LuftHans (~lufthans@wsip-68-107-221-207.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dyfet (~dyfet@pool-141-153-181-72.mad.east.verizon.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dyfet (~dyfet@pool-141-153-181-72.mad.east.verizon.net) left irc: "Client exiting" reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. moin, moin reinhard good morning LuftHans (~lufthans@wsip-68-107-221-207.ph.ph.cox.net) left irc: "Leaving" sjc (~sjc@cpc2-seve3-4-0-cust112.popl.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. sjc (~sjc@cpc2-seve3-4-0-cust112.popl.cable.ntl.com) left irc: Client Quit sjc (~sjc@cpc2-seve3-4-0-cust112.popl.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. sjc (~sjc@cpc2-seve3-4-0-cust112.popl.cable.ntl.com) left #gnuenterprise ("Client exiting"). dimas (~dimas@195.218.177.46) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-176.wasp.net.au) joined #gnuenterprise. hi everyone hi SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-176.wasp.net.au) got netsplit. 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SachaS (~Sacha@dialup-196-176.wasp.net.au) left irc: Excess Flood dimas (~dimas@195.218.177.46) joined #gnuenterprise. lxf (~agus_tea@202.73.120.151) joined #gnuenterprise. jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. lupo (~lupo@pD9542B1B.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. hi people i'm installing gnue on a friend's computer got a little problem: where the hell do i get wxgtk 2.2 for python 2.2 ? lupo (~lupo@pD9542B1B.dip.t-dialin.net) left #gnuenterprise. jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) joined #gnuenterprise. dsmith (~user@mail.actron.com) joined #gnuenterprise. sjc (~sjc@cpc2-seve3-4-0-cust112.popl.cable.ntl.com) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "This sentence no verb." jreynaga (~jreynaga@dsl-200-78-114-213.prod-infinitum.com.mx) joined #gnuenterprise. myname (~myname@dsl-200-78-114-213.prod-infinitum.com.mx) joined #gnuenterprise. jreynaga (~jreynaga@dsl-200-78-114-213.prod-infinitum.com.mx) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) lxf (~agus_tea@202.73.120.151) left irc: hi everybody. I just want to introduce myself. I am a newbie and i am very interested about this project. And i am in the process to learn everything i can and help others of course if it is at my hand I am connected from Mexico. I want to apologize for my english then myname: your English is fine :) sometimes a would enter as "myname" or "jreynaga". Here, my connection is not so stable sometime it kicks me out. Is everybody here are python developers? gnue is 100% python is that what you ask? yes, I just to want to know if everybody here know how to program in python, thanks I want to learn this language and i am in the process myname (~myname@dsl-200-78-114-213.prod-infinitum.com.mx) left irc: "Leaving" jreynaga (~jreynaga@dsl-200-78-114-213.prod-infinitum.com.mx) joined #gnuenterprise. myname (~jreynaga@dsl-200-78-114-213.prod-infinitum.com.mx) joined #gnuenterprise. jreynaga (~jreynaga@dsl-200-78-114-213.prod-infinitum.com.mx) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) btami (~tamas@wrr.napnet.hu) joined #gnuenterprise. wendall911 (~wendallc@torus.nidaho.net) joined #gnuenterprise. anonymous cvs vs anonymous svn any thoughts? Action: jamest is being nice and vague hi jamest, and all what is the difference? from a users point of view svn co svn://www.gnuenterprise.org/some/repostitory vs http://www.gnu.org/software/gnue/community/cvs.html er svn co svn://www.gnuenterprise.org/some/repostitory/gnue gnue ok, and what is the easyest to set up for you :) Action: btami votes to svn, if it's count i dunno it's only 1 line to type for co all gnue we talked about setting up a svn->cvs script and using sourceforge anon cvs but I'm not sure who wants to do that turning on anon svn is already done :) but there may be bandwidth issues i see we can start with svn, and is it's not enough we can change later to sf s/is/if btw. jamest, i have two problems 1. you started to use epydoc do you plan to use python docstrings instead of #bla-bla as a gnue standard? it would be a good idea 2. what do you think about new entry level triggers? for example: i want to use a dropdown to select from different i suggested epydoc as an option but not using it kind of codes python recently also added pydoc module to itself IIRC #bla-bla the reason i'v take with 1. is i have a full time developer(employee) and there is no API docs for triggers etc. if we use python docstrig in class/func def epydoc/pydoc can help a little i'd really like to see some kind of documention standard if we can agree upon