from them
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<mdupont> the trick is to use procedures for creating types out of prototpyes
<mdupont> and for generation new tables to store the various types instances of the base class
<mdupont> moin reinhard
<alandd> mdupont: interesting.  This sounds like what we want but we are restricted
<mdupont> ok
<mdupont> what restriction`
<alandd> because we are adding on top of an existing MRP package.
<mdupont> ?
<mdupont> alandd: my model includes domain specific code generators
<mdupont> and pattern language
<reinhard> hi all
<mdupont> that will allow you to create an existing MRP specific code generator
<mdupont> to produce custom a BOM instances tableset
<mdupont> that is modeled after the existing system
<mdupont> and even generate GUI and report code 
<alandd> sounding more interesting.
<alandd> where is this wonderful project of yours?
<mdupont> introspector.sf.net
<mdupont> you can try the code generator out now
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<mdupont> http://introspector.sourceforge.net/2003/11/dcl-introspector-0.1.tgz
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<mdupont> i am working out the model for the prototype and subclassing system now
<mdupont> but when the pattern works
<mdupont> i will be able to generate that for any system needed
<mdupont> is the MRP system closed source?
<mdupont> do you use postgres?
<alandd> MRP is closed source  :^(  It's data is in .dbf files and it is compiled from Foxpro.
<alandd> the web site speaks of metadata from the compiler and so on.  How does the translate to a DB application?
Action: alandd tries to shake the sleep out of his brain
<mdupont> great
<mdupont> i have lots of foxpro experience
<mdupont> and know a really crack foxpro programmer
<mdupont> what version you use?
<alandd> don't know.  The application is closed source, third party.  pcmrp.com
<mdupont> ok
<mdupont> let me look
<mdupont> what do you pay for the stuff?
<siesel> Incredible Price/Performance Ratio - Single User Version $695.00
<alandd> the company has used it for a very long time
<alandd> replacing it completely would be hard, both effort (time and $) and politically.
<alandd> the idea is to add the models and features bom creation on top of it and then let it do it's thing for all the other funcitons.
<alandd> mult-user version $1495.
<mdupont> alandd: well if you  need help
<mdupont> i can help you with foxpro 
<mdupont> and foxpro/gnu integration
<alandd> this is good!
<mdupont> you know it is possible to integrate foxpro with soap
<mdupont> a good freind of mine is hardcore foxpro consultant
<mdupont> and trainer
<mdupont> and i did foxpro/dbase for years
<mdupont> back in the days
<mdupont> when it was new
<mdupont> but you know, 
<mdupont> if you want someone to support non-free software, 
<mdupont> then it will have to cost ya something 
<mdupont> in the end
<alandd> yes
<alandd> the goal at this point is to do this "new" part with Free tools but keep the existing part functional
<mdupont> sure
<mdupont> interfaces
<mdupont> a gateway
<mdupont> we need a couple of those
<mdupont> i would be willing to help out if the majority of my work went into the core
<mdupont> and you handled the details of the interface into the other software
<mdupont> do you have a detailed spec for what is needd?
<alandd> that would be fine
<alandd> no, it is not to the detailed point yet.
<alandd> it is at the "could we do this?" point.
<thierry> morning gnuers
<mdupont> do you use a sql backend?
<mdupont> and what version of FP you have installed?
<mdupont> using a deployed exe?
<mdupont> <alandd> the web site speaks of metadata from the compiler and so on.  How does the translate to a DB application?
<mdupont> well,
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<mdupont> the db is what stores the metadata
<mdupont> and handles the structure of the programs that deal with that
<mdupont> i am working on focusing the introspector on business apps
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<mdupont> so instead of reading form the gcc
<mdupont> i am reading oracle dbs
<btami> morning
<mdupont> and other code
<mdupont> hi btami
<btami> hi all
Action: mdupont is going crazy on ebay
<alandd> mdupont: I'm getting data from germany now so I am a bit distracted.
<Vee> bidwatcher/bidmonkey are gems 
<alandd> no sql bakend the app uses FP on DBF files
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<alandd> using a deployed exe.
<alandd> do not have fox pro installed right now.  Don't want to.  ;^)
<siesel> hi btami
<mdupont> alandd: where were you in germany?
Action: btami is reading log
<btami> hi siesel 
<mdupont> alandd: to be honest
<mdupont> i dont want toeither
<mdupont> so you are looking at a import/gateway that produces/reads these dbf files?
<mdupont> can you make a set of files with sample data in them
<mdupont> that has only 10 records or so each?
<alandd> the product is in germany.  they are sending runtime log files. Must decode them.
<alandd> Read from database into client application.  Get user input.  Shove new data out to database for currnt closed source app to use.  I think I could make a subset.
