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<LuftHans> moin, moin reinhard
<reinhard> good morning
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<SachaS> hi everyone
<derek> hi
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<lupo> hi people
<lupo> i'm installing gnue on a friend's computer
<lupo> got a little problem: where the hell do i get wxgtk 2.2 for python 2.2 ?
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<myname> hi everybody. I just want to introduce myself. I am a newbie and i am very interested about this project. And i am in the process to learn everything i can and help others of course if it is at my hand
<myname> I am connected from Mexico. I want to apologize for my english then
<dtm> myname: your English is fine :)
<myname> sometimes a would enter as "myname" or "jreynaga". Here, my connection is not so stable sometime it kicks me out.
<myname> Is everybody here are python developers?
<jamest> gnue is 100% python
<jamest> is that what you ask?
<myname> yes, I just to want to know if everybody here know how to program in python, thanks
<myname> I want to learn this language and i am in the process
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<jamest> anonymous cvs vs anonymous svn
<jamest> any thoughts?
Action: jamest is being nice and vague
<btami> hi jamest, and all
<btami> what is the difference?
<btami> from a users point of view
<jamest> svn co svn://www.gnuenterprise.org/some/repostitory
<jamest> vs
<jamest> http://www.gnu.org/software/gnue/community/cvs.html
<jamest> er
<jamest> svn co svn://www.gnuenterprise.org/some/repostitory/gnue gnue
<btami> ok, and what is the easyest to set up for you :)
Action: btami votes to svn, if it's count
<jamest> i dunno
<btami> it's only 1 line to type for co all gnue
<jamest> we talked about setting up a svn->cvs script and using sourceforge anon cvs
<jamest> but I'm not sure who wants to do that
<jamest> turning on anon svn is already done :)  but there may be bandwidth issues
<btami> i see
<btami> we can start with svn, and is it's not enough we can change later to sf
<btami> s/is/if
<btami> btw. jamest, i have two problems
<btami> 1. you started to use epydoc
<btami> do you plan to use python docstrings instead of #bla-bla
<btami> as a gnue standard?
<btami> it would be a good idea 
<btami> 2. what do you think about new entry level triggers?
<btami> for example: i want to use a dropdown to select from different 
<jamest> i suggested epydoc as an option but not using it
<btami> kind of codes
<jamest> python recently also added pydoc module to itself IIRC
<nickr> #bla-bla
<btami> the reason i'v take with 1. is
<btami> i have a full time developer(employee)
<btami> and there is no API docs for triggers etc.
<btami> if we use python docstrig in class/func def
<btami> epydoc/pydoc can help a little
<jamest> i'd really like to see some kind of documention standard if we can agree upon one
<jamest> and samples of everything need put in the gnue-common developers guide
<jamest> i need to update that and add runtime settings tutorial and GParser tutorial
<jamest> triggers were going to come later, i add them as I use them in other projects :)
<btami> do you know why gnue developers never use python docstrings ?
<btami> i think it's a useful python feature
<btami> but it seems it's ignored here :(
<jamest> that's probably my fault
<jamest> as i find them ugly so never used them when I started forms
<jamest> as other people started working on gnue they probably just stuck with the style I started with
<jamest> #
<jamest> # comments above functs
<jamest> #
<jamest> # Note: damn few of them
<btami> yes, it's me too :)
<jamest> :)
<btami> have you changed your (ugly)opinion when tried epydoc?
<jamest> they're still ugly :)
<btami> :)
<jamest> soya3d uses them alot and I find the code harder to read
<jamest> def foo(self):
<jamest> """ Some times
<jamest> er
<jamest> here is sample
<jamest>      
<jamest>   def __sub__(self, vector):
<jamest>     """GraphicElement - Vector -> Point
<jamest> Translates a GraphicElement's position and returns the result (as a new Point).
<jamest> Coordinates system conversion is performed if needed (=if the GraphicElement and
<jamest> VECTOR are not defined in the same coordinates system)."""
