yeah, the question was kinda lame. cool ajmitch: so what's up, man? you can go to #interchange if you wanna throw down dtm: talked to a friend today who got dumped with an interchange install to manage ajmitch: whew. does he have any IC experience? if not, then he's in for a *big* surprise. :) i think gnuenterprise should be rewritten in Perl! nope jdv79: have at it! and no perl experience either no, better yet, VB poor chap ajmitch: yay ajmitch: well he doesn't need perl experience, but he does need comprehension of the architecture, vocabulary, and community resource layout in a furious crash course. or he needs to outsource it what are the competing projects to gnuenterprise? dtm: figures jdv79: peoplesoft, Baan (if that still exists), SAP, etc dtm: I said I could probably put him in touch with IC gurus ajmitch: toss him over to #interchange, or i'll see if i can take it over if he wants. we can assess the situation. not the big boys, i meant for SMB or SME-however you want to acronym it out. dtm: kthx mmhmm. dtm: dunno if he's on irc :) jdv79: well uhhhh. whoever's in *that* space, then. ajmitch: that should be remedied! :) yes, well I just talked to him down the street an hour ago :) just thought someone in the gnuenterprise channel would know such things. thanks though. the gnue hackers might know we irc lurkers may not :) irc is the best, because of the multitude of newbie questions. you basically need literally a crash course. what i did for chillywilly was we spent several hours on the phone, and several more on irc, over the course of about a week, just in preparatory concepts and in mapping his prior ecommerce and database engineering experience to it ah jdv79: ok well maybe you're not familiar with the scope of the project then. but it's a virtually generic architecture and RAD for building enterprise apps, for unifying existing apps, etc jdv79: so it covers accounting, ERP, and all kinds of rapid data entry, and interoperability with other apps jdv79: so most of the competition is heavily proprietary and expensive, in any scope i thought so - i'm actually developing a lighter weight inhouse ERO for a window factory-its why i have interest in gnue. jdv79: so it's totally open ended in all directions based on that core infrastructure, framework, and app set jdv79: and it's already in commercial production, since long ago the docs dont say that-interesting jdv79: i talk a good game but i'm not an engineer, so you just wait for jcater, reinhard, jamest, derek/dneighbo, or seisel and friends as far as competing projects id say there are similarities at www.4d.com, www.alphora.com, www.webputty.com all closed source proprietary commercial software i'm just a jr. developer myself. thanks for the info dtm. of course. dtom are you on the clock? so gnue is the only OS incarnation of an ERP? oh. no. gnue gnue is not really an erp. yet. the first gnue is a 'but' there was some spanish guy in here earlier with some spanish frazolla.net project or something. of course, thats not spelled right. its got finanacials, manufacturing, HR, sales, etc... if its not an ERP then what do you call that collection of things:) it has none of those things yet i am pretty sure :) look on sourceforge it has none of those things, yet :) theres webfrontends and such, that do what you want. yeah, thats my question - when will those pieces of the puzzle be implemented and not too crashy the goal here is you download the framework and then you implement them dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.163.220) left irc: "Client exiting" since, its not that much work. and then you give back to the community. adam5: cool, want to do it for gnue then? :) ajmitch: smile. Action: ajmitch smiles ok, so thats the development model - i thought there was a roadmap and a set of milestones or something like that. i dont knwo where i would find the time, between irc and television. now what did I smile for? hehe jdv79: there are probably people that might be thinking about working on it. they're still polishing the framework although, it seems nice enough. lots of framework polish. some buffing too maybe a little apholstery. yeah i dont know if it's chrome or stainless steel or teflon or tupperware. putty is a good desc i think. jdv79: yeah just keep lurkin and talk all ya want; everyone reads the logs and scrollbacks. what did I do? lurkin... heh. theres nothing wrong with lurking on irc. it wasn't a complaint. if you come sit over here, you can see inside this girls window. shes about to get in the shower. adam5: bahahahaha you got a digicam? snap some shots... no, lurking is an *order* you *will* lurk here. you will ramble, inquire, fumble, share, mildly troll, satire ....... and in the end, I think we'll all have grown a little bit. *smack* damnit jim. the lsd is for the hippies. i will pass that note on to jim if i see him er, no i wont. it's logged. there's a jamest jim kirk. :/ i dont know if his last name is Kirk sorry james t kirk yeah it *oughtta* be his last name, imho Captain of the GNU Enterprise *hahaha* yeah. ok ttyl ever'buddy dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.163.220) joined #gnuenterprise. later ill take pictures for you. Vee (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ts46v-07.otn-c1.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection Vee (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ts46v-07.otn-c1.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Vee (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ts46v-07.otn-c1.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection Vee (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ts46v-07.otn-c1.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Vee (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ts46v-07.otn-c1.