<mdupont> cool
<mdupont> bag it up
<mdupont> and ship it over
<mdupont> then i can estimate the effort
Nick change: mdupont -> work-md
<siesel> dcmwai: IMHO reports is still missing two functionalities: 1. the "universal" backend, jcater created, which isn't finished yet 
<dcmwai> siesel: what is the universal backend?
<siesel> 2. a way to calculate "the summ of formula results" like the total of all calculated prices (=quantity*price_per_piece)
<siesel> the universal backend is something like fo-xslt in xslt. i.e. a way to create fully customized report output
<siesel> i.e. you can say: <text>MyText</text> etc. 
<siesel> or something like that, (you should ask jcater)
<dcmwai> oh...
<dcmwai> siesel: so it will easier the report create?
<dcmwai> hum there are some db driver update...
<siesel> no, but it will allow you to write customized reports.
Action: dcmwai know nothing yet.. so will have to trial and error ...
<siesel> i.e. the result will depend more on your report definition than on the output backend
<dcmwai> oh.. 
<dcmwai> I think I got it...
Action: siesel would recommend to try to adapt the invpo report to some other query. Shouldn't be that difficult.
Action: dcmwai agree with that :)
<btami> dcmwai: now we have only SimpleTabulation layout markup for reports
<dcmwai> siesel: mind If I ask you ... how you run that invpo.grd? gdcvs invpo.grd?
<dcmwai> btami: that isn't enough.. :(
<btami> it's limited to produse table like output only
<dcmwai> we need more... more ... :)
<btami> yes
Action: dcmwai is very greddy
<btami> universal is jcater's next generation layout markup
<btami> unfortunately it's stalled
<dcmwai> btami: How long it will take?
<dcmwai> if you can guess it :)
<siesel> dcmwai: grcvs -f html -d /tmp/test.html arias_invpo.grd purchaseid=4 
<dcmwai> ah...
<dcmwai> DB000: UnicodeError: UTF-8 decoding error: invalid data 
<dcmwai> If I put a -S there it will be like this..
<dcmwai> siesel: Something about UTf-8 again :( ... 	
<siesel> strange, as I don't use utf-8 in there.
<siesel> can you try without the -f html?
<dcmwai> siesel: No.
<dcmwai> still the same even if without -f
<siesel> what is the line above the encoding error? where does it occure?
<ajmitch> hi
<dcmwai> DB000:   File "/usr/lib/python2.2/xmlrpclib.py", line 601, in end
<dcmwai> DB000:     return f(self, join(self._data, ""))
<dcmwai> DB000:   File "/usr/lib/python2.2/xmlrpclib.py", line 643, in end_string
<dcmwai> DB000:     data = _decode(data, self._encoding)
<dcmwai> DB000:   File "/usr/lib/python2.2/xmlrpclib.py", line 141, in _decode
<dcmwai> DB000:     data = unicode(data, encoding)
<dcmwai> There are more if you want...
<siesel> hi ajmitch
<dcmwai> siesel: on the query box :)
<dcmwai> hello ajmitch
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<dcmwai> Hum I see the company address and vendor address was an out in the grd files but it didn't seem to show... :(
<dcmwai> on in xml they do
<siesel> yes, that's just the simple tabulation, for address etc. we need the universal backend, or have to write customized XSLT files.
<dcmwai> Ah.... Where do I start... :)
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<dcmwai> siesel: Well. I've got that problem slove... path problem...
<dcmwai> Now it time to Xslt.. again...
<siesel> I took a look at the universal backend.
<siesel> It still has a long road to go, because its a really universal approach.
<siesel> So XSLT will be better for the moment.
<siesel> There are XSLT files for simpletabulation, which can be adapted and changed to support an address etc.
<dcmwai> siesel: where it is?
<dcmwai> however... I can get -S working but can't make it work like foolbule so that it is display in the html files :(
<btami> siesel: why not creating a view from tables with sum etc. 
<dcmwai> something is not right somewhere.. (on my configuration)
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<btami> i mean do some "preprocessing" before caling reports
<siesel> yes, that would be the pretty solution
<btami> i mean sql preprocessing
<siesel> I just choose this way because of maintaining compatibilty with ARIAS
<siesel> btami: yes, I understand. It would be easier to use 1-2 views instead of 5-6 tables.
<btami> ther is no way to do temp views in ARIAS ?
<btami> i'v used this style in my old foxpro app
<siesel> IMHO it would be easy to add some views to the schema description of arias itself, but that is something dcmwai has to do :)
<btami> :)
<siesel> creating temp views would have to be done by gnue-reports, and that ... is a bit difficult to implement
<btami> siesel: i'v suggested to do it in ARIAS :)
<siesel> :)
<dcmwai> siesel: har easy to add some views to the schema description of arias itself??