one and samples of everything need put in the gnue-common developers guide i need to update that and add runtime settings tutorial and GParser tutorial triggers were going to come later, i add them as I use them in other projects :) do you know why gnue developers never use python docstrings ? i think it's a useful python feature but it seems it's ignored here :( that's probably my fault as i find them ugly so never used them when I started forms as other people started working on gnue they probably just stuck with the style I started with # # comments above functs # # Note: damn few of them yes, it's me too :) :) have you changed your (ugly)opinion when tried epydoc? they're still ugly :) :) soya3d uses them alot and I find the code harder to read def foo(self): """ Some times er here is sample def __sub__(self, vector): """GraphicElement - Vector -> Point Translates a GraphicElement's position and returns the result (as a new Point). Coordinates system conversion is performed if needed (=if the GraphicElement and VECTOR are not defined in the same coordinates system).""" completely breaks the flow of the indention bbi1h, lunch time! I personally detest the """ style hard to read but I guess it's standard back for me """ is ugly and breaks up the indentation of the doc s/doc/file but if it's standard then that's a huge + in it's favor and having the pydoc command rocks I thought pydoc understood both that would rock jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) left irc: "Client exiting" jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) joined #gnuenterprise. jreynaga (~jreynaga@148.223.77.243) joined #gnuenterprise. damokles (~damokle@pD954D738.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. Hi all. dneighbo (~dneighbo@ip68-109-180-32.ph.ph.cox.net) joined #gnuenterprise. reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) joined #gnuenterprise. myname (~jreynaga@dsl-200-78-114-213.prod-infinitum.com.mx) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) damokles (~damokle@pD954D738.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: "bye all" jreynaga (~jreynaga@148.223.77.243) left irc: "Leaving" so did we agree on anything at all ? derek (~dneighbo@ip68-109-180-32.ph.ph.cox.net) left irc: Connection timed out as to [e]pydoc personally i am opposed to inline documentation (if my opinion counts) for several reasons: * it makes the code harder to read * it makes it much harder to have code and documentation done by different people * it makes you write docs from the code's point of view (instead of the user's point of view) YMMV I think the docs created my pydoc are class descriptions, method descriptions, etc not users docs fwiw reinhard: gnue (and every program) _uses_ inline documentation it's called "comments" and it is for programmers of course the question is: """ or # and the question is for class/func defs only for help new programmers understand the object hierarchy etc. but if (e)pydoc can use some form of #-style comments i don't not push """ anymore :) in case i was not clear with "user" i mean for example "user of gnue-common", that is somebody that wants to use gnue-common in his program # ============================================================================= # Dictionary with classes # ============================================================================= class ClassDict (BaseDictionary): # --------------------------------------------------------------------------- # Create a dictionary with all classes [from a specified module] # --------------------------------------------------------------------------- def __init__ (self, session, moduleDict, module = None, definition = None): this is _your_ inline documentation from appserver's Class.py btami: i understand what you mean ok jamest: looking thru the epydoc stuff it appears that """ """ doesn't have to break your indentation def test(): """ foo """ will work just as well... looks like it takes left indent into account I still don't like it though but I guess because I'm in the habit of the other way :) old dog new trick I really would like web-browsable class/method descriptions though so maybe I just have to "learn" i want java doc web style api docs reinhard: i don't see this as replacing good coder docs or even the non-good kind we've been writing who would be the target reader of the [e]pydocs? me lol seriously I think it's more for the developers i.e., us and jamest too (he's committed a few things here and there) Action: jcater ducks yes, it's for developers and for _new_ developers, if they comes... now for that i would think that it would be more efficient to take actions