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<ajmitch> how odd
<ajmitch> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=224161
<ajmitch> I just checked svn, and they're in the current source as well
<reinhard> i think that's a non-breaking space
<reinhard> doesn't belong in the source IMHO
<ajmitch> yeah
<ajmitch> there are a few of them
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<reinhard> ajmitch: 
<ajmitch> reinhard: 
<reinhard> (file) CreateWebForm.py   1.9  2 months  jcater  fixed Python 2.3 warning about file encoding
<ajmitch> hmm
<reinhard> seems this bug is fixed in newest gnue
<reinhard> (svn version)
<reinhard> by adding this line to the top of the file
<reinhard> # -*- coding: iso-8859-1 -*-
<reinhard> #
<ajmitch> alright
<ajmitch> I didn't realise that was a fix :)
<ajmitch> thanks for looking for me
<reinhard> so what were the tags in debians bts for this?
<reinhard> upstream, fixed-upstream
<reinhard> ?
<reinhard> :)
<ajmitch> none
<reinhard> btw it is correct that gnue-forms and gnue-designer should have a build-depends on gnue-common
<reinhard> all others, too, actually
<reinhard> (reports, appserver, navigator)
<ajmitch> yeah, I realise that now :)
<ajmitch> the encoding bug is reported in forms, but it's a designer bug :)
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> also if you're looking for a challenge
<ajmitch> uh oh
<reinhard> you could try to build the gnue-forms-gtk2 package
<ajmitch> right
<reinhard> i'm not sure about gnue-forms-qt
<ajmitch> I was contemplating that
<ajmitch> and I thought - not this week :)
<reinhard> :)
<ajmitch> as it stands, the gnue-forms-wxgtk package has all the forms drivers anyway
<reinhard> really
<reinhard> it doesn't remove the other subdirs in uidrivers??
<ajmitch> including win32 ;)
<ajmitch> there's wx, gtk2, win32, and curses
<ajmitch> it shouldn't be too hard to split that up, and have each depend on gnue-forms
<ajmitch> just split the uidrivers dir into multiple packages, each with its own dependencies
<reinhard> it could be a package gnue-forms that has the common stuff in it
<reinhard> and depends on gnue-forms-wxgtk | gnue-forms-gtk2 | gnue-forms-curses etc.
<ajmitch> right
<reinhard> and each of these depend on gnue-forms
<ajmitch> good idea
<ajmitch> which forms driver works best? :)
<reinhard> and the gnue-forms-* only contain the uidrivers directory
<ajmitch> yes, that's what I was suggesting
<reinhard> depends on what you've got installed on the system
<reinhard> if you're on gnome2, then gtk2 is said to be the best one
<ajmitch> if all libs are installed, which forms driver works best/is most complete?
<reinhard> if you're on kde, probably qt (if it works
<ajmitch> hmm
<ajmitch> maybe just because of visual integration
<ajmitch> but not all forms drivers are equal
<reinhard> if you're on an x-less station, you could use curses
<reinhard> (once *that* works, too) :)
<ajmitch> heh
<reinhard> i think the most advanced one is still wxgtk
<ajmitch> maybe we could use the win32 driver with wine :)
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<kilo> gtk2 is buggy
<ajmitch> describe how
<kilo> win2 works quite well
<kilo> but wine with win32...well should try that
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> only if you're quite sick :)
<kilo> gtk2 dropdowns with static db produce some strange effect
<kilo> try gauntlet.gfd
Action: ajmitch looks
<kilo> you select Maybe. Then select No. It displays MaybeMaybe...
<kilo> if you set focus somewhere else and return it again, then is will show NoNo
<ajmitch> I don't even get that far :)
<kilo> d'you get static driver problem?
Action: ajmitch has issues loading the static driver
<kilo> check yesterdays log (or the day before), search for 'btami'. He issued a soultion for it
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> 1am, can't be stuffed doing much about it right now :)
<ajmitch> I'll fix the debs tomorrow for the problems reported
Action: ajmitch sleep now
<kilo> <btami> in GDataSource.py line 188: from gnue.common.datasources.drivers.special.static import Driver, but static now has Connection instead
<kilo> that is enought to make it work
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<reinhard> kilo: i've committed that fix
<kilo> reinhard: oh, that's fine.
