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<thierry_> morning all
<Vee> heya thierry
<Vee> how goes it?
<thierry_> quite well (very busy :(
<thierry_> you  ?
<Vee> been trying to rest up the last couple days, my back has been hurting.. think it pulled a few muscles while playing with the kids.. seems to be much better this morning..
<thierry_> glad to ear that you feel better
<thierry_> are you on the gnue4sb project ?
<Vee> yea
<Vee> havent been able to do much, however
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<mdupont> hi all
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<alandd> LuftHans: Hello.
<alandd> LuftHans: check your email.
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<LuftHans> alandd: which mail?
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<reinhard> hey
<reinhard> today is dec 1st
<reinhard> i hope you are all aware that today is sarge's release date
<reinhard> ;-)
Action: Vee is in complete withdrawal for new packages since the comprimises
<chillywilly> is it going to be released though?
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<dsmith> Sarge? Cool.
<dsmith> Has anyone here used arch and subversion and is willing to give me a comparison?
<Vee> dsmith: http://better-scm.berlios.de/
<jbailey> Anyone here know where RedHat keeps their equivalent of changeLog.Debian.gz?
<dsmith> Vee: Thanks, but that is not findable by my browser
<Vee> dsmith: ? loads up here.. in firebird.  What browser are you using? 
<dsmith> Vee: mozilla-firebird Debian Testing
<Vee> interesting
<Vee> you arent blocking germany or something are you? :)
<dsmith> I've noticed lots of dns wackiness lately.
<dsmith> Not blocking de as far as I know.
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<siesel> hi
<Vee> dsmith: well, if you somehow manage to load it at some point, it's a farily nice comparison between several rcs out there.. 
<dsmith> Vee: I may have seen that. It sounds familar.
<dsmith> Vee: I was hoping for some "personal experience".
<Vee> they compare cvs, aegis, arch, bitkeeper, monotone, opencm, and subversion
<Vee> yea, that's always nice to have a live person with the experience to convey an opion from
<Vee> sorry I cant help you with that.. :)
<dsmith> It's ok.
<dsmith> Subversion seem a lot like cvs, which I'm very familiar with.
<dtm> jbailey: that would be the spec file in the SRPM
<dsmith> arch seems to do things very differently.
<dtm> jbailey: you install the SRPM with 'rpm -iv foo' and then look in /usr/src/redhat/SPECS/foo.spec
<dsmith> arch seems to have a lot more fiddling with to set up a repository than subversion.
<dsmith> But arch is in testing, and subversion is in unstable, and won't move for a while yet.
Action: dsmith will be setting up a vcs soon.
<jbailey> dtm: Ah okay, thanks.
<jbailey> I was hoping they'd have it in a file I could just look at.
<dtm> jbailey: they do, and that's it.
<dtm> jbailey: it's at the bottom of that file
<ajmitch> how quaint ;)
<ajmitch> having to install the source just to get a packaging changelog :)
<dtm> yeah, since that's what they changed
<dtm> duh
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<chillywilly> anyone know if Gnome 2.4 is in debian sid?
<chillywilly> looks like it is
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<wendall911> chillywilly: unless they just added it, it wasn't a couple weeks ago
<chillywilly> well a lot of packages are now 2.4.x
<chillywilly> so I think they did just upload 2.4 packages
<wendall911> chillywilly: cool, it is much better than 2.2
<reinhard> chillywilly: most of gnome is 2.4
<reinhard> well i think
<reinhard> close to all gnome in sid is 2.4
<reinhard> and most of it already made it into sarge
<chillywilly> well I wanna give it a whirl ;)
<wendall911> chillywilly: correction, it was sarge i had 2.2 on
<chillywilly> I installed gnome-core but there are a ton more packages to install
<chillywilly> gnome by itself seems to pull a lot in ;P
Action: dsmith whaps chillywilly over the head with a troll footprint for relying on m$ clone "software" instead of unsign linux like a Real Man.
<dsmith> !! s/unsign/using
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<chillywilly> what?
<dtm> i second that.
<chillywilly> how does one use "linux" like a "Real Man"
<dtm> ;)
<reinhard> what?