<jamest> completely breaks the flow of the indention
<jamest> bbi1h, lunch time!
<jcater> I personally detest the """ style
<jcater> hard to read
<jcater> but I guess it's standard
<jamest> back
<jamest> for me """ is ugly and breaks up the indentation of the doc
<jamest> s/doc/file
<jamest> but if it's standard then that's a huge + in it's favor
<jamest> and having the pydoc command rocks
<jcater> I thought pydoc understood both
<jamest> that would rock
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<damokles> Hi all.
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<jamest> so did we agree on anything at all ?
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<reinhard> as to [e]pydoc
<reinhard> personally i am opposed to inline documentation
<reinhard> (if my opinion counts)
<reinhard> for several reasons:
<reinhard> * it makes the code harder to read
<reinhard> * it makes it much harder to have code and documentation done by different people
<reinhard> * it makes you write docs from the code's point of view (instead of the user's point of view)
<reinhard> YMMV
<jcater> I think the docs created my pydoc are class descriptions, method descriptions, etc
<jcater> not users docs
<jcater> fwiw
<btami> reinhard: gnue (and every program) _uses_ inline documentation
<btami> it's called "comments"
<btami> and it is for programmers of course
<btami> the question is:
<btami> """ or #
<btami> and the question is for class/func defs only
<btami> for help new programmers understand the object hierarchy etc.
<btami> but if (e)pydoc can use some form of #-style comments
<btami> i don't not push """ anymore :)
<reinhard> in case i was not clear
<reinhard> with "user" i mean for example "user of gnue-common", that is somebody that wants to use gnue-common in his program
<btami> # =============================================================================
<btami> # Dictionary with classes
<btami> # =============================================================================
<btami> class ClassDict (BaseDictionary):
<btami>   # ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
<btami>   # Create a dictionary with all classes [from a specified module]
<btami>   # ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
<btami>   def __init__ (self, session, moduleDict, module = None, definition = None):
<btami> this is _your_ inline documentation from appserver's Class.py
<reinhard> btami: i understand what you mean
<btami> ok
<jcater> jamest: looking thru the epydoc stuff
<jcater> it appears that """ """ doesn't have to break your indentation
<jcater> def test(): 
<jcater>    """
<jcater>    foo
<jcater>    """
<jcater> will work just as well... looks like it takes left indent into account
<jcater> I still don't like it though
<jcater> but I guess because I'm in the habit of the other way
<btami> :)
<jamest> old dog
<jamest> new trick
<jcater> I really would like web-browsable class/method descriptions though
<jcater> so maybe I just have to "learn"
<jamest> i want java doc web style api docs
<jamest> reinhard: i don't see this as replacing good coder docs
<jamest> or even the non-good kind we've been writing
<reinhard> who would be the target reader of the [e]pydocs?
<jcater> me
<reinhard> lol
<jcater> seriously
<jcater> I think it's more for the developers
<jcater> i.e., us
<jcater> and jamest too
<jcater> (he's committed a few things here and there)
Action: jcater ducks
<btami> yes, it's for developers and for _new_ developers, if they comes...
<reinhard> now for that i would think that it would be more efficient to take actions to make the code more readable
<jcater> what do you mean?
<reinhard> well i don't want to be a thinkhead
<reinhard> but basically i see it as there are 2 kinds of people
<reinhard> people that want to understand the code
<reinhard> and people that want to use the code (as in using a library)
<reinhard> and inline docs aren't the optimal way for either of them
<reinhard> but as i said that's a very personal opinion
<reinhard> resulting from very personal experiences
<reinhard> and i won't stand against it if the majority is for it
<jcater> I agree w/your reasoning mostly
<jcater> but this isn't different than what we do now
<chillywilly> bleh
<jcater> the only question is should we change the comment format from # to """
<chillywilly> BLEH
<jcater> so we can get use out of epydoc generated class structures
<jcater> so it's not more work
<jcater> just a change in commenting style
<jcater> we already have inline comments
<chillywilly> erm, I need mass doses of caffiene
<jcater> just no way to extract them
<chillywilly> should go to the gas station but it is wicked cold out
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<btami> jcater: this is the point
<siesel> hi all
<chillywilly> jcater: how's the temp down there?