<reinhard> i'm not sure if i can fix the other one
<kilo> the excpetion lost somewhere?
<reinhard> yep
<reinhard> i'd have to understand the code first
<reinhard> and i still have some work to finish before i can gnue again this week
<kilo> well I won't mention the gtk bug then 8-))
<reinhard> hehe
<reinhard> kilo: gtk2?
Action: reinhard is still on gnome 1
<kilo> reinhard: aye, gtk2
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<siesel> hi
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<reinhard> hi siesel
<reinhard> uh oh
<reinhard> you had to fix my fix
<johannesV> :)
<reinhard> siesel: can you also look at the other problem btami reported yesterday?
<reinhard> and do you have something you want in common or appserver before we release?
<siesel> yes, I saw btami's problem and try to fix it
<siesel> about extra features in common / appserver: what release shedule did you think of?
<reinhard> prerelease this week
<reinhard> like 0.0.5.99-pre1 or so
<reinhard> 0.0.6 next week
<reinhard> we have procedures working in appserver
<reinhard> also we have a gnue-gsdgen in appserver
<reinhard> johannesV is working on a much improved gnue-schema
<reinhard> that will be ready this evening or so
Action: reinhard hopes johannesV won't beat him now ;)
<siesel> :)
<johannesV> reinhard: no, it's ok ...
<reinhard> so actually we have enough for a release
<johannesV> improved version will be online soon
<reinhard> johannesV: cool
<siesel> gsd creation for db table creation?
<reinhard> yes
<siesel> good. 
<siesel> johannesV: Does gnue-schema support a overwrite mode?
<siesel> or a create "delete statements" mode?
<johannesV> siesel: no, not at the moment
<reinhard> with gnue-gsdgen you can export a gsd file from appserver's gnue-class, gnue-property etc. tables
<johannesV> siesel: (reinhard disliked that feature) :)
<reinhard> the delete in particular
<johannesV> technically it would be no problem to extend the base processor class 
<siesel> reinhard: I know that its a dangerous tool.
<siesel> but it can be useful if you want to drop/remove the tables of a special module without removing the whole database 
<siesel> and it would be useful for testing too.
<reinhard> i'm not completely opposed
<reinhard> i just didn't see it as a priority
<reinhard> i'd happy accept it as a TODO item for now
<reinhard> (or of course as a contribution :-))
<reinhard> i tried to focus johannesV's and my time on things we need done for the next release
<reinhard> so that we can get it out of the door and make people play with procedures
<reinhard> --
<siesel> btw. do we already have an example with procedures?
<reinhard> siesel: i have a question on a ROADMAP item that probably you wrote
<siesel> yes?
<reinhard> yes we have our flip-flop example :)
<reinhard> Data Interface
<reinhard>   * direct select/update access through new connection object (*)
<reinhard> does that mean SQL passthrough?
<siesel> kind of
<reinhard> through appserver?
<reinhard> i'm not sure if we really want that
<siesel> it means that we don't have to create a Resultset for just updating one row.
<siesel> no, not through appserver but through common.
<reinhard> ah oh
<reinhard> you mean
<siesel> I haven't had the time to look at your cache implementation yet.
<reinhard> make common do UPDATE and DELETE statements without a previous SELECT?
<siesel> but I think it would simplify a lot.
<siesel> yes
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> I agree 100%
<reinhard> even 101% :)
<reinhard> not sure if that should be done with passthrough SQL
<reinhard> or rather with some changes in updateCursor and all that stuff
<siesel> no, no passthrough SQL, but direct access methods
<siesel> it would just mean to implement a update / insert method in the connection object of every dbdriver.
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> and delte
<reinhard> delete
<siesel> yep.