<reinhard> linux is for whimps
<reinhard> real men use the hurd
<reinhard> ;-)
<wendall911> don't you mean GNU/Linux ;)
<dsmith> chillywilly: Obviously, without all that nasty gnome stuff.
<dsmith> ;^)
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<dsmith> Well, they finally figured out that root exploit used on the Debian servers.
<nickr> oh yea?
<Vee> details?
<ajmitch_> spill all, please
<dsmith> http://lists.debian.org/debian-security-announce/debian-security-announce-2003/msg00212.html
<ajmitch_> oh my
<ajmitch_> now that is serious - kernel exploit in the wild
<dsmith> Only saving grace is that it's not a remote exploit.  You must be a user on the box.
<wendall911> dsmith: there is that weakness with any system if you have access to the box -> rootkit
<chillywilly> heh, gnome-terminal opened that link in konqueror
<chillywilly> goofy
Action: ajmitch_ wonders when it'll hit slashdot
<chillywilly> evilution doesn't want to connect to my IMAP server
<chillywilly> wth, gnome-terminal does not like irssi
<dsmith> wendall911: Only if there is an exploit that a rootkit can take advantage of.
<wendall911> dsmith: if i can gain physical access to a machine, it is rooted unless the box is very very secure internally
<ajmitch_> you don't need physical access
<ajmitch_> just shell access in this case :)
<wendall911> dsmith: ie, floppy and cdrom boot disabled in bios and bios password, which can be circumvented with a flash, etc, etc
<wendall911> ajmitch_: ahhhh, 
<wendall911> that's not good
<dsmith> wendall911: Of course.
<dsmith> wendall911: Or just pull the drive out.
<wendall911> dsmith: the things you lean when you lock yourself out of your system ;)
<ajmitch_> thankfully the main path of attach (shell accounts) are mainly disabled from outside on my home box
<ajmitch_> however that doesn't stop things like remote execution via bad php scripts :)
<dsmith> wendall911: Unless you do somthing like change some disk structures and use custom kernels and fs ustils.
<ajmitch_> even then you only make it harder, not impossible :)
<dsmith> There is *always* a way to do something.
<ajmitch_> otherwise the computer wouldn't be very useful :)
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<md-intrspctr> hey chillywilly
<chillywilly> hi
<md-intrspctr> hey i got a new computer 
<chillywilly> w00t
<md-intrspctr> for my gnuenterprise test server
<md-intrspctr> and i will give you an account on it
<md-intrspctr> if you like
<md-intrspctr> it is a donation from me to the project
<md-intrspctr> to help setup a server to show and host potential customers
<md-intrspctr> and to show off gnuenterprise features
<chillywilly> :-o
<Vee> upgrade your kernel or the penguin will own you
<md-intrspctr> :)
<md-intrspctr> up or out
<md-intrspctr> they say in business
<md-intrspctr> i have gotten over 10 computers in ebay
<chillywilly> dtm: why?
<md-intrspctr> and will be setting up linux business servers
<md-intrspctr> and reselling them
<md-intrspctr> want to make a distro
<chillywilly> oh, this thing isn't opening tabs for /msg
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<chillywilly> bah
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<chillywilly> heheh
<nickr> DIE
<chillywilly> whose IP is that?
<dtm> chillywilly: Fred_Frog
<Vee> who do you think? :)
<chillywilly> heheheh
<chillywilly> I thought they weren't going to ban anyone ;)
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<Vee> Fred_Frog's not just anyone
<Vee> he's special
<chillywilly> haha
<md-intrspctr> reinhard: i have met with the guy at the india curry house.
<md-intrspctr> he installed redhat linux and was very impressed
<reinhard> md-intrspctr: cool
<reinhard> night all
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<phenix> god damnit
<phenix> is anyone awake?
<chillywilly> fuck no
<Vee> that's a silly question
<phenix> i had #fedora on /cig
<wendall911> Coffee is hot still
<phenix> and it still kills mys crollback.
<phenix> obnoxious.;
<phenix> what do you7 need to code
<phenix> er., misfire.
<phenix> start tlaking and stuff
<phenix> though
<phenix> this channel was interesting for a day
<chillywilly> huh?
<phenix> decent
<phenix> conversation
<phenix> for a day
Action: chillywilly prepares the trout
<wendall911> anybody here tell me what the sql standard max characters for a text field is?