<reinhard> hi siesel
<reinhard> i think you should read the logs
<chillywilly> hello siesel 
<jcater> chillywilly: was 16 last night
<btami> hi siesel
<jcater> now in the 40s I think
<chillywilly> jcater: wind chill?
<jcater> colder than a penguin's arge
<jcater> err
<jcater> arse
<chillywilly> haha
<jcater> I dunno exactly
<jcater> but it's cold
<chillywilly> all I know is that it is so cold here that it hurts to be outside
<jcater> there was another documenting program
<jcater> that could read our current style
<jcater> what was that?
<jcater> someone even generated it one time
<jamest> um
<jamest> happy doc?
<jamest> epydoc
<jamest> pydoc
<jamest> and there was another 
<jamest> pythondoc
<jcater> happydoc is the one
<jamest> reinhard: is the tutorial in common more what you want?
<reinhard> jamest: which file do you mean?
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<jamest> doc/Developers-Guide.sxw
<jamest> it's meant as a tutorial for each gnue-common feature
<siesel_> * siesel reading logs
<siesel_> * siesel agrees with jamest that having java web style docs would be fine
<siesel_> <siesel> and I think this is what btami and jcater would like too
<siesel_> <siesel> but I'm against the """ python doc inline style.
<siesel_> <siesel> But there is IMHO a programm which accepts java style command lines like
<siesel_> <siesel> # My function
<siesel_> <siesel> # bla
[15:22] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<reinhard> I guess yes
Action: siesel_ hates connection problems
<reinhard> jamest: this is what i mean with "user docs"
<jamest> python doc reads
<jamest> er
<jamest> pythondoc
<jamest> ##
<jamest> # this is a comment
<jamest> #
<jamest> # @param foo.....
<jamest> but i think it's web doc samples suck
<siesel_> thats bad, but I think its better to have "sucking" web docs than bad inline comment style in all XX thousand gnue files :)
<jcater> siesel: I'm not sure how to grok that statement
<jamest> jcater: i'll translate
<jamest> you have too many .py files
<jamest> freaks
<siesel_> lol
<jamest> oh and anything is better than nother wrt docs
<jamest> love siesel
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<siesel_> jcater: I mean we shouldn't use python comments because of two reasons
<jamest> reinhard: that's exactly the kind of users docs we have
Action: jamest noticed after reinhard said "this is what i mean with "user docs"" he followed it with nothing
<siesel_> a) its much easier to add another converter function to the pythondoc program to get nicer webpage output than changing thousands of gnue files
<siesel_> b) standart python doc style sucks
<siesel_> c) just add a ## at the beginning of our nowadays comments and pythondoc will work
<reinhard> jamest: well i meant that in an explaining way
<reinhard> jamest: this is ok we have good user docs
<reinhard> jamest: and if we also have readable code i don't know what we would need more
<reinhard> jamest: as a developer that wants to hack the code i never looked at web docs, i always looked at the code itself
<reinhard> jamest: that's basically what i wanted to say
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<reinhard> anyway, must go watch news
<reinhard> bbl
Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away
<jcater> one big advantage of web docs instead of looking at the code
<jcater> is you can quickly track inheritance
<jcater> iirc
<jcater> not sure if pythondoc did this, or another
<jamest> http://epydoc.sourceforge.net/stdlib/
<siesel_> btw. what about directly use LXR to get the whole source code in a web interface,
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<siesel_> I dunno if can show inheritence.