<reinhard> like for inserting, now i have to
<reinhard> 1. createEmptyResultSet
<reinhard> 2. insertRecord
<reinhard> 3. set field values
<reinhard> 4. post
<siesel> and the methods would look like appserver dbdrivers methods
<reinhard> yeah, i think we're on the same page
<reinhard> needs a lot of work in common IMHO
<siesel> dunno, probably we can reuse some parts of the resultset framework
<siesel> I can look into it end of the week
<reinhard> we have also talked about more integration between the scripter part and the dbdriver part
<siesel> tomorow I fly to Taiwan, where I will have some more time
<reinhard> siesel: i'd like to release before
<reinhard> if you don't mind
<reinhard> sure doesn't mean you can't *look* at it :)
<reinhard> re integration dbdriver and scripter
<siesel> before I fly, or before we implement more ?
<reinhard> before we implement more
<reinhard> :)
<siesel> good.
<siesel> The only reason why I want to look into it is that I want to put the routines into common before the release, if possible.
<reinhard> we talked about the possibility to pass a connection name to gnue-schema
<reinhard> and instead of writing sql to a file
<reinhard> it would be directly passed to the database
<siesel> As then we don't need to release appserver and common at the same time -  next time :)
<reinhard> i think we will need another common release with the next appserver release anyway
<reinhard> we use *way* much more from common than we did before
<reinhard> and many of our items on our TODO list mean work in common, anyway
<reinhard> so i don't think we need to hurry here
<reinhard> for example at least 4 of 6 items in our current BUGS list affect common
<reinhard> and i also think we will work further on gnue-schema
<reinhard> after the release
<siesel> ok. I get you're point. But I think we should try, that gnue-appserver and gnue-common development aren't be too strongly connected in terms of features
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> i can agree
<reinhard> where the focus is on *try*
<reinhard> :)
<siesel> but back to gnue-schema. IMHO let gnue-schema write to the database isn't very difficult to implement
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<reinhard> siesel: yes, i agree on that
<reinhard> but it would have architectural consequences
<reinhard> like the schema scripters would have to be integrated in the dbdrivers
<siesel> adding error detection is way more difficult, but that would mean implementing drop table etc. which doesn't have high prio
<reinhard> which would be more correct anyway IMHO
<siesel> I don't fully agree. 
<siesel> it's possible to create the SQL table by table and send it to the driver via the normal dbdriver functions.
<reinhard> let me explain what i meant
<reinhard> IMHO
<reinhard> for example
<reinhard> the file src/schema/scripter/processors/postgresql.py would belong to src/datasources/drivers/postgresql/Schema/...
<reinhard> i meant integration directory structure wise
<reinhard> not merging into a file or so
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<siesel> ok, that's a additional step which IMHO makes sense
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> anyway
<reinhard> what i meant to make clear is that we still have lots of things we can improve in common
<reinhard> and i think i managed to make that clear ;-)
<siesel> But I still would implement the schema stuff as a kind of service  which can be accessed via dbdrivers
<reinhard> yeah, i think i agree
<reinhard> hi jamest
<reinhard> nice login name
<reinhard> :)
<siesel> nevertheless, I'm ok with the PRErelease
<reinhard> excellent
<jamest> hi
<siesel> as the most important aren't features but stability. i.e. we need much testing.
<siesel> hi jamest
<reinhard> siesel: here i couldn't agree more :)
<reinhard> plus we need to show a sign of life, our last release was october
<siesel> ok, I will try to fix the gtk bug now, and will be back online end of week.
<reinhard> siesel: great
<reinhard> siesel: i'll be in brussel fri - sun
<siesel> I would like a time between prerelease and release of 2 weeks, what do you think?
<reinhard> if you're lucky johannesV will be here
<reinhard> hmmm
<siesel> ok. :)
<reinhard> i think that depends what comes in the first week
<reinhard> i'd rather say something like
<reinhard> after a week either release pre2 or final, depending on what was found in pre1
<reinhard> my experience is people test prereleases within 2 days or not at all
<siesel> yes, if they are around :)
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> well, just keep us informed
<siesel> we probably should decide this beginning of the next week.
