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<cray> hi everybody
<cray> just a little note : about half year ago, I was finding out about GNUe and then whote to this IRC, why do you use Python (I said "so exotic") .........now I see, you're completely right----so have fun, GNUE is super
<dtm> :)
<dtm> cray: hi there
<dtm> welcome back
<cray> if only it were a "return"  .....but it's an exploration :-)
<cray> first touch :-)
<dtm> :)
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<siesel> morning
<siesel> reinhard: you there?
<siesel> it seems to me like the only revision control system in woody is CVS
<siesel> But there are backported packages for subversion 
<siesel> I don't know if this fits with you requirements?
<cray> havoc: Mr. Pennington himself ? :-)
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<thierry> morning gnuers
<dimas> hello thierry
<thierry> hello dimas
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<jbailey> reinhard: There?
<reinhard> yep
<chillywilly> hi jeff
<chillywilly> hi reinhard 
<jbailey> Heya Dan.
<jbailey> reinhard: More crazy appserver questions, got time?
<reinhard> hi all
<reinhard> a few minutes
<jbailey> appserver uses xml-rpc, right?  Is it possible to do some sort of authentication on that, or is it like corba, where you just pray the person has the rights to make the call?
<reinhard> "appserver uses xml-rpc" isn't a 100% correct statement
<chillywilly> heh, there some that argue that xml-rpc and soap are huge vioaltions of security cause they overload port 80
<reinhard> appserver uses whatever the gnue rpc library provides
<chillywilly> tunnel one protocol over the other
<chillywilly> tunneling
<jbailey> chillywilly: port-based security isn't terribly good security anyway. http is just a transport.  (Not a terribly good one, but good enough)
<jbailey> reinhard: Ah, okay.
<chillywilly> http is a protocol w/ an api
<reinhard> just a sec (phone)
<chillywilly> GET, POST, PUT, DELETE
<jbailey> So other things could be plugged in if xml-rpc didn't meet my needs.
<chillywilly> w/ unlimited number of nouns
<chillywilly> URIs
<jbailey> I had this crazy idea that appserver could be amazingly useful as a job server.
<chillywilly> nouns or "resources"
<chillywilly> jbailey: http://internet.conveyor.com/RESTwiki/moin.cgi/FrontPage
<jbailey> Gah!  Not more trout porn!
<jbailey> God, I hate traditional Wikis.
<chillywilly> need to fidn this one guy's page
<jbailey> The captialisation structure for links makes them hard to parse.
<SachaS> jbailey a job server of ... ? what sorts of jobs?
<chillywilly> all my bvook marks disappeared
<chillywilly> when my nephew powered this machine off uncleanly
<chillywilly> (little bastid)
<jbailey> SachaS: The case I'm thinking of is Debian packages to be built, but it could just as easily be a scalable invoicing or statement generating system.
<jbailey> chillywilly: Use ext3, man.
<SachaS> ok
<reinhard> jbailey: as to security
<SachaS> a generic app server for some sort of jobs
<chillywilly> I use a jouranling fs
<reinhard> jbailey: i think we need a secure means of transport
<jbailey> SachaS: I worked for a company that paid a million dollars for a generator like that.  Really sad.
<SachaS> hi reinhard btw
<reinhard> but authentication and such should be done by the server
<reinhard> hi SachaS
<chillywilly> http://webservices.xml.com/pub/a/ws/2002/02/06/rest.html
<chillywilly> http://www.prescod.net/rest/
<SachaS> reinhard: in january I am back in FL (that not florida)
<chillywilly> http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2002/02/20/rest.html
<jbailey> chillywilly appears to have mistaken his irc client for a web browser.
<SachaS> lol
<chillywilly> no, I just think the REST architecture is a VERY interesting take on how the web should works ;)
<chillywilly> work
<chillywilly> and a compelling argument against xml-rpc/soap
<chillywilly> ;)
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<jbailey> The argument seems to be so far that it makes security/admins jobs harder because they have to do deep inspection.