<dcmwai> ok.. so it is arias jobs.. :)
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<dcmwai> btami: how is you suggestion work?
<btami> dcmwai: i'm sorry, i have no ARIAS nor php
<btami> so my suggestion is yust teoretical
<dcmwai> btami: can you tell me theoritically:)
<btami> to replace missing formular reports thing with
<btami> creating a view
<btami> with something like: select sum(foo) as x, etc
<dcmwai> ok
<dcmwai> Then what to do with it?
<btami> then you can use it as a datasource, and use single field,summ
<btami> in reports
<SynrG> good morning
<dcmwai> did mysql support view?
<dcmwai> morning.. SynrG
<btami> dcmwai: don't know
Action: btami is a firebird guy
Action: dcmwai don't think so...
<btami> hi SynrG
Action: dcmwai is stuck now... maybe it is time to use xslt...
Nick change: btami -> btami_lunch
Action: dcmwai is signning off anyone have something want to tell me?
<dcmwai> ...
Action: dcmwai go offline...
Action: dcmwai waves
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<rerwer> Hoderr folks. "rewer" is FredFrog -- and this machine is speaking Portugese again.
<LuftHans> have it talk to alandd, he speaks Portugese :)
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<alandd> rerwer: portugese?  where?
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<rerwer> alandd, Brazil, I guess. This thing seems to be running under some scriptkludge named Scoop 2003, which comes from Brazil.
<rerwer> There seems to be some Brazilian guy among the people who share this machine.
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<rerwer> 'Nuther stunningly exciting day at the keyboard. ttfn.
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Action: siesel is searching the docbook report example.
<siesel> does anyone has an idea why it is removed from cvs without traces?
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<btami> hi all
<btami> have you seen this: http://www.rekallrevealed.org/
<jcater> yeah
<jbailey> Is that safe to open at work?
<jcater> depends
<jcater> are you an anti-QT shop?
<jcater> :)
<jbailey> Yeah, but noone but me knows it. =)
<jbailey> (I was more nervous at what was going to be 'revealed')
<dtm> haha
<dtm> jbailey: why, Rekall, of course!
<dtm> ;)
<jbailey> I was walking down Queen st. after watching the Matrix on Sunday evening, and the local TV station had the TV in the window flipped to SexTV.
<jbailey> he code is known to build under the more common recent distributions (RH, Suse, Mandrake and Slakware) with KDE3;
<jbailey> Why is it that Slack and Mandrake get mentioned and Debian doesn't?
<jcater> debian?
<jbailey> considering that we basically match RH's install based according to netcraft.
<jcater> what's that?
<jbailey> Shut up, windows-lover.
<wendall911> jbailey: Debian is an exclusive club to some
<jbailey> wendall911: In what way?
<wendall911> jbailey: it is just some peoples perception is all, not my own...in the way they deal with their distribution tree mostly I think
<nickr> it is an exclusive club
<wendall911> jbailey: i've heard people say that at Linux users groups...I always argue, but they all like RH, so what do they know ;)
<nickr> debian has the best private parties
<wendall911> heh
<nickr> you think I'm kidding
<nickr> its why becoming a DD is so difficult.
<dtm> http://sql-info.de/mysql/gotchas.html  
<dtm> http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=86286&cid=7504902
<siesel> jcater: do you know where the docbook reports example is ?
Action: wendall911 looks
<jcater> no
<wendall911> dtm: funny
<dtm> *tee hee*
<jcater> siesel: you still working in the Universal/ tree?
Action: jcater is itching to do some reports work
<dtm> those two urls seem to be the epitome of why to not use mysql
<dtm> as in, "friends dont let friends..."
<siesel> jcater: I commit everything I did some minutes ago.
<jcater> I saw
<dtm> however I'm very passively interested to learn more about pgsql's high availability and fault tolerance
<dtm> which i hear is new
<jbailey> wendall911: I only wonder because compared to RedHat I don't see how we could be.
<siesel> if it doesn't fit with your concepts, please change.
<jbailey> Our Bug database is online, the packages and source are all easy to get.
<jbailey> It's just worth knowing for when I deal with this.
<jbailey> things, rather.
<wendall911> jbailey: agreed
<siesel> I did some basic stuff, but will try xml-fo and passivetex before looking deeper at the issues the parser has with unknown namespaces. 
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<jcater> wow, http://sql-info.de/mysql/gotchas.html makes for an interesting (and long) read
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<jamest> you know you're a hopeless geek when you take the time to read technical implementation details about a product you'll never use
<jamest> er, um, wait, wrong channel 
<jamest> ;)
<dtm> you know you're a hopeless geek when you connect to irc with the nick 'jamest'
<dtm> ;)
<dtm> so... anyone who does that...