<reinhard> and if you've still got stuff you want to test, i'm ok to wait of course
<reinhard> ok
<siesel> good. cu then :)
<reinhard> cu siesel
<siesel> und johannesV, ich zaehle am Wochenende auf dich :)
<siesel> ;)
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<reinhard> jamest: in gnue common's ROADMAP.in there is a TODO
<reinhard>   [ Setup Subsystem ]
<reinhard>   Introduction of a GSetup framework designed to make installation
<reinhard>   of our tools easier.
<reinhard> can we consider that done?
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Action: chillywilly hugs python
<jamest> you bet
<jamest> er
<jamest> reinhard: you bet
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<reinhard> jamest: ok
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<reinhard> jcater: i fixed some things for the webpage
<jcater> excellent
<reinhard> however permission problems stopped
<reinhard> me
<jcater> oh
<reinhard> can you do a find . | xargs chmod g+w
<reinhard> and a find . | xargs chgrp www-users
<reinhard> in /var/www and /var/www-cvs
<reinhard> ?
<reinhard> maybe even a find . -type d | xargs chmod g+s
<reinhard> it is correct that on ash we have an anonymous cvs checkout from webcvs?
<reinhard> so nothing what happens on ash gets committed to www.gnu.org, right?
<jcater> err, well, I just did  chgrp -R www-user *; chmod -R g+w  *
<jcater> why the find?
<jcater> done, btw
<dsmith> jcater: Just a different way do to it.
<reinhard> oh
Action: reinhard didn't know chgrp and chmod have -R
Action: reinhard worked with sco way too long
<reinhard> thanks jcater
<jcater> reinhard: lol
Action: dsmith weeps for reinhard 
<jcater> I feel your pain
<dsmith> I think the "find . -type d | xargs chmod g+s" is a good idea though.
<dsmith> Can chmod do that?
<reinhard> jcater: could you also give me write permission to /upkeep/update-website ?
<reinhard> and as a question
<reinhard> currently, /var/www-cvs is copied to /var/www
<reinhard> what about symlinks?
<reinhard> but then again
<reinhard> forget the symlinks :)
<dsmith> g+s is a very good thing on directories.
<reinhard> dsmith: i agree
<reinhard> most have it anyway
<dsmith> On shared dirs where you want to keep a group access anyway.
<reinhard> jcater: i beg for write permission for the files /upkeep/update-website and for the directory /var/www-cvs itself
<jcater> sorry, was fscking w/users
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<jcater> besides, no need to beg
<jcater> donuts are more effective
<reinhard> lol
<jcater> done
<jcater> and /usr/local/bin/update-website
<reinhard> ah ok
<reinhard> did you change the cron job, too?
<jcater>  /upkeep is by nature root-only
<jcater> not yet
<jcater> done
<reinhard> thanks a lot jcater
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> website automatisms are functional
Nick change: dsmith -> dsmith-food
<reinhard> technotes, epydoc and roadmaps live on ash and are removed from www.gnu.org and webcvs
<reinhard> automatic update of the web pages on ash works again, too
<reinhard> ooohhh
<reinhard> it's commit time :)
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<johannesV> reinahrd: i'll commit the new gsd's later, but they'll come today
<johannesV> bbl
<reinhard> bbl
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<ajmitch> hi all
<ajmitch> has anyone seen this occur? http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=224206
<ajmitch> and is dcl still being used on ash for gnue bugs? ;)
Action: ajmitch can't even get forms to run from designer
<reinhard> ajmitch: i *think* i remember this error message but i didn't get it myself
<reinhard> probably because i use gnue w/ python 2.1 and that error is probably 2.3 specific
<ajmitch> at the moment I get sax errors trying to run any form from designer
<ajmitch> DB000:   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/_xmlplus/sax/handler.py", line 38, in fatalError
<ajmitch> DB000:     raise exception
<ajmitch> DB000: xml.sax._exceptions.SAXParseException: <unknown>:1:1: not well-formed (invalid token)
<reinhard> eek
<reinhard> i suppose you run the debian packages?
<ajmitch> yes
<reinhard> very strange
<ajmitch> quite worrying
Action: ajmitch runs a forms query on a small db (13000 rows) and watches python chew the ram
<ajmitch> ah, 60K rows, not 13K
<ajmitch> still, it shouldn't need to load them all into memory :)
<reinhard> agree
Action: ajmitch has found that there are 7 newsgroups on the isp's newsserver for minix ;)
<jcater> ajmitch: which database backend?