<chillywilly> that's one point
<jbailey> The counter argument is that anyone not doing that type of deep inspection to protect against malicious attacks probably won't have their job for long.
<chillywilly> but the web is also ingherently a resource model
<chillywilly> bah, inherently
<jamest> jbailey: ?
<jbailey> jamest: Dan's pointed to an argument that xml-rpc/soap over an http transport violates do-one-thing-well architecture.
<jbailey> chillywilly: Did I sum that part of the argument fairly?
<chillywilly> I suppose ;)
<jbailey> "Because you are hiding your real actions in the XML body, you make it much harder for her to use standard filtering tools."
<jbailey> Which is reasonable.
<chillywilly> the web is about representing state...the way I view it is displaying parts of your data model in some fashion
<jbailey> Except that we don't get to the users how they use the protocols, and always have to protect against random crap anyway.
<chillywilly> addressable via URIs....you add, manipulate, remove "resources"
<jamest> users?
<jamest> filter?
<jamest> ha ha 
<jamest> HA HA
<jamest> i have a spam filter system here
<chillywilly> jbailey: prefereably representing that state via some industry standard xml document ;)
<jamest> i sent out a doc telling people how to activate it.  It requires the following steps.
<SachaS> chillywilly so its all about the state?
<jamest> 1. login to system
<jamest> 2. type "spamfilter on"
<chillywilly> REpresentational Stat Transfer
<chillywilly> State
<chillywilly> REST
<jamest> 3. go surf for porn or warez or whatever you normally do all day
Action: jamest still has to help users set it up
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<jamest> so if you're arguing that by doing X you're giving the users more options then you're catering to the 2% of the userbase that knowns that the box that the keyboard, monitor, printer, etc plug into isn't just a "hard drive"
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<reinhard> hi dcmwai
<dcmwai> hello reinhard
<reinhard> was it you who asked for a documentation on "good coding style"?
<dcmwai> reinhard: YEP
<dcmwai> reinhard: I am looking for something like this...
<dcmwai> reinhard: any idea?
<reinhard> you might want to look at http://www.nongnu.org/style-guide/
<reinhard> i'm not sure if it is what you are looking for
<reinhard> it is a project i started some time ago
<reinhard> and actually want to continue (if i have time)
<dcmwai> www.nongnu.org??? This is kind of cute name :)
<dcmwai> reinhard: hum too bad is that the files are in savannah
<dcmwai> so ... it is unassable.
<chillywilly> yea
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> bad
<reinhard> i didn't notice that the download area is on savannah
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<jcater> reinhard: to answer your question from the email, ash is in my daily backup rotation
<reinhard> what is a daily backup rotation?
<jbailey> reinhard: To my earlier question:  Is the idea of using appserver that way a horrible abuse of it?
<jbailey> (as a job server)
<jcater> I back it up daily
<reinhard> jcater: ah, ok :-)
<reinhard> jbailey: sorry i missed that question
<reinhard> what does a job server do?
<jbailey> In its simplest form, you have a series of items to work on, and remote servers query the job server for work to do.
<jbailey> In this case, though, the data could be stored in a data not necessarily as work to do, but as a series of records that might meet some criteria.
<jbailey> Like SELECT foo WHERE billing_date>30 days LIMIT 10.
<jbailey> (Or more complicated with various script engines and such)
<reinhard> jbailey: to me this looks like a quite standard database application?
<jbailey> Should be yes.  Except that I wouldn't want all the remove servers to have direct access to the database.
<jbailey> But I'm still having trouble figuring out when to look at appserver for these projects, and when I'm just stretching a little too far.
<jbailey> =)
<reinhard> i'm not sure if i understand you correct
<reinhard> but this looks to me as if you could even do it with current version of appserver
<reinhard> as appserver would be not much more than a "data forwarding" instance
<jbailey> Cool.  The only tricky bit is that once it hands the records to a client, it mustn't ever hand those records out again.
<reinhard> to hide direct access to the db server
<reinhard> ergh
<jbailey> So it's like a select + update or some such.
<reinhard> that is error prone, isn't it?