<dtm> just might be a geek.
<dtm> be on the lookout.
<jcater> jamest: was there any question?
<dtm> also, if you *talk* to someone named dtm
<dtm> then.
<dtm> well, then, too.
<jbailey> No talking.  Only typing allowed here.
Action: jcater stops talking towards the screen, then
<dtm> then you're pretty much guaranteed to be off the rocker of quantum geekdom
<jamest> jbailey: sometimes it helps people operate the keyboard if they can say the letters outloud
Action: dtm . o O ( Helloooo, computer. )
<jamest> jay
<jamest> ay
<jamest> em
<jamest> ee
<jamest> es
<jamest> tee
<jcater> wow
<jamest> jamest!
<jcater> he spelled it right
<dtm> did it work?
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<dtm> Hello?
<jamest> must have, i spelled it right
<dtm> Is this thing on?
Action: dtm mutters to the keybd
<dtm> OMG.  now, irc is narrating my very thoughts and behaviors!!!
<jcater> argh
<jcater> subversions is slooowwww today
<dtm> coz just now, i really *did* .. mutter.... to .. uh.
<jbailey>  So, you've got the correct foreign key syntax and remembered to add TYPE=InnoDB; to tables where referential integrity is important (which would usually be all of them - and if not, what's the data doing in a SQL database in the first place?).
<jbailey> Mysql supports referential integrity?
<jbailey> When did that start?
<dtm> jbailey: now that i knew of
<jcater> no
<jbailey> I could use that in alot of places.
<jcater> InnoDB supports it somewhat
<dtm> jbailey: you use mysql?
<jcater> which mysql can use as a backend
<jbailey> All over the place.
<jcater> iirc
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<jamest> dtm: we've tried to lead jbailey away from his masochistic mysql ways
<jamest> but some people you just can't reach
<jamest> but as soon as the weather warms up a bit in canada and the roads thaw we'll be able to reach him
<chillywilly> hey we're swicthing to posgtres
<chillywilly> w00t!
<chillywilly> ;P
<siesel> chillywilly: congrats 
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> We are pleased to inform you that you will receive a credit on your next billing statement.* Please be advised that you will still be charged for taxes and incidental charges such as international calls that are not covered in your monthly plan fee. *Up to a maximum of $40.00
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<jbailey> "Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why
<jbailey> several of us died of tuberculosis. "
<chillywilly> woops, I pasted that in the wrong tab
<chillywilly> oh well ;P
<chillywilly> that was for you dtm 
<chillywilly> I get a free month too
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<dneighbo> :)
<dneighbo> no dtm  eh
<mdupont> hey dneighbo you know the minddog?
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<chillywilly> dneighbo: are you disappointed?
Action: chillywilly sees dtm 
<chillywilly> there he is
<chillywilly> right there --> dtm
<chillywilly> I think it is a virtual impossibility to have an irc conversation with dneighbo ;)
<jcater> true dat
<jcater> works more like an email conversation
Action: jcater has been telling him to upgrade from his carrier-pigeon backbone
<chillywilly> heheh
Action: chillywilly got the FSF Bulletin
Action: jcater got two for some strange reason
Nick change: mdupont -> zzz-md-zzzz
<chillywilly> man this thing has lots of text ;)
<chillywilly> jcater: are you an associate member?
<chillywilly> I was thinking of signing up
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<jcater> chillywilly: yeah
<jcater> well, kinda
<jcater> they haven't exactly stayed on top of it
<jcater> I think I was one of the first few to join
<jcater> (like first 10 or so)
<jcater> but they charged my card once
<jcater> (this was many months ago)
<jcater> but my credit card # changed
<jcater> and I've told them several times it has changed
<chillywilly> ok
<jcater> but they haven't corrected it
<chillywilly> heh
<jcater> you'd think they'd want the $$$
<chillywilly> guess hey don't want your money ;)
<chillywilly> they
<jcater> it's green too :(
<dneighbo> chillywilly: its not impossible to have a conversatoin with me
<dneighbo> you just have to be REALLY patient :)
Nick change: dneighbo -> derek
<chillywilly> no one is THAT patient
<chillywilly> ;P
<jcater> w00t
<jcater> my datasource branch now works with gnue forms
Action: jcater does a happy dance
<jcater> well, it's more of a head bob
<jcater> now if I had any clue how to use appserver
<jcater> I'd test it
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<chillywilly> jcater: pretty-fied eh?
<jcater> it's so purdy now
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--- Wed Nov 19 2003