<jcater> siesel_: that was one of the reasons to move to our own cvs server
<jcater> we just haven't gotten around to it
<jcater> does lxr do svn?
<waan> hi all
<jcater> hi
<jamest> that url is what in my opinion would be ideal
<waan> I followed your discussion about documenting which ist quite interesting. 
<waan> bye
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<jcater> hmm
<btami> democracy is hard :)
<jcater> I wonder if in that sentence
<jcater> he left out the "n" in isn't
<jcater> or added the extra "t" and meant "is"
<btami> maybe the latter :)
<siesel_> or he spoke genglish (german-english)  "ist" ~ "is"
<siesel_> btw. lxr doesn't support python :(
<jcater> are you sure?
<jcater> I thought they moved to ctags 
<jcater> instead of their native processor
<siesel_> I haven't fully tested, but just looked at: http://electra.lbl.gov/lxr/http/source/GaudiPython/v5r0p1/home/AnalysisInit.py
<siesel_> as they have no good documentation
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<jamest> so?
Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard
<jamest> what are we doing now?
<jcater> the hampster dance?
<jamest> not s/are we/would jcater would like to be/
<jamest> we've got lots of doc options
<jamest> along with a suggestion we make the code readable
<jamest> (i suggest we ban that dude though)
<reinhard> jamest: i didn not mean to say that the code isn't readable
<reinhard> :)
<jcater> just that some people might think it isn't, right?
<reinhard> i just meant it isn't *understand*able
<reinhard> ;-)
<reinhard> j/k
Action: jcater looks for the thwap-sticj
<jcater> tick
<jcater> stick
<jcater> whatever
<jamest> explains alot about why the code isn't redable
<jamest> reaable
<jamest> readable
<reinhard> rofl
<jamest> doesn't it?
<jcater> btie me
<jamest> =)
Action: btami feels that the original suggestion (""" for help better (e)pydoc output) has lost
<btami> or not? :)
<jcater> dunno
<jamest> i can live with """ if it gives the best docs
<jamest> and with the little time I had for it today it seems that """ is supported more often in python circles
<jcater> one question though
<jcater> how does that affect the size of generated/loaded code?
<jcater> as in a running program
<jcater> I can do, print self.__doc__
<jamest> right
<jamest> it's inside the class now
<jcater> what does that do to memory requirements
<btami> i have to notice some __doc__ in jcaters refactored dbdriver's :)
<jamest> bloats them?
<btami> and __description__ and __examples__ etc.
<jamest> what?!?!?
<jamest> jcater's is doc'ing stuff?
Action: jamest falls from chair
Action: btami ducks
<jcater> I did?
<jcater> oh, yeah
Action: jcater falls out of his own chair
<jamest> you fewl!!!!!!
<jamest> they'll come to expect this!
<jamest> you best pull a gnue-reports on that code base
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<jamest> so that even documentation won't help them
Action: jamest ducks behind btami
<btami> lol
<jcater> well, if I have to vote on the issue
<jcater> I vote for ice cream
<jamest> sigh, that's not an option
<jamest> and before you say it, neither is that
Action: btami have to sleep
<btami> bye
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<reinhard> well
<reinhard> i think i have to leave quickly before it comes to deciding
<reinhard> ;-)
<reinhard> night all
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<jamest> nice dodge btami, reinhard
<dsmith> Well, *I* think the """ doc sutff is better. ;^)
<jamest> seems more standard
<jamest> i may try and play with that some tonight 
<jamest> see how bad it truly is
<jamest> :)
<jamest> l8r
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<jamest> welcome mr bailey
<dtm> Yes.  We've been...... *expecting* you.
<jbailey> Oh no!
<jbailey> It's agent elron.
<jbailey> "Welcome to rivendell, Mr. frodo..."
<jamest> the shire
<jamest> canada
<jamest> both seem almost mythical to me
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<jamest> welcome back
<jbailey> Thanks, James.
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