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: "Client exiting" Vee (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ts46v-07.otn-c1.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jdv79 (~jman@u1057064.ul.warwick.net) left #gnuenterprise ("Client Exiting"). Vee (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ts46v-07.otn-c1.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. 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Nick change: gsoti -> gsoti_away dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.163.220) left irc: "Client exiting" gsoti_away: whats up? ajmitch (~ajmitch@wlg1-port26.jetstart.maxnet.co.nz) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-227.wasp.net.au) left #gnuenterprise ("Client exiting"). ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise. SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-227.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: mdupont -> md-afk nenhum (juanjo@dynamic-195-235.dialup.chalmers.se) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: md-afk -> mdupont ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" Nick change: SachaS -> SachaZzz jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-71-169-0.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (~jcater@cpe-066-061-071-147.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-71-169-0.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) left irc: "Client exiting" ToyMan (~stuq@user-0cevdks.cable.mindspring.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: dneighbo -> derek dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.94.80.64) joined #gnuenterprise. dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.94.80.64) left irc: "Client exiting" dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.94.80.64) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (~jbailey@CPE00062579efac-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (~jbailey@CPE00062579efac-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: "Client exiting" dimas_ (~dimas@195.218.177.46) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) nenhum (juanjo@dynamic-195-235.dialup.chalmers.se) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) dehgenog (~michael@pool-68-237-20-209.ny325.east.verizon.net) left irc: "Leaving" Nick change: gsoti_away -> gsoti mdupont: hello Action: gsoti pinging mdupont hi gsoti hows it going? do we know each other? Action: gsoti 100% packet return ahhh only through the logs of this channel dimas (~dimas@195.218.177.46) joined #gnuenterprise. actually for myself its been okay, for some of my friends at work, not so more layoffs hmm where do you work? how can i help you? I was reading about your review of various fsf systems et al in the logs ahh yes you are interested in that? how is that all going? ok i have worked out the ultimate address table :) but right now i am installing phpgw right now I have been working getting a deb system going and just about have it done and getting a simple server up and running great deb is fun! suse 8.1 does a few more things than is needed for multi boot machine but once I got that cleared up suse 8.1 works without a hitch, yeah now finishing deb i dont like suse that much and allow it to boot separately it is always so painful to install software from grub you should have tried RH mother's day release several years ago Action: mdupont does not like booting not if it can be avoided I think deb has a better deal but you need to read a bit first so what is your interest in all this stuff? I am learning python but also am interested in the various packages once the tools are complete ok i cannot even get gnue running :( now is the time to get a normalized db schema, which is where I think you are headed this f**king wxwindow does not run have you determined the cause yet? yes i am headed towards that gsoti: no i gave up on gnue for now i cannot be bothered your ideas of a "composite" schema is actually pretty good, do you have a plan of attack? it seems that i am the only one to have this problem yes oic my plan of attack to generate the schema what is the direction from a set of patterns have you seen my results so far? patterns? yes no patterns where are they located? http://introspector.sourceforge.net/2003/11/dcl-introspector-0.1.tgz that is a rough start I will take a look , but l8r tell me what you have found thanks for the link this could be great for this project, but may take 6 mos or more can you summarize? yes go basically you have parts of the model that are reoccuring like for example this changed_on, changed_by yes well changed is an event that you want to track, right? k so why not model the events directly and then attach them to things like a generalized audit of activitiy? you can treat the events as first class citizens yes but the thing is, k you can model the activity in general, even if you have specific fields for example you dont need a central even table Action: gsoti listening now you dont need a central event table because you can generate even the changed_on field if you want based on a central event *model* basically, i am modelling the business logic at a higher level than the db and where would this get logged? and then generating the db model from that or stored oic well you might want to have the original changedon, changedby field in each table that uses it that is a low level detail that depends but the thing is that you *dont* want to have to add them all in by hand only problem with a central table is size and you *dont* want to have a manual query for each on yes thats right once they get so big access slows down go so my point is that an even table might not be what you need k so my point is that an event table might not be what you need options? the option is to track the events : Action: gsoti listens again 1. per customer 2. per transation type 3. in a central table but the issue is that you dont want to have to manually do this we need a central definition of the events possible and the objects the apply to ahh yeah! and the means to generate the tables from that definition s/the/they ? the physical storage is just a detail they? so this would be a tool that at install time you would run to create the schema or "trackable items" yes cool well at generation time or at install time is that out on the link yes in that tgz 'k you have a system to define patterns instancaite them why would it need to be dynamic? and translate them to sql and perl and other langauges dynamic? perl? it does not need to be dynamic you go yeah perl perl perl = easy to use you go I'm not sure I'm following the part on patterns completely example exampl e another question... the instantiation you talked about event("Created"); okay that makes the event object created it instanciates the pattern of event with the name Created now, the definition of event : but somehow you have to store the event , yes? the results of the item you want to track? sub event # an action that is tracked by who did it and when { my $action = shift; my $cname = $action . "Event"; class($cname); # we add e AddField($repository,'Contact',$action, TypeRef($repository,'Event')); contains('Contact',$cname,$action); Reference($cname,"Location","Address"); TimeRange($cname); Collection($cname,"Resource","cost"); Collection($cname,"Resource","revenue"); # watches that are active on this event? for this customer? i have not followed any of the conversation but i saw this... perl perl = easy to use } and all i can say is you are smoking crack mdupont: they use python here and from what I have learned so far it is easy to develop in gsoti: i know they use python here 'k i use perl and am learning python fwiw: perl is great but it is not easy to use and perl is easy to use for code generation Action: gsoti I think the audit idea using an event sounds good, mdupont: timeline on this at all?? timeline? 6 months Action: derek is curious you say you abandoned GNU Enterprise no i have not abandoned then why here talking about other software? just cannot be bothered Action: gsoti ? what does introspector do? to deal with this wxwindows crap the two sentence version the introspector manages the metamodel and generates sql and later will generate code for the gnue Action: gsoti submerges and goes into listnen mode if you have it generate GNU Enterprise schema xml basically it is like the MDA from OMG then GNU Enterprise schema will make the sql for you you can plug in various things Action: derek is fairly anti full object derek: yes, my plan it to generate gnue schemas when i get gnue running some dat day after years of dealing with it in producttion environment it has practical problems object data is like visual basic well, you need a multi layer model it makes 80 percent of the work so easy it's incredible pure OO is difficult with an SQL db but the 20percent it doesnt do well you spend 99% of your time fighting to make work mdupont: im used to use an OODB cool i.e. im talking that PURE objects dont work even with object storage derek: ok it makes 80% of the work beautiful but falls down on 20% of the work like for complex multidimensional relationships and the part it falls down on is a BITCH to work around you are then forced to overcomplicate EVERYTHING else well i am not using full OO or use horrible work around i am using higher levels patterns trying to decribe things as they are Action: gsoti saw this coming and then map that onto a lower level model as appropiate a good system needs to be a hybrid one size does not fit all use objects where it makes sense and you get that true advantage (that 80%) but allow a good way to handle the 20% exception yeah i agree you need flexibility and you need power and you need a way to automate this stupid repetitive programming tasks it does not matter what system you use the point is that given a good model model, you can automate that %80 to generate code and increase the quality of the system other thing is that objects are really fast for some things and REALLY slow for others well, i agree with you on your assesment of object fwiw: this is the database i dealt a lot with http://www.intersystems.com/cache/index.html about the time i stopped working with it they were trying to make the 20% suck part a sql solution yeah cache i have read about this in the past its all Mumps based mumps is well an interesting programming language makes perl look fun well seeing how you can make all the constructs single letters on same line that does not help me too much cache is expensive Action: gsoti I haven't heard about mumps in a while, used to be a lot of jobs for it is not caml a similar language? functional/oo? ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/comp.lang.mumps/M_Technology_and_MUMPS_Language_FAQ,_Part_1_2 (Or "M") Massachusetts General Hospital Utility Multi-Programming System. A programming language with extensive tools for the support of database management systems. MUMPS was originally used for medical records and is now widely used where multiple users access the same databases simultaneously, e.g. banks, stock exchanges, travel agencies, hospitals. Action: mdupont is running scared of mumps gsoti: about the timeline i have taken a step back yes amd am getting into phpgw 'k i will first be creating generators to produce phpgw compatible code i don't know anything about phpgw including php and sql shit basically, i need to get into this groupware stuff and working out my backend i think the easist for me will be to produce a new dotgnu backend Action: gsoti I'm not going to touch that one that can be used from phpgw via xmlrpc