<reinhard> what if (for example) while passing the result to the receiver, the network connection dies?
<jbailey> To some degree.  I would assume there would be a timestamp of some sort saying 'this is being worked on', and an identifier as to which server is doing the work.
<reinhard> i think the server should send some "yes i'm working on it" as an extra "update" statement
<reinhard> and another "i'm finished"
<jbailey> Yup.
<jbailey> Although between the first two, the server has to assume it's being worked on for some period of time until it knows for certain.
<jbailey> (race condition avoidance)
<reinhard> hmmm
<reinhard> something like
<reinhard> 1. update job status to "requested"
<reinhard> 2. send job to server
<reinhard> 3. update job status to "worked on"
<jbailey> Then 4. update job status to "finished"
<reinhard> yes exactly
<jbailey> (So that if a server eats a job, you can tell)
<reinhard> with appserver now, 1. - 4. would have to be done by the "client" (= the server doing the job)
<reinhard> when we have working procedures on appserver, it could be easier
<jbailey> Cool.  Are you still aiming for that for the end of the year?
<reinhard> sure
<chillywilly> HEH
<reinhard> just i'm not certain which year
<reinhard> ;-)
<jbailey> ;)
<reinhard> well i define "end of the year" as "30 days after sarge's release"
<reinhard> ;-)
<jbailey> Someone witness this!
<reinhard> seriously i have no idea what i will get done over the christmas holidays
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<jamest> reinhard: you had to push back to sometime in 2005?
Action: jamest runs
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<siesel> hi btami
<siesel> hi all
<btami> hi all
<btami> hi siesel
Action: btami likes symmetry .)
<dsmith> heh
<dsmith> btami: Reminds me of something a character on b5 said.
Action: siesel 's daughtes name is hannah. Isn't that symmetry :)
<btami> siesel: nice!
<dsmith> http://homepage.mac.com/edahand/iblog/B1323778479/C122905406/E1982308475/
<jbailey> That's probably excessive. =)
<dsmith> Not really symmetry, but my initals are DS my wife's JS, and my kids happends to be DJS, JDS, and DJS.  The boys start with D, the girl with J. We did not plan that.
<chillywilly> freaks
<siesel> ALL: Can we today finally decide where to move in terms of "Revision Control System", or do you all think that this decicion is done already?
<btami> dsmith: two DJS is symmetry violation, you lose :)
<jcater> siesel: imho, we have a consensus
<jcater> I think all of reinhard's conditions are already met
<jcater> which I take to mean, he's ok with it
<jcater> I'm not sure about svn+ssh vs apache, though
<siesel> I think so too. I just wanted to get a last feedback.
<jcater> anyone know about the security implementations of the latter?
<dsmith> btami: For get the S
<jamest> nope, i've only used ssh+svn
<jcater> honestly, the webdav support sounds really neat
<jcater> but scares the heck out of me too
<chillywilly> why?
<jamest> ?
<chillywilly> youuse apache auth methods
<btami> dsmith: :)
<siesel> IMHO the problem with the later is authentification, but I don't know much about it
Action: jcater never considered webdav that secure
<chillywilly> is https secure?
<jcater> but then again, I don't do a lot of advanced stuff w/it
<chillywilly> ;P
<jcater> chillywilly: not really
<dsmith> svn does not require webdav
<chillywilly> do you shop online?
<chillywilly> ever?
<jcater> it only conceals traffic, 
<jcater> not authenticate
<siesel> what about just using svn+ssh and using savannah for anon cvs
<chillywilly> jcater: bacially you have to use http auth
<siesel> (i.e. just daily snapshots until savannah is back)
<jcater> chillywilly: I've never considered http auth to be secure
<chillywilly> it's not the password is sent in the clear...digst authentication is better but the user agents have not caught up to it yet
<jcater> is it easy to go from svn+ssh to apache2 later on?
<chillywilly> it should be
<jcater> i.e., I'd assume the actual svn repository wouldn't change based on which one we use
<siesel> should be. It just mean to change the URL.
<chillywilly> the repo is in the same format
<jcater> I'd say let's start out with svn+ssh
<chillywilly> you mean use the stand along svnserve?
<jcater> besides, if we went w/the other solution
<jcater> that's more to do
<chillywilly> alone
<jcater> as apache2 isn't on ash
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> standalone
Action: jcater has no idea what it'd take to get apache2 on a woody machine
<jcater> so, does everyone agree with me?
<jcater> great! I'm glad
<jcater> then it's settled
<jcater> =)
<siesel> :)
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<siesel> jcater: ok, the next step is the implementation.
<siesel> Which repos structure should we use? trunk/gnue-common trunk/gnue-forms branches/gnue-test-common
<dsmith> svn isn't even in Testing, btw.
<siesel> or gnue-common/trunk gnue-common/branches ....
<jamest> i have a project in svn on ash
<chillywilly> the latter
<jcater> siesel: honestly, that means nothing to me
<jamest> i request that it not be destroyed 
<jamest> i can move it but not at this moment
<siesel> what be destroyed?
<jamest> my project
<siesel> no. we should stay at svn 0.26 for the moment :)
Action: jamest is using ash to host a svn repository of something not gnue related
<jamest> i recently updated from .26 ro 0.33.1 w/o issues
<jamest> just forgot to do ash
<jamest> ash/my project was a test bed for svn for me
<siesel> chillywilly: I would prefer the first, as it would be easy then to check out the whole gnue tree and still be able to use the same setup-cvs.py which we use now.
<chillywilly> tyhen everything is under one repo?
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<siesel> IMHO its the easiest way, but it doesn't mean that we have to merge the cvs repositories
<chillywilly> that makes no sense then ;)
<chillywilly> if they are separate repos you can't check them all out at once
<siesel> it does :)
<jcater> what's the difference between the two?
<jcater> and which is analogous to what we have now?
<chillywilly> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/html-chunk/ch04s07.html
<siesel> it would mean using just one svn repository, but we should be able to let it update different cvs repository as setup on savannah now.
<chillywilly> ok, well that is differnt from what I thought you meant
<siesel> jcater: I think its easier to have the whole gnue project in one svn repository as it allows moving files from reports to common without loosing history
<siesel> but it is still possible to just check out gnue-common or gnue-forms etc.
<jcater> why did we move to gnue-* in cvs?
<jcater> and would those needs still be met with that layout?
<siesel> because it was easier to package?
<jcater> I think it had to do with packaging or something
Action: jcater doesn't recall, but I do miss being able to do a single update :)
<jcater> I know there was a reason, though
<siesel> yeah, typing a "for .. " loop everytime to update gnue is bad :(
<jcater> I hate having to type my password each time
<siesel> :)
<siesel> Nevertheless using one tree with svn shouldn't be a problem, as we can do finegrained security with svn and
<siesel> it is possible to check out the tree as a whole (trunk/gnue-*) or single subdirs /trunk/gnue-common /trunk/gnue-forms ...
<siesel> even checking out just /trunk/gnue-common/src/datasource/drivers/postgresql is possible
<siesel> jcater, could you create a subversion group on ash and add all commiters to this group?
<siesel> We would then have a bit more security.
<jamest> added
<jcater> oops
Action: jcater :q!
<jamest> i don't know who you want in it
<jamest> oops
<siesel> lol
<jcater> should we call the group gnue or something instead?
<jcater> to avoid future confusion?
<jamest> sure
<jamest> i'll let you do that
<jamest> :)
<btami> :)
Action: jamest goes back to his hole
<siesel> Is everyone ok with using a preliminary repository first, and wait for savannah to create the final one?
<jcater> I dunno
<jcater> how hard is it going to be to merge history w/current stuff?
<jamest> vs
<siesel> I don't think very hard.
<jamest> how long before we could even get a "real" one from savannah
Action: jamest doesn't forsee the savannah admins having time for this for quite a while
<jcater> should we send them a pizza?
<jcater> I'll chip in $5
<jcater> if that'll get it done faster =)
Action: siesel would give another $5 :)
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<siesel> jamest: I thought about using a svn2cvs script to do the merge.
<siesel> I think we need such a script to keep the trees in sync.
<siesel> although it would be ready from the begin on, but we can wait until it is ready and when its ready and savannah is up, we can fake call to the auto-commit script
<siesel> beginning with first version number containing the first real patch (i.e. not counting the setup stuff)
<jamest> siesel: so we'd lose all history data until savannah is back?
<jamest> then we'd sync the tree to cvs
<jamest> then reimport into svn to get history?
<siesel> yes I thought so.
<jamest> that can be done?
<jbailey> Why not just use CVS for now until you can do the merge.
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<jbailey> Be good and don't move directories around.  Mergine rcs files together should be relatively easy.
<siesel> jbailey, because cvs isn't writable yet, so we can't continue work on gnue
<jamest> he's talking about setting up cvs on ash
<jamest> i think
<jbailey> Yup
<jamest> that'd be too simple
<jamest> so we didn't consider it
Action: jamest didn't anyway :)
<jbailey> jamest: What would be *really* too simple would be to acknowledge that noone uses history anyway, and just start a new tree.
<jbailey> Archive the old one for historical purposes, and delete it in 5 years when you realise that you've neverl ooked at it.
<siesel> jailey: it would help much, as we then still have no history.
<jamest> hey
<jamest> i've used the history at least, um, once
<jamest> long ago
Action: jcater notes that he's used history quite a bit
<jcater> but suppose I could live without it
<jbailey> Either way.
<jbailey> Merging historical CVS data in *after the fact* seems slightly more painful than gnawing off a testicle.
<jbailey> (into svn, specifically)
Action: jamest will take jbaileys word on that
<jbailey> jamest: Well, can't you imagine how much you would hurt someone who tried to gnaw off one of your testicles?
<jamest> ooooo, good point
<jbailey> I'm trying to figure out how I can make a database format that will allow an unlimited number of modules to contribute to it in a series of unknown formats without having to mess with the schema.
<jbailey> I think I have a solution. =)
<jbailey> Now all I need to do is learn how to work -common. =)
<jamest> the guide will give you the basics
<jbailey> GNUe Common: Technical Reference?
<jamest> Developers-Guide.sxw
<jamest> in the docs dir
<jbailey> What format is sxw?
Action: jamest really needs to add to that
<jbailey> http://www.gnu.org/software/gnue/project/docs/Developers-Guide.sxw is a 404
<jamest> openoffice
<jbailey> Argh.  I wonder if I have anythign that can read that.
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<jamest> it's in gnue-common/docs
<jamest> i think jcater was keeping up to date pdfs
<jamest> hang on
<jbailey> 'sokay.  abiword reads OOo aparently.
<jamest> i bet ~jcater/docs/common is up to date
<jbailey> Luvly!
<jamest> if you need samples of setting up the parser i can send you some
<jbailey> Thanks.  I'll see where I get to with the guide.
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<jbailey> Hey - If I get you guys your CVS tree, do *I* get the pizza? =)
<jamest> sure
<chillywilly> meat lovers pizza?
<chillywilly> ;)
<jbailey> Oy.
<jamest> whatever it takes man
<jbailey> ftp://ftp.gnu.org/savannah/cvs/gnue-cvs-latest.tar.gz and ftp://ftp.gnu.org/savannah/cvs/gnue-sb-cvs-latest.tar.gz
<chillywilly> no way
<jbailey> (I cheated.  They're all up there)
<chillywilly> butt head
<chillywilly> no pizza for you
<chillywilly> !
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<dtm> ajmitch_: herrew
<ajmitch_> ello mr dtm dir
<ajmitch_> s/dir/sir/
<ajmitch_> my typing is appalling today :(
<chillywilly> hi hi
<dtm> 's'a'ight
<dtm> chillywilly: !!!!!
<chillywilly> dtm!!!
<dtm> does anyone here know why my channels are not listed in '/whois dtm'?  i'd think it'd have something to do with '/msg nickserv help set'
<jamest> jbailey: it's the thought that counts right?
<ajmitch_> hi chillywilly
<ajmitch_> & jamest
<ajmitch_> what's up?
<jbailey> jamest: Yeah well. =)
<ajmitch_> so what's the current plan with CVS? move to subversion on ash?
<dtm> is there a way to migrate all metadata from cvs to svn?
<jamest> i vote we have them rm -rf all traces and then we walk away quietly
<jcater> yes and yes
<jamest> the frog would be so happy
<dtm> :-o
<chillywilly> there's a repo conversion script
<chillywilly> for svn to cvs
<chillywilly> and some supporting documentation
<chillywilly> iirc
<dtm> jamest: DID YOU SAY FRED_FROG?!?!  Why, I used to work with Fred_Frog over in accountz receebavlez.... dyaaa..aaaaand one time he went hunting and commanded a deer to drop dead at his feet, and it did!  Then he picked it up overhead and ordered it to say his name.  "SAY MY NAME!!  FRED_FROG!!  SAY IT!!!"  And he manipulated its vocal cords such that it uttered a stunningly lifelike sound resembling "freeed_frock".  TO FRED_FROG!!!!!!!!
Action: dtm raises his glass and falls over
<ajmitch_> dunno what's more amazing - that you bothered to type all that, or that you're crazy enough to do so :)
<jamest> wow
<jamest> and we banned him
<jamest> sucks to be us i guess
Action: dtm stumbles over to ajmitch_ 
<ajmitch_> yeah
<ajmitch_> we don't get to bask in his wonder & glory
<dtm> ajmitch_: Do you know Fred_Frog?  Coz if you do, I ... I want to be your dear friend.
<dtm> TO FRED_FROG!!!!!!!!
<chillywilly> dtm: dude, lay off the crack rock
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<dtm> An eight foot high mountain of a man, in the body of one little frog.
<jbailey> Can I squish him like we did da frog?
<chillywilly> :-o
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<chillywilly> that won't be necessary mr. bailey
<jcater> did someone mention squishing someone?
Action: ajmitch_ distracts jcater with donuts
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<chillywilly> bah, freenode splits at least once a day now
<ajmitch_> at least
<jamest> damn free services!
<ajmitch_> I know!
<jcater> I say we install ircd on ash!
<jcater> =)
<ajmitch_> ok
Action: jcater ducks
<dtm> i got yer ircd right HERE
<jcater> bring it on, punk
Action: dtm shifts menacingly in his seat
<jamest> dammit you two, don't make me reach back there!
<jamest> i'll pull over right now and...
<dtm> are we there yet?
<chillywilly> I gotta go to the bathroom
Action: jcater points to the nearest tree
<ajmitch_> and if you don't behave, you can walk home
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Action: dtm passes chillywilly an empty Gatorade bottle
<dtm> and dont forget to put the lid back on
<chillywilly> :-/
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<jbailey> Ah, Gatorade.
<jbailey> Helping produce fat children, for 3 decades now.
<dtm> :-o
<jbailey> Can you beleive that some parents give that stuff to their kids?  It's absurd.
<dtm> well, when they've got a powerful thirst to quench, you're darn right!
<dtm> what else would you have them use?  WATER?  that free crap isn't good enough to sell.
<jbailey> I watched a great show that basically said if you're doing less than an hour of solid cardio, you don't need gatorade.
<jcater> does moving the mouse count?
<dneighbo_> only if you are using the scroll wheel in the middle
Nick change: dneighbo_ -> derek
<jbailey> I don't think the type of web surfer that gets your heart racing counts as cardio.
<derek> i dont know i think the pr0n can work some folks up pretty good
<jbailey> Although, once they considered ballroom dancing for the olympics, I can only imagine that group masturbation wouldn't be too far behind.
<derek> especially if they are trying to hide it from their spouse
<derek> chillywilly: you use gdesklets yet?
<derek> it is rocking hard enough i might thave gotten rid of my obsession with wanting to use OSX
<jcater> sigh
<jcater> naturally gnue's repository hits a bug in cvs2svn.py
<derek> :(
<derek> so we are officially moving?
<derek> i.e. do we have an entire action plan
<jcater> yip
<derek> i saw something come accross the list but looked more like a proposal
<ajmitch_> test & see if it works, and then switch :)
<derek> did we post the plan anywhere?
<derek> ajmitch_ sounds like a good plan to me
<jcater> aj summed it up pretty well
<derek> though the old stuff doesnt work
<derek> so testing probably isnt even a necessity :)
<derek> i am more curious about going forward
<jcater> I'm getting it to work
<derek> our relationship with savannah cvs
<derek> than i am about moving our cvs to subversions on ash
Action: derek felt the moving to ash and subversions was a overwhelming vote of yes (amazing how lack of cvs for 2 weeks can swing votes) ;)
<dtm> derek: well hey.  think of it this way.  you're doing the FSF a favor by burdening their resources so much less.
<derek> i know jbailey threw out concerns about not being able to sync svn with cvs
<derek> didnt know if those were resolved or if we opted to just make cvs on savannah be equiv of a checkout only tarball type environment
<derek> or did we talbe that as "deal with it later"
<dtm> :}
<ajmitch_> and put up instructions for people to check out, once it's done
Action: ajmitch_ wonders why he is suddenly very lagged...
<jcater> that was weird
<jcater> I don't think it's just you
<ajmitch_> hmm, have a placeholder in savannah cvs with a README telling people how to get stuff from subversion?
<ajmitch_> ie switch fully..
<ajmitch_> but I'm not sure how many people have svn clients for grabbing code
<derek> did reinhards question of a client in woody get answered?
<dtm> i suddenly felt a great disturbance in the Force Feedback, as if thousands of clients suddenly cried out in latency.... and then were netsplit.
<derek> btw: im loving that we are changing things
<ajmitch_> derek: yes
<jcater> derek: jamest and I are using svn under woody
<ajmitch_> derek: there are woody backports of svn, afaik 
<jcater> I can't remember if we backported packages are they already existed
<jcater> s/are/or
<ajmitch_> and there are win32 packages, etc
<derek> just dont want to sever FSF ties
<ajmitch_> http://subversion.tigris.org/project_packages.html
<derek> plus at LDC and the county we are moving to subversions for things
<jcater> damn
<derek> so im having to learn it anyway, so its perfect timing on my part
<jcater> I was hoping you wouldn't know how to access svn
<jcater> sigh
Action: jcater ducks
<derek> worse.. im LEARNING how
<derek> so imagine all my pain.... and grief... that i normally cause
<derek> then add "epiremental" to the front of that
<jcater> sigh
<derek> er expiremental even
<jcater> it takes me approx 1.5 hrs to run cvs2svn
<jcater> and it's failed twice
Action: jcater prays 3rd time is a charm
<derek> ouch batman
<derek> is there ANY possibility we will have stuff available tomorrow
Action: derek plans on going to LDC and hopefully we will toy with cleaning up the gtk2 driver
<jcater> probably
<jcater> I'm not sure if I'll be in town or not
<jcater> I have to finish setting up our new processing center
<ajmitch_> you could setup anoncvs temporarily on ash, for now? :)
<jcater> before christmas :(
<derek> you can leave town?
<derek> ah.. how far is new center?
<jcater> in same town as our remote office
<jcater> 90 miles from here
<jcater> we leased another 8,000 sqft
<jcater> to do nothing but handle mail
<derek> fun
<derek> mail 
<derek> is fun
<jcater> to say the least, I'm getting lots of ltsp experiece :)
<derek> jbailey: do you use gnome?
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<jbailey> derek: Yes.
<chillywilly> no gdesklets for me as I use KDE
<chillywilly> it's getting to be about my bed time
<derek> jbailey: do you know if there is a way to turn on "edge flipping" in gnome 2.4 with metacity as a window manager?
<chillywilly> what's edge flipping?
<derek> chillywilly: gnome is rocking my socks again
<chillywilly> it seems slow and bloated
<chillywilly> I installled 2.4 from sid
<derek> when you get to the edge of a virtual desktotp it switches to the desktop next to it
<chillywilly> oh
<derek> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/screenshots/darkscreenshot.png
<chillywilly> I don't use virtual desktops much anymore
<derek> those icons at the bottom are like OSX
<chillywilly> that's on debian?
<derek> as you mouse over them they "pop" up
<chillywilly> nice desktop
<derek> and get highlighted it is PURE WICKEDNESS
<derek> yeah debian
<chillywilly> what kinda theme is that?>
<derek> let me see if i can "catch" it
<chillywilly> and what is that calendar in the upper right?
<jbailey> I don't think there's edge flipping in metacity by default.
<derek> everything on the desktop is gdesklet apps
<jbailey> It's possible to add with an extension, but I always hated it soI never looked into it.
<derek> calendar, clocke etc
<chillywilly> hmmm, ok
<derek> even the panel at the bottom is a desklet
<chillywilly> what package are they in?
<jbailey> bed time.  Enough staring at posix specs for me.
<chillywilly> gdesklets?
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<chillywilly> looks very slick
Action: chillywilly might try it ;)
<dtm> derek: yeah looks like Dock
<chillywilly> one thing I don;t like is gnome-terminal
<chillywilly> it's a bitch
<chillywilly> irssi | screen does not redraw correctly in it
<chillywilly> s/|/+/
<chillywilly> I installed gdesklets
<chillywilly> hmmm...
<chillywilly> brb ;)
<derek> ok here you go
<derek> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/screenshots/gdesk0.png
<derek> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/screenshots/gdesk1.png
<derek> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~dneighbo/screenshots/gdesk2.png
<derek> simulates a bitt what its like to hover over that bottom panel
<derek> still not quit osX badness, but close
<chillywilly> hmmm
<nickr> whats the crazy doodle to the side?
<derek> which side?
<nickr> right
<dtm> derek: the calendar
<derek> nickr: which doodle?
<chillywilly> htf do I use a desklet?
<chillywilly> found it I think
<derek> there is a weather desklet
<derek> a calendar desklet
<nickr> desklet
<nickr> new to me.
<derek> an info desklet
<derek> xmms desklet
<derek> clock desklet
<derek> on right side
<chillywilly> erm...I am confused ;)
<nickr> if I actually used multiple apps per screen that'd be ena.t
<nickr> neat.
<nickr> but I don't.
<chillywilly> wtf are the desklets?
<nickr> so no eye candy for me
<derek> chilly easiest way to use them is open them in nautilus
<chillywilly> ok...
<derek> basically every desklet has an deskletname.display
<derek> if you click on this in nautilus it launches the desklet
<chillywilly> my cons are too freakin' huge
<derek> you can also run
<derek> gdesklet deskletname.display
<chillywilly> I don't see sucha thing
<derek> yes my gripe is laptop doenst have large enough resolution to make them highly usesful :(
<derek> but there is massive potential
<derek>  /usr/share/gdesklets/
<derek> i think
<chillywilly> well I have a nice large LCD monitor ;)
<derek> also you must start the desklet daemon
<chillywilly> how?
<derek> i think you can run applications -> accessories -> gdesklets
<chillywilly> is there some docs on the thing?
<ajmitch> chillywilly: gdesklets = karamba clone ;)
<derek> if you are running gnome 2.4
<chillywilly> yea, I did that last one
<derek> man gdesklet is what i used
<chillywilly> ajmitch: ok...never used that either ;)
<ajmitch> chillywilly: some gnome people decided to copy KDE again ;)
<chillywilly> heheh
<derek> ajmitch  gdesklets + karamba = osX clone
<ajmitch> derek: sure
<derek> only osX does it so much better
Action: chillywilly looks for karamba
<derek> and they have way more of them
<ajmitch> chillywilly: get superkaramba
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> is it in sid?
<chillywilly> ah, ye
<chillywilly> typo
<chillywilly> s/ye/yea/
<ajmitch> and then goto kdelook for stuff
<derek> http://gdesklets.gnomedesktop.org/
--- Tue Dec 16 2003