Nick change: dneighbo_ -> derek cool stuff.. http://www.replicanet.com/graffe/sand.wmv Vee2d2 you must have broadband :) oh yes, I do. :) heh.. I just noticed how big that file is.. 19megs.. it's very impressive though it's a guy 'painting' on an overhead projector with sand ok hope that site has some bandwidth set aside.. the last time I put something on my site and pasted a link in here.. some radio station got 'hold of it and the traffic soared.. ;) GNUe832 (www-data@209.234.155.8) joined #gnuenterprise. GNUe832 (www-data@209.234.155.8) left irc: Client Quit ernie (www-data@209.234.155.8) joined #gnuenterprise. ernie (www-data@209.234.155.8) left irc: Client Quit Nick change: SachaS -> SachaAway reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. thierry (~thierry@AMarseille-207-1-9-144.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #gnuenterprise. morning gnuers dimas (~dimas@195.218.177.46) joined #gnuenterprise. SachaAway (~Sacha@dialup-196-78.wasp.net.au) left irc: "Client exiting" Ogart (~Chris@dialup-67.73.155.193.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Ogart (~Chris@dialup-67.73.155.193.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net) left irc: "ChatZilla 0.8.31 [Mozilla rv:1.4/20030624]" psu (psu@public1-wear2-3-cust70.leed.broadband.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. heh this is a great country when you can get a knighthood for inventing WWW ;-) hi psu hi reinhard rtaylor (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise. [06:15] Last message repeated 1 time(s). ? holycow (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection holycow (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise. holycow (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection holycow (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise. unfortunately, neither rms or linus are UK citizens, so no hope of any honours there rtaylor (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) can't imagine either of those gents being that interested anyway, of course heh funny how it worked out that we got good people with good value systems in just the right places personally, i think rms in particular would make an excellent member of the UK House of Lords is it me or is rekall remarkably similar to gnue? checkit --> http://www.thekompany.com/products/rekall/screenshots.php3 since as well as being the House's expert on free software issues he would probably want to get involved in other freedom-related issues as well baron ignuatius of emacs holycow ISTR they tried to merge with us once ah really? what happened, philosphical differences? as in, sent an e-mail to the list saying "hello useless losers, come and join a REAL project" or words to that effect oh thats arrogant i wasn;t around at the time, so I may be confusing them with someone else appearently they were supposed to have rencetly put that under gpl because of some developer issues they had i dont have that link, i think it was the new version of that let me check oh found it http://www.thekompany.com/press_media/full.php3?Id=242 neat well dual licence i think i preffer gnue much better :) my bad - I think I was thinking of either Kontor or Compiere http://www.kerneltraffic.org/GNUe/gnue20011117_3.html#1 compiere in particular is a wonderful example of how "free" software can only get you so far if you have non-free dependancies as you needed IIRC a specific version of Oracle Forms to run it, plus other non-free stuff they were working on a port to PostgreSQL but not sure what happened to that i know then it become a mess very quickly its either a free standard platform, or its not mixing the two is iffy imho well, GNUe will work with non-free databases if you want (Oracle, DB2) but will work with free ones just as well, including SAP-DB (which is GPL) *nod* i mean weirdo software components such as having a development suite depend on say ms foxpro for db stuff and crystal reports for reporting as an example, yeah i guess it works it just seems wrong somehow in a sense, it's reflecting the free software development model of trying to re-use other people's stuff as far as possible to avoid reinventing the wheel yes exactly but once you start trying to do that sort of thing with proprietary s/w you discover the true meaning of "dependancy hell" Actually, GNUe has had a tendancy to reduce its number of dependancies over time k. time to apt-get gnue :) This is mainly because some of the python add-ons we found useful were found useful by so many other people as well well the one thing that really attracts me to gnue is python that they got folded into the main python or wxPython code base i have wanted to learn it for ever and now i have a good excuse to pick it up :) now to find some good beginne forms tutorials for gnue :) hehe i'm a bit of a noob shall we say The main use of python is for things like trigger code what about the business logic? as all the hard work in the code to support basic forms operation is there for you does not each project create a business logic component for the server in python? s/trigger code/business logic ah, you're talking appserver now you'd need to ask siesel about that or, better still, given that he's here, reinhard heh :) i think reinhard gave me some links the other day psu, okay how about this: lets say i wanted to create a simple client tracking utility postgres, some forms, sorting of tables basically a contacts database? sure i think that's our sample db anyway ;-) you layout the forms as you would in any ide, add the trigger events ... also formed the basic starting blocks of GNUe-SB yep then what? where does the sorting happen? there must be some logic written somewhere? sample db? hehe :) Well, if you are talking 2-tier (ie. forms client talks direct to d/b) yes *nod* then the logic would be in the forms and reports so you would have a basic contact entry form this would also be your enquiry form, since you can use it in enquiry mode to query back data using wildcards etc Then you might have a report definition that produces say mailing list labels in RTF or whatever based on the criteria you select. I know jcater has done mail merge via GNUe *nod* and jamest has a "junk fax" application that uses GNUe Reports to fax out info for his university ah yeah? neat using a fax modem now, if someone is creating a ticketing system with a web interface for the client and a gnue forms interface internally the website implies that the gnue server can publish to the web? or am i misinterpreting something here? ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise. perhaps it publishes 'reports' to apache? or is there an xforms component that i've not clued into? Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/gnue20021019_51.html#9 Hmm I would work this by having GNUe Reports output HTML oh okay so there would be no real client interaction then with the data via an html based interface (it can output anything you can transform from XML, so HTML will be Class 101, I guess) cool, no need really actually now that i think about it i suppose one can just pull directly from the db *nod* right right GNUe Reports would be useful mainly if you wanted it in XML so you could go from the same basic data to mutliple other formats (HTML, PDF, RTF, etc) well, see, the thing is that html and said technologies are really very dumb interfaces mostly they are usefull for static display of data... the whole php thing seems like a terrific hack ver inelegant to my eyes anyway but it does work very well on the other hand you have something like this forms based client which is perfect for displaying rich data so somewhere along the line one has to decide which client needs which ui and i suppose the cross platform way of gnue solves that issue k. let me ask you this, how rich is the widget set in gnue? one thing i would really like to build for my self is something like mr.project Rich enough to be useful, not so rich as to make cross-platform difficult that whole thing is done in c under some weirdo ideas about how to build such a thing People propose new widgets and the usual response is "how would you implement it in curses (text-only)?" if someone can oh i see so if i wanted to build a gant chartt type application where i can have a task bar that i can drag and drop to indicate start and stop times some flags, and some hierarchical data representation... okay i see where your getting at that wouldnt then happen okay then the avenue here would be to add our own widget set/module to accomplish that :D i'm starting to see where gnue stands now :) yes the idea is to have a basic but functional widget set that will work (= degrade) on most UI i agree, thats fantastic that right there is a huuuuuuge selling point so that you can write a GNUe Forms Definition completely ignorant of how the display device operates yes actually the company i work for has a forms based client tracking thing done in Lotus Notes Domino Even talked about having a Bayonne Forms client (=interact with a form over the phone) But it was very expensive to build and maintain and no one uses it any more Nothing to stop people adding their own widgets e.g. for gantt-bars etc as long as they recognise that they are abandoning platform-independance right, the base toolset is an extremely powerfull idea, i see that now Since they onlyu need the one platform (whatever they are using), probably no big deal *nod* obviously there are times when specific tools must be built for specific situations Of course, if the widget is generally useful, it might end up being absorbed back into GNUe *nod* as long as the guys can work out a curses equivalent ;-) psu, how would i go about figuring out how to replicate the widgets necessary to build an application like mr. project? you see, the power of what i see here is the ability to share data easily between many components... normally right now i have a ticketing system that is separate from my email that is separate from my to do list that is separate from my project management software mailmerge - see http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/gnue20020518_29.html#27 gnue allows the possibility of really nice data interchange there *nod* for ticketing/prj mgt, see DCL (Double Chocco Latte) i checked that out, all i have seen is that its written in php? i dont get it or am I teaching granny to suck eggs here ? DCL merged with the rest of GNUe some time ago heh nope :) i'm learning i appreciate any input you give The plan was to leave the existing PHP front end as the main web access method but to start developing some GNUe Forms to address the DCL database directly where that made sense *nod* ah okay isee, i didnt see any gnue modules on their site yet Obviously, web access will always be the best way for users to enter logs k. i see what they are doing But in terms of reviewing them or reporting on them, or maintaining standing data, then GNUe Forms and GNUe Reports may be better tools *nod* right I know derek has written some GNUe Forms that go against the DCL database, not sure how far he got. *nod* i'm starting to see how the html and form stuff could work together I think it's fair to say GNUe doesn't have a definitive answer to web access at the moment sounds like i need to get cracking on some simple demos first and get my fee wet i dont think that is the providence of gnue anyway for web based access one would need to use web based tools php comes to mind however there is no reason python should not replace it, for example plone uses python effectively there have been several attempts at a web-based GNUe Forms client perhaps the only thing that might be added somehwere is a 'converstion tool' that takes gnue forms and generates python/html forms instead *shrug* in java, PHP etc but one way that would work just as well i've seen a java froms client from proprietary companies would be to have a link on your website to download and install the full Forms client ;-) well thats really the thing Let's face it, it can't be much worse than installing the Oracle Forms java "applet" (which was 6MB last time I looked) ;-) the browser technology as it stands right now simply isn't designed to do forms For contacts database ideas, see the CVS for GNUe-SB especially http://savannah.gnu.