Action: jcater finds that surprising, as by default it caches 10 at a time
<ajmitch> mysql
<jcater> iirc
<ajmitch> the crap one ;)
<ajmitch> yes, that's what I assumed too
<holycow> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/35566.html  <-- oops
<holycow> hehe
<wendall911> anybody know of a kernel keyboard command I can do to kill a bad init.d script?
Action: wendall911 is off topic again ;)
<jcater> try Ctrl+\ (kill -9)  or Ctrl+Z (background)
<wendall911> jcater: thank you...i've tried Ctrl+C and Ctrl+Z ... i'll try the other one
<wendall911> problem is, psad hung for some reason and sshd is the last in the list, so I can't get a cl or ssh to the box, it's a production fw
<wendall911> grrr
<reinhard> night all
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<wendall911> jcater: no such luck, but ty, I'll keep looking for kernel commands...running 2.4.24 Vanilla sources
<jcater> you tried booting directing into a shell and then fixing the init.d script?
<jcater> Linux init=/bin/sh
<wendall911> jcater: no, I haven't rebooted it yet, I only did so because I couldn't kill the service in question, but will do that this evening when traffic is low
<wendall911> jcater: ty
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<ajmitch> hi bddeb
<ajmitch> :)
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<bddebppc> Heya ajmitch!
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<wendall911> jcarter: how can I actually edit anything on the harddisk from a /bin/sh cl?
<wendall911> harddisk appears to be mounted read only'
<jcater> you can remount under /mnt I think
<jcater> read-write
<wendall911> jcarter ok, i did a umount and nothing happens
<jcater> ?
<wendall911> it doesn't appear that I have any privs and even if i su -
<wendall911> if i do mount, it reports the drive as rw
<wendall911> I cannot edit any files on the hard disk
<jcater> http://panuganty.tripod.com/debiantips/boot.htm
<jcater> scroll half way down
<jcater> to "I forgot the root password"
<wendall911> k, ty
<wendall911> I see
<jcater> (even though you didn't, it still holds the same)
<jcater> :)
<wendall911> jcater: ahhh, I see
<wendall911> ty
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<wendall911> jcater: ok, that did the trick, thanks again. I've done the process before, but that was quite a while back and I had forgotten how
<jcater> no problemo
<wendall911> jcater: any recommendations for something to use in place of psad on a fw box?
<jcater> psad?
<wendall911> I've used snort before, but don't like it much
<wendall911> it is a snort replacement
<jcater> ah, no
<wendall911> not as robust....ok, cool thanks again
<wendall911> I know how to do this from a boot cd, but didn't want to go that route
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<wendall911> anybody still on?
<jamest> yip
<bddeb_away> Nope
<ajmitch_> perhaps
<bddeb_away> heh
<wendall911> hey guys, just wondered what you considered the most stable logger for a fw box?
<jamest> logger?
<wendall911> was for some stupid reason using metalog for a system logger
<wendall911> jamest: system logger
<jamest> not like an IDS
<jamest> just a syslog type thing?