Action: wendall911 slaps phenix with trout for chillywilly
<phenix> i think thats um.  platform dependent
<phenix> what database server are you using?
Action: Vee pokes jamest
<phenix> dont slap me you fuck
<phenix> i was going ot help you
<phenix> now your shit out of luck.
<phenix> the maximum binary blob size for relational databases is 1.5 bits.
<dtm> then that means I can hose phenix down without regret
<phenix> you sick bastard.
<wendall911> phenix: just wondering what the standard for sql compliance was...needs to work on all major dbms
<phenix> honestly
<phenix> i dont think text is sql compliant.
<phenix> nope.
<phenix> text is not.
<phenix> sorry.
<phenix> move along.
Action: wendall911 goes to look this up
Action: chillywilly drop kicks phenix into the next channel
<dtm> :)
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<ajmitch_> hello friendly people
<dtm> hihihi
<dsmith> text is not in the standard, but it's *much* more useful, imho.
<phenix> hey dickhead.
<wendall911> dsmith: is there a size limit that I can work against that won't get me into much trouble?
<phenix> http://www.itl.nist.gov/fipspubs/fip127-2.htm
<chillywilly> is there an op in the house?
<chillywilly> phenix needs a beat down
<chillywilly> ;P
<phenix> 5.  BIT VARYING max length in bits                      *     8000
<phenix> beat that down
<phenix> chode.
<dsmith> wendall911: I don't remember the limit, but it's pretty big.
<chillywilly> oh, you can use google
<chillywilly> WOW
<phenix> let see you find another place with that information.
<phenix> i bet you cant
<ajmitch_> what is it with this place?
<phenix> whats wrong with this place
<chillywilly> I dunno lately we seems to be attracting people with serious social problems
Action: ajmitch_ nods
<phenix> blow me.
<dtm> :-I
<chillywilly> they cannot effectively communicate w/o being assholes
<wendall911> phenix: Google string: 5.  BIT VARYING about 597,000 references
<wendall911> many of which contain that document
<phenix> you jackass
<phenix> before i pasted it
<phenix> you wouldnt have known to look for bit varying
<chillywilly> wendall911: there's no point is trying to reason with an unreasonable person ;)
<wendall911> i asked because I was being lazy not because I don't know how to  use google
<phenix> you cant search for the text i pasted, thats cheating.
<phenix> *ROLL*
<phenix> i wasnt talking to you anyway
<phenix> i *still* dont think chillywilly could find it.
<wendall911> phenix: he probably has a copy as many of the other people here
<phenix> yep
<phenix> probably.
<dsmith> wendall911: http://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/datatype-character.html#DATATYPE-CHARACTER-TABLE claims about 1Gb
<phenix> lol.
<phenix> dsmith: you werent paying attention, huh?
<wendall911> dsmith: am looking for the smallest right now...checking MySQL docs now
<phenix> MS MSQL has a maximum rowsize of 8K.
<phenix> im not sure if that includes binary/ntext
<wendall911> phenix: if you had half a clue, you'd know why I was looking...but I suppose you don't know about serialized arrays
<phenix> wedall: bye.
<dsmith> phenix: I guess not.
<phenix> sigh.
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> what's up in here today?
Action: dtm hoses jamest down
<Vee> heya jamest
<jamest> problems?
<phenix> mmhmm.
<Vee> jamest: your scanner form still in use somewhere? 
<phenix>  zyz Ignoring ALL messages from *!~WENDALLC@TORUS.NIDAHO.NET
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<chillywilly> phenix: grow up
<Vee> jamest: you dont happen to use pdf format with it, do you? :)
<jamest> Vee: yeah, actually I need to fix it as something in sid broke it for them
<phenix>  zyz Ignoring ALL messages from *!DANIELB@CPE-24-167-193-166.WI.RR.COM
<phenix> :/
<chillywilly> yaaay
<dtm> lucky chillywilly  :/
<dtm> i wanna get /ignored by phenix too  :/
<jamest> i'll bbi10m,  if there are problems in here then let me know
<Vee> jamest: seems like an update to the imaging module busted it some time back.. 