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs/gnue-sb/gnue-sb/contacts/ the xforms stuff i see coming down the line simply 'transforms' the browser into a gnue forms client really all of those atempts are generics of what gnue has i guess only mozilla seems to have the widget/gui stuff happening for all of that, just not the back end db connections or python interface (although ithink someone has one made at activestate.com) ah! there it is! i've been looking for that link :) psu, thankyou for all the information :) i gotta get some sleep, i appreciate you taking the time to help me grasp whats going on here :) http://kt.zork.net/GNUe/gnue20021012_50.html#15 re xforms ah no shit! :) sweet Almost everything has been discussed before in this channel ;-) but so what? Still worth discussing again hehe :) well thats always the price of letting newbs like me enter :) The GNUe Traffic summaries at http://www.kerneltraffic.org/GNUe/ are always worth a browse excellent, the xul faq is wonderfull holycow (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) left #gnuenterprise ("Leaving"). holycow (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise. oops :) holycow : newbs are good, if only because everyone adds their own slant sjc (~sjc@cpc2-seve3-4-0-cust112.popl.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. creative commons, and all that *nod* also, not reinventing the wheel or rather not having to pay for the wheel over and over once its invented very powerfull notions Ok, one more hyperlink for tonight http://www.gnu.org/software/gnue/faq/toothbrush.html xul driver for forms brilliant from the faq on xul, that brings up the idea of a python/html based driver with w3c standards in mind as well In a sense, anything that can render a *.gfd file is a GNUe Forms client and the downloadable Forms client is just a "reference implementation" In practice, it is probably the only reasonably working implementation at the moment ;-) love the toothbrush article :) no no, you guys have it right this is the way to do it i've run dev teams that built many web based applications its just not a natural fit web based is absolutely right where you have no control over client systems and have to rely on the fact that everyone with Windows already has IE and everyone with GNU/Linux already has Mozilla/Konq/whatever and you have fairly simple input Using traditional web as the basis of a full ERP or anything similar# is like trying to do calligraphy with your feet You can do it, but it's not the right tool, and you'll dislocate your big toe ;-) That's today's entry for the "over-extended metaphor contest" ahahahaha :) i love that yes yes absolutely i have also noticed the tendency to build forms based apps in java and for some reason those apps never reach a level of stability where i hear positive input from users the only way to do it is as per Oracle Forms in Java or the SAP equivalent which is to effectively write a proper Forms client in Java & write for that *nod* In which case, you don't really have a web-application just a web-accesible one which is a subtle but important distinction heh exactly! which inevitably leads to hosting your application in a much large application and completely killing the user experience there's a slashdot article recently about xforms dont know how good that is. i read that, its interesting if its like most slashdot, the article is probably quite useful kind of outlines the different xforms approaches imho they are all faulty but the comments just prove Andy Warhol's quote that "99% of everything is crap" psu: no shit, sherlock. welcome to moderation! heh :) slash is great if you want a quick insight into the tech/dev mind about a particular topic its like having your finger on the pulse of the situation at that particular moment I prefer Oscar Wilde's line - "Moderation in all things, including moderation.2 yep. is gnue gui written in wxpython or is it all c? psu: and there you have slashdot. i.e. metamoderation heh is what they call it As I understand it, wxPython is just a python wrapper for the wx toolkit so, in effect, we are using the C-based wx toolkit via Python ah okay Of course, I may be mistaken ah! yes there is the link on the wxpython page interesting i didnt know that i mostly read good things about wxwindows in general wxPython was just a quick way of getting a GUI to work on GNU/Linux, BSD, Win32, Apple all at once *Nod* Focus recently has been on writing more platform-specific plug-ins for the Forms client now to find the right debian package as appearently gnue requires it :) heh /leave #gnuenterprise late lunch (13:57)... psu (psu@public1-wear2-3-cust70.leed.broadband.ntl.com) left #gnuenterprise. SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-6.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise. dimas (~dimas@195.218.177.46) left irc: "÷ÙÛÅÌ ÉÚ XChat" dsmith (~user@mail.actron.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-64-191-10.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (~user@mail.actron.