<jamest> in that case I use bsd's default syslog :)
<wendall911> jamest: yeah, that's what i'm going to...metalog died on me and took all services out one at a time
<jamest> not had too much trouble w/ bsd syslog
<jamest> except for the fact that they puts our building A/C on a timer
<jamest> and during the summer they baked all my servers by shutting off the A/C all night then "forgeting" they were doing it
<jamest> my firewall box took a beating, would overheat and shutdown 
<jamest> logs files were sometimes a causulty of that
<wendall911> jamest: I have a dual 533 celeron box that acts as a router, the logger had one proc at 99% for over a week, just ssh'ed into it today because it was acting strange
<jamest> oh really
<wendall911> stopped my IDS service, which couldn't log anything and then, I couldn't even log in until I uninstalled the logger 
<jamest> just ignore that pr0nServah2000 process
<jamest> i'm sure it's a std process
<bddeb_away> heh
<wendall911> yeah, after googling around a bit I saw alot of other people having the same problem with that logger
<jamest> :)
<wendall911> hehe
<wendall911> can't believe it didn't overheat
<wendall911> those procs run kinda hot, which is why I use it as a fw
<wendall911> ok, syslog installed
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<bddeb_dinner> Heya derek. :-)
Nick change: bddeb_dinner -> bddebian
<derek> hi
<derek> where did the topic for this channel go
Action: derek notes that freenode seems a little "bent" as of late
<bddebian> There is no discussion, what do you need a topic for?? :-)
<derek> true dat
<bddebian> Well fix that man.  You wwere going to tell me about WMS capabiilities and my new business... :-)
<ajmitch_> hello derek
<derek> hi ajmitch
<derek> er ajmitch_ even
<ajmitch_> I've got some complaints for you, about dcl :)
<derek> bddebian: currently i work with a company that has a complete WMS
<derek> we are looking to move it GNUe
<ajmitch_> like "it doesn't work" - specifically mapping stuff in attributes
<derek> perhaps rather than start a company you should work for us :)
<derek> it works
<derek> you are experience one of two problems
<derek> 1. I/O error (i/o == inept operator)
<bddebian> derek: Mind if I live in Philly?? :-)
<derek> 2. the interface between the chair and the keyboard is broken
<ajmitch_> derek: not on my box - firefox tells me javascript permission denied to HTMLElement stuff
<derek> firefox is a broken piece of doggie foo
<bddebian> derek: That is a rampant problem in everything!!! ;-)
#gnuenterprise: mode change '+o jcater' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
<ajmitch_> derek: nice of you to say so - there needs to be a way to actually use dcl still
<derek> i need more concrete example
<derek> i.e. what version
<derek> last you were talking about the version on ash (iirc)
<bddebian> derek: Do you mind if I /query you?
<derek> or are you trying to package a newer version?
<derek> no
<ajmitch_> derek: no, I'm trying to use the latest tarball, on a server here
<derek> ajmitch_ i havent had lots of luck with newer versions
<ajmitch_> I was wanting to look at ash for examples of priorities/severities/other stuff
<ajmitch_> derek: I don't get the js errors with moz 1.6
<derek> frankly they are way more buggy than previous releases :(
<bddebian> derek: Was that no don't, or no I don't mind?? :-)
<ajmitch_> derek: I thought you helped out with dcl..
Topic changed on #gnuenterprise by jcater!~jcater@cpe-066-061-071-147.midsouth.rr.com: Welcome to GNU Enterprise. svn anonymous access now available; svn co svn://svn.gnuenterprise.org/var/svn/gnue/trunk gnue
<derek> i couldnt get get 0.9.4 (iirc) drop down menus to work on any debian browser, but they worked for firebird on OS X (go figure)
<derek> bddebian: i dont mind
<derek> ajmitch_: i was quite a bit
<ajmitch_> I couldn't get dropdown menus working on firebird 0.7
#gnuenterprise: mode change '-o jcater' by jcater!~jcater@cpe-066-061-071-147.midsouth.rr.com
<derek> but after 0.9.1 or so i got busy
<derek> and havent even had time to upgrade my own installations
<ajmitch_> and if I switch to a different template, I get errors & have to remove the admin prefs from the database manually
<ajmitch_> which is a real PITA
<derek> thats why i was begging jbailey for packages
<derek> so i coudl get some testing done
<derek> and make patches
Action: derek has to go beat my children
<ajmitch_> right
<derek> brb
<bddebian> begging jbailey?  That's a scary proposition.. :-0
<ajmitch_> so I guess I have to hunt down & beat mdean
Action: jcater pulls up a chair and grabs some popcorn
<ajmitch_> what are you using for gnue bugtracking now?
<ajmitch_> scraps of paper on the desk?
<derek> nothing
<derek> no one was using dcl really :(
<ajmitch_> a pity
<ajmitch_> so gnue is officially bug free?
Action: derek wants to know who screwed with postgres on ash
<ajmitch_