to make the code more readable what do you mean? well i don't want to be a thinkhead but basically i see it as there are 2 kinds of people people that want to understand the code and people that want to use the code (as in using a library) and inline docs aren't the optimal way for either of them but as i said that's a very personal opinion resulting from very personal experiences and i won't stand against it if the majority is for it I agree w/your reasoning mostly but this isn't different than what we do now bleh the only question is should we change the comment format from # to """ BLEH so we can get use out of epydoc generated class structures so it's not more work just a change in commenting style we already have inline comments erm, I need mass doses of caffiene just no way to extract them should go to the gas station but it is wicked cold out siesel (jan@xdsl-213-168-116-20.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater: this is the point hi all jcater: how's the temp down there? hi siesel i think you should read the logs hello siesel chillywilly: was 16 last night hi siesel now in the 40s I think jcater: wind chill? colder than a penguin's arge err arse haha I dunno exactly but it's cold all I know is that it is so cold here that it hurts to be outside there was another documenting program that could read our current style what was that? someone even generated it one time um happy doc? epydoc pydoc and there was another pythondoc happydoc is the one reinhard: is the tutorial in common more what you want? jamest: which file do you mean? siesel_ (jan@xdsl-195-14-207-22.netcologne.de) joined #gnuenterprise. doc/Developers-Guide.sxw it's meant as a tutorial for each gnue-common feature * siesel reading logs * siesel agrees with jamest that having java web style docs would be fine and I think this is what btami and jcater would like too but I'm against the """ python doc inline style. But there is IMHO a programm which accepts java style command lines like # My function # bla [15:22] Last message repeated 1 time(s). I guess yes Action: siesel_ hates connection problems jamest: this is what i mean with "user docs" python doc reads er pythondoc ## # this is a comment # # @param foo..... but i think it's web doc samples suck thats bad, but I think its better to have "sucking" web docs than bad inline comment style in all XX thousand gnue files :) siesel: I'm not sure how to grok that statement jcater: i'll translate you have too many .py files freaks lol oh and anything is better than nother wrt docs love siesel ToyMan (~stuq@smtp.dstoys.com) left irc: "Client Exiting" jcater: I mean we shouldn't use python comments because of two reasons reinhard: that's exactly the kind of users docs we have Action: jamest noticed after reinhard said "this is what i mean with "user docs"" he followed it with nothing a) its much easier to add another converter function to the pythondoc program to get nicer webpage output than changing thousands of gnue files b) standart python doc style sucks c) just add a ## at the beginning of our nowadays comments and pythondoc will work jamest: well i meant that in an explaining way jamest: this is ok we have good user docs jamest: and if we also have readable code i don't know what we would need more jamest: as a developer that wants to hack the code i never looked at web docs, i always looked at the code itself jamest: that's basically what i wanted to say siesel (jan@xdsl-213-168-116-20.netcologne.de) left irc: Connection timed out anyway, must go watch news bbl Nick change: reinhard -> rm-away one big advantage of web docs instead of looking at the code is you can quickly track inheritance iirc not sure if pythondoc did this, or another http://epydoc.sourceforge.net/stdlib/ btw. what about directly use LXR to get the whole source code in a web interface, waan (~waan@pD9E45D41.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #gnuenterprise. I dunno if can show inheritence. siesel_: that was one of the reasons to move to our own cvs server we just haven't gotten around to it does lxr do svn? hi all hi that url is what in my opinion would be ideal I followed your discussion about documenting which ist quite interesting. bye waan (~waan@pD9E45D41.dip.t-dialin.net) left #gnuenterprise. hmm democracy is hard :) I wonder if in that sentence he left out the "n" in isn't or added the extra "t" and meant "is" maybe the latter :) or he spoke genglish (german-english) "ist" ~ "is" btw. lxr doesn't support python :( are you sure? I thought they moved to ctags instead of their native processor I haven't fully tested, but just looked at: http://electra.lbl.gov/lxr/http/source/GaudiPython/v5r0p1/home/AnalysisInit.py as they have no good documentation siesel_ (jan@xdsl-195-14-207-22.netcologne.de) left irc: "Client exiting" so? Nick change: rm-away -> reinhard what are we doing now? the hampster dance? not s/are we/would jcater would like to be/ we've got lots of doc options along with a suggestion we make the code readable (i suggest we ban that dude though) jamest: i didn not mean to say that the code isn't readable :) just that some people might think it isn't, right? i just meant it isn't *understand*able ;-) j/k Action: jcater looks for the thwap-sticj tick stick whatever explains alot about why the code isn't redable reaable readable rofl doesn't it? btie me =) Action: btami feels that the original suggestion (""" for help better (e)pydoc output) has lost or not? :) dunno i can live with """ if it gives the best docs and with the little time I had for it today it seems that """ is supported more often in python circles one question though how does that affect the size of generated/loaded code? as in a running program I can do, print self.__doc__ right it's inside the class now what does that do to memory requirements i have to notice some __doc__ in jcaters refactored dbdriver's :) bloats them? and __description__ and __examples__ etc. what?!?!? jcater's is doc'ing stuff? Action: jamest falls from chair Action: btami ducks I did? oh, yeah Action: jcater falls out of his own chair you fewl!!!!!! they'll come to expect this! you best pull a gnue-reports on that code base jreynaga (~jreynaga@dsl-200-78-114-213.prod-infinitum.com.mx) joined #gnuenterprise. so that even documentation won't help them Action: jamest ducks behind btami lol well, if I have to vote on the issue I vote for ice cream sigh, that's not an option and before you say it, neither is that Action: btami have to sleep bye btami (~tamas@wrr.napnet.hu) left irc: "l8r" nenhum (juanjo@213.60.8.184) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (~jbailey@199.212.225.1) joined #gnuenterprise. myname (~jreynaga@148.223.77.243) joined #gnuenterprise. jreynaga (~jreynaga@dsl-200-78-114-213.prod-infinitum.com.mx) left irc: Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) well i think i have to leave quickly before it comes to deciding ;-) night all reinhard (~reinhard@M1264P004.adsl.highway.telekom.at) left irc: "There's always one more imbecile than you expect." sjc (~sjc@cpc2-seve3-4-0-cust112.popl.cable.ntl.com) left #gnuenterprise ("Client exiting"). nice dodge btami, reinhard Well, *I* think the """ doc sutff is better. ;^) seems more standard i may try and play with that some tonight see how bad it truly is :) l8r jamest (~jamest@gw.math.ksu.edu) left #gnuenterprise ("Client exiting"). nenhum (juanjo@213.60.8.184) left #gnuenterprise ("Client exiting"). dsmith (~user@mail.actron.com) left irc: "Good Night" ToyMan (~stuq@user-0cevdli.cable.mindspring.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (~jbailey@199.212.225.1) left irc: "Client exiting" wendall911 (~wendallc@torus.nidaho.net) left irc: "Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/" ToyMan (~stuq@user-0cevdli.cable.mindspring.com) left irc: Remote closed the connection jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-64-191-10.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) joined #gnuenterprise. jbailey (~jbailey@CPE00062579efac-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #gnuenterprise. welcome mr bailey Yes. We've been...... *expecting* you. Oh no! It's agent elron. "Welcome to rivendell, Mr. frodo..." the shire canada both seem almost mythical to me myname (~jreynaga@148.223.77.243) left irc: "Leaving" jbailey (~jbailey@CPE00062579efac-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) left irc: "Client exiting" jbailey (~jbailey@CPE00062579efac-CM014260028338.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) joined #gnuenterprise. welcome back Thanks, James. jcater_ (~jcater@cpe-066-061-071-147.midsouth.rr.com) joined #gnuenterprise. jcater (~jason@w202.z065105010.mem-tn.dsl.cnc.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection Nick change: jcater_ -> jcater jamest (~jamest@adsl-65-64-191-10.dsl.tpkaks.swbell.net) left irc: "Client exiting" MrKennie_ (Beer@mrkennie.developer.freenode) joined #gnuenterprise. MrKennie (Beer@mrkennie.developer.freenode) left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) jcater (~jcater@cpe-066-061-071-147.midsouth.rr.com) left irc: "Client exiting" bigerbrother joined #gnuenterprise. bigbrother (eggdrop@209.234.155.8) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) Nick change: bigerbrother -> bigbrother --- Thu Jan 8 2004