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection dsmith (~user@mail.actron.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (~jbailey@199.212.225.1) joined #gnuenterprise. Vee2d2 (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ts46v-07.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) left irc: Connection timed out Vee2d2 (~vin@c66.169.136.41.ts46v-07.ftwrth.tx.charter.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard wendall911 (~wendallc@torus.nidaho.net) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "Real programmers don't comment their code. If it was hard to write, it should be hard to understand." dneighbo (~dneighbo@ip68-109-180-32.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #gnuenterprise. derek (~dneighbo@ip68-109-180-32.ph.ph.cox.net) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) dsmith (~user@mail.actron.com) left irc: "be root, reboot" dsmith (~user@mail.actron.com) joined #gnuenterprise. Vee (~mike@66.182.192.34) left irc: Remote closed the connection Vee (~mike@66.182.192.34) joined #gnuenterprise. thierry (~thierry@AMarseille-207-1-9-144.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) thierry (~thierry@AMarseille-207-1-9-66.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #gnuenterprise. holycow (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.63.57) joined #gnuenterprise. dcmwai_ (~dcmwai@219.95.63.57) joined #gnuenterprise. dcmwai_ (~dcmwai@219.95.63.57) left irc: Client Quit dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.63.57) left irc: "Client exiting" mouns (mouns@kali.mouns.org) joined #gnuenterprise. holycow (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (~user@mail.actron.com) left irc: "Happy New Year Folks!" ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) joined #gnuenterprise. ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" psu (psu@public1-wear2-3-cust70.leed.broadband.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. hmm guess everyone here must be idleing psu: Decided to come here to ring in the new year? just 1.75 hours to go here... hmm http://www.fsf.org/thankgnus/2003supporters.html Contributors ($500 to $999) Microsoft Giving Campaign Action: psu is guessing this is an employee-lead fund rather than anything corporate *lol* yeah, probably. But you never know. =) but still, gotta take some guts at Redmond HQ to put FSF down on your "Payroll Giving Form" options omfg hahaha :) thats great :) but kudos (I suppose) to M$ for allowing it Of course, someone is going to spoil it by telling me US employers are not allowed to interfere in employee giving schemes or somesuch Or that it was required by the anti-trust suit. =) hehe Action: holycow waves to all hmm... maybe it's down in m$'s books as "Payment for intellectual property possibily infringed" right on the line after the $10m to SCO ;-) After all, it is "GNU/Linux" ISTR that Microsoft use SAP as their ERP system Doesn't pretty much everyone with any money? It's possible they might have switched to Great Plains these days, in a fit of "eating own dogfood" but I seriously doubt it MS has never been strong on dogfood. SAP is like the anti-Burger King They never ran msmail. BK - "Have it your way, with BK!" SAP - "Have it our way with SAP" howdy howdy jamest I told holycow lots of things earlier about the project hopefully even some of them accurate ;-) we can hope :) if not, no biggie, just blame derek for anything that was wrong Mostly I just cut & pasted links to old Kernel Cousins, so it is all derek's fault anyway good for allowing himself to be misquoted ;-) if people wonder why I'm playing hookie http://www.adrius.org/~jamest/wip.png winner of the more inappropiate use of the gnue code base s/more/most hahaha psu :) i on the other hand mostly raved about the project heh anyway, gotta go from the website its not entirely clear how the framework operates so psu explained some of that to me see you all in 2004 ;-) have a good holiday psu (psu@public1-wear2-3-cust70.leed.broadband.ntl.com) left #gnuenterprise. happy new years and allthat junk :) bonané happy new year everybody wendall911 (~wendallc@torus.nidaho.net) left #gnuenterprise. jcater (www-data@209.234.155.8) joined #gnuenterprise. SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-6.wasp.net.au) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) jcater (www-data@209.234.155.8) left irc: "CGI:IRC 0.5 (EOF)" jbailey (~jbailey@199.212.225.1) left irc: "Client exiting" JoeH (~JoeHungus@adsl-068-209-202-005.sip.hsv.bellsouth.net) joined #gnuenterprise. sjc (~sjc@cpc2-seve3-4-0-cust112.popl.cable.ntl.com) left irc: "Client exiting" JoeH (~JoeHungus@adsl-068-209-202-005.sip.hsv.bellsouth.net) left irc: ToyMan (~stuq@user-0cevdks.cable.mindspring.com) joined #gnuenterprise. mouns (mouns@kali.mouns.org) left irc: Remote closed the connection dcmwai (~dcmwai@219.95.56.214) joined #gnuenterprise. anyone home? I've a few question about the license how can I ask someone to Join a FSF Group Just like last time jcater do? I meant that person is protected under FSF for GPL development. Action: dcmwai will be waiting for answer today. Nick change: dcmwai -> dcmwai|AWAY Action: dcmwai|AWAY is away: Away From Computer holycow (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) left irc: "Leaving" Nick change: dneighbo -> derek holycow (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise. holycow: its holycow hey :) i saw some of your conversation with psu the other day i hope you didn't laugh too much :) holycow (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) left irc: "Leaving" holycow (~rtaylor@h24-86-227-8.vf.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise. ToyMan (~stuq@user-0cevdks.cable.mindspring.com) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) --- Thu Jan 1 2004