<chillywilly> dtm: try harder ;)
<dtm> chillywilly: well, crud
<phenix>  zyz *!~dtm@r1.txwifi.com is not in the ignorance list!
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Action: Vee is off for a few hrs.. kids and all.. 
<chillywilly> not or now?
<chillywilly> you can do it dtm
<wendall911> dtm: let phenix know that someone on #fedora is looking for him...he better hurry
Action: dsmith reboots to try out a qube2 restore cd.
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<chillywilly> I thought the question was what is the limit on a text field
<chillywilly> size limit
<wendall911> chillywilly: it was, just wanted to work against that then look for the lowest of the dbms in my list
<chillywilly> ok
<dtm> phenix: 17:06 < wendall911> dtm: let phenix know that someone on #fedora is looking for him...he better hurry
<wendall911> lol
<phenix> lol
<phenix> i dont get it.
<dtm> am I being ignored, please
<dtm> ?
<dtm> yet?
<phenix> NO
<dtm> :<
<phenix>  zyz    #C++:    PUBLIC
<phenix>  zyz    #FEDORA:         PUBLIC
<phenix>  zyz    #FREEBSDHELP:    PUBLIC
<phenix>  zyz    *!DANIELB@CPE-24-167-193-166.WI.RR.COM:  ALL
<phenix>  zyz    *!~WENDALLC@TORUS.NIDAHO.NET:    ALL
<chillywilly> dtm: you juist gott/me hands dtm the trout
<wendall911> that was a good try dtm
<dtm> but i'm a nice friendly helpful community member too!!
<phenix> haha.
<dtm> why can't i get ignored for it?!
<phenix> stfu.
<dtm> I'M VITAL
<chillywilly> so wtf is he in a channel if he is ignoring the whole thing?
<phenix> fine
<phenix> you're ignored
<chillywilly> dumbass
<dtm> yaaaay
<dtm> lol
<ajmitch_> congrats, dtm
<dtm> dudes.
<dtm> I've arrived.
<chillywilly> yaay
<dtm> i'll remember you all on my way to the TOP!
<chillywilly> now you can talk shit about him
<chillywilly> and he won't know
<dtm> alrighty 
<phenix> chillywilly is a fag :/
<chillywilly> he's probably wacthing the logs
<dtm> oh is that what we said we're doing?  WELL THEN LET'S DO IT
<dtm> haha logs
<dtm> coz all kids love log!!
<nickr> what rolls down stairs, alone or in pairs, rolls over the neighbor's dog
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> it's log! log! log!
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<chillywilly> it's looog, loooog, it's big, it's heavy, it's wood
<nickr> Its looog, its looog its better than bad, its GOOD!
<chillywilly> :-D
<ajmitch_> crazy kids
<dtm> blamblamblamblam
<dtm> Jah, eez reely fun.
<phenix> you dont make sense unignored either.
<phenix> none of you.
<phenix> stop sniffing gnue.
<dtm> NEW AMAZING PRODUCT!!!!  All new international talking Log!  In Spanish!!  "Las cucarachas entran, pero no pueren salir."
<chillywilly> lol
<phenix> yo tomo cucarachas
<dtm> In New York-ese!!  "Hey!  Can't you see i'm WALKIN HEEERE!??!?"
<wendall911> chillywilly: i think most dbms support 65,000 chars...i know even M$ access does that, the 93 standard says 8000 bits, i think i'll be safe with the 65000 mark
<nickr> O_o
<dtm> o_O
<nickr> O_o
<dtm> o_O
<nickr> O_o
<dtm> o_O
<chillywilly> rofl
<dtm> that's like some kind of a bauble lamp
<dtm> formation
<dtm> or a utility pole
<phenix> or a cactus.
<dtm> No.
<dtm> I've already sent it through logistics.  It cannot be a cactus.
<phenix> whew.
<nickr> It look s like a cat tree
<phenix> i was afraid you'd get pricked.
<dtm> plus!  see the anticacti clause in the channel charter
<dtm> nickr: a tree of cats?
<nickr> dtm: no, a construction of wood covered in carpet upon which cats play
<dtm> cats play upon a STICK NAILED FULL OF MATTED UP FREEZE DRIED CATS?!
<dtm> how crazy is that
<nickr> pretty crazy
<dtm> i dont care ifyou carpet em.
<dtm> that's still crazy!
<dtm> i didn't know they were that sturdy
<nickr> it gets crazier
<dtm> so as to bear the weight of other cats
<dtm> other, living cats
<dtm> oh ok continue.
<nickr> I have no evidence to back up that claim.
<dtm> oh ok
<dtm> we'll leave the issue open to debate and speculation
<dtm> and/or a nice even, rounded mix of speculative debate
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<nickr> excellent
<dtm> jamest: hi.
<dtm> nickr: Superb!
<dtm> lallalalallalaa.
<nickr> lelelele
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<jamest> hello
<jamest> someone was asking about scanner form?
<chillywilly> I am laeving
<chillywilly> leaving too
<chillywilly> bye
<jamest> l8r
<md-intrspctr> bye chillywilly
<phenix> lala.
<phenix> bored.
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<hp> hi all!
<hp> I came to amuse the developers :)
<hp> and, to ask what gnue was all about :)
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<dneighbo_> its all about the goats
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<hp> aha, yes... figured that :)
<hp> I just really wondered what it's FOR, I mean, how can I use it, and, can I use it :)
Nick change: md-intrspctr -> md-zzz
<jamest> it's tools to create biz apps (at this time)
<jamest> you can use it to create reports, data entry/modification screens
<jamest> you can use gnue-common in your own python apps to gets lots of functionality out of the box for custom apps
<jamest> reports can be all kinds of things, i use gnue-reports to drive a mass faxing via hylafax 
<jamest> (not spam faxing btw, signups for school events, they found it cheaper than mailing them :)
<hp> I was wondering how much of it is ready for use at smallish companies, I do quite a bit of linux migrations, (desktop and server) but I do encounter some trouble with stuff like ERP et all, that's why I've been following gnue's kernel cousin quite a lot
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<jamest> i use it at small companies and in math dept at ksu
<jamest> if you're willing to roll up the sleeves and do the work you can tie to almost any database driven app
<jamest> i link into custom java app database to provide additional functionality the java app can't support
<hp> what I wonder is, what can I use it for NOW :) or is it really 'just' a framework
<jamest> it's not AR, HR, Mfg Control, etc
<jamest> it's tool
<jamest> s
<jamest> in a few hours i was able to duplicate most the functionality of a java data entry app
<jamest> an app that took about 1 year to create
<hp> that sounds pretty good :
<hp> )
<jamest> i was happy, the guy that wrote the app may not have been as happy
<jamest> :)
<hp> are there standard apps for gnue already? because all the gnue packages have a status of "not started yet" or something similar :)
<jamest> no real AR/HR/etc packages exist
<jamest> there is the work on gnue-sbe which is supposed to be apps
<hp> small business edition, right?
<dtm> jamest: who's behind gnue-sb?
<jamest> but I'm not sure their status derek and Vee were working on that last i knew
<dtm> hp: yes
<jamest> dtm: man , i'm good, answering before you even ask :)
<jamest> and no that dress doesn't make you look fat
<jamest> hp: appserver is also starting to make progress
<jamest> not sure the current state
<jamest> but if you're looking for a tool to quickly extend or enhance existing apps then gnue may work really well for you in some cases
<jamest> you can also write custom apps from the ground up with gnue
<hp> hmmz... some accountants package would be nice :)
<jamest> and gnue-designer, buggy as she may be, can be handed to newbs to create their own data forms
<jamest> i've got a person creating forms that has 0 programmin experience
<jamest> design the table structures and then they can drag and drop fields at will to "paint" the form
<jamest> they flesh out the basic layout, input validation via the GUI
<jamest> then I add triggers to the form for more complex things
<jamest> gnue really is a system you have to play with for a while to get a feel for it
<jamest> we'd love someone to flesh out an AR system for gnue btw
<md-zzz> jamest: i have that on my list!
<jamest> it's mainly an issue of free coders free time
<md-zzz> compier/sqllesdge
<jamest> or the lack of :)
<md-zzz> sqlledger
<jamest> md-zzz: sleep irc'n?
<md-zzz> yesh
<md-zzz> i need to sleep
<md-zzz> but want to work 
<md-zzz> we talked about free time
<md-zzz> well,
<md-zzz> problem solved
<jamest> the lack of :)
<md-zzz> dont sleep
Action: jamest would fear drooling in the keyboard
<hp> md-zzz, it does work :) it's 2:50 am here now ;)
<md-zzz> or hitting head
<md-zzz> here too hp
<md-zzz> in frankfurt
<hp> holland
<jamest> hp: i'm a little bias but I look at all custom problems as gnue based solutions
<hp> jamest, sounds good to me :)
<jamest> all new apps of mine start from gnue-common, any data entry is gnue-forms
<jamest> reports are either gnue-reports or custom gnue-common based apps
Nick change: md-zzz -> ZzZZz-mD-ZzZzZZz
<hp> jamest, is it comparable to anything I might already know, or is generally known?
<jamest> gnue-forms is inspired by oracle's SQL-Forms product
<jamest> I think they java-ized it a few years ago 
<hp> hmmz, so it's not too hard to get working apps out of gnue then?
<hp> jamest, yeah, they did... it STILL only works on windows though :)
Action: hp thinks "and a fine job they did" 
<jamest> we were inspired by sql*forms 3.0
<jamest> are you familiar with that product?
<hp> vaguely
<jamest> as for how easy it is to use, i think it's very easy, but I'm not the person to ask :)
<hp> I am a pretty good coder (as far as I'm concerned) but something that makes things nice and cross-platform, and fast... well, that's ALWAYS welcome ;)
<jamest> our forms/common package has exceeded IMHO oracles product in some areas, and still lacking in a few
<jamest> our common based datasources allow for infinately deep master/detail relationships between tables
<jamest> so one form can have tables that reside in different db's (like mysql and postgresql and oracle)
<hp> and the clients work on windows too? not that I care in any way... but some of my clients still want to keep one or two windows desktops :(
<hp> jamest, wow, THAT's nice :)
<jamest> yes,btami has been doing a great job on the windows side of things
<jamest> hp: everything we do have is 100% python fwiw
<jamest> so far its proven fast enough
<jamest> if something ever becomes a bottleneck then we'll first attempt to fix any design issues that slow it down
<jamest> if that doesn't work then plans are to recode that portion in C/C++ (which we've never needed to do yet)
<jamest> you might check out the devel guide included in gnue-common
<hp> pyhton... don't know much python... actually... I only know it exists :)
<jamest> what are you used to coding in?
<hp> C/gtk or C++/qt. php, pearl but usually Objective C
Action: jamest has never used Objective C
<hp> I like it :)
<jamest> i think you'll find python enjoyable after using perl and php
<wendall911> python is very nice
Action: jamest used to code in C C++ php perl but now port things to python/zope
<hp> php is quite good... I just try to avoid their object model :)
<jamest> hp: do you have our cvs checkout?  or a release downloaded?
<hp> for gnue?
<jamest> yes
<hp> not yet
<jamest> cvs is a bit hosed at the moment
<hp> thanks for the warning :)
Action: jamest just recalled he was to work on database drivers today :)
<jamest> but the last release should contain the docs
<jamest> there is a devel guide for common and for forms that goes into using designer
<phenix> the source
<phenix> eh?
<jamest> neither are complete but both have enough to give you a feel for how we do things
<hp> ok, aptituding now :)
<jamest> i wouldn't use gnue as a basis for learning python though :)
<jamest> i've been told our code, is, um, complex
<jamest> yeah, that's the word I'll use
<jamest> :)
<jamest> i'm going to have to go now, family time
<jamest> but there is almost always someone around to help in here
<jamest> and if not feel free to msg me if I'm logged in
<hp> jamest, ok, I'll let you know :)
<jamest> this window is typically covered up 
<hp> jamest, thanks
Action: jamest needs more monitors
<jamest> l8r
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<dtm> yeah one for irc
<hp> one for email
<hp> one for "work"
<dtm> one for quake
<hp> one for browsing
<hp> well.. that could go on the "work" monitor
<dtm> yeah.
<hp> and at least two for development work :)
<hp> so... 4... at LEAST :)
<dtm> i'm gonna hafta install quake one of these days
<hp> q2
[20:35] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
Action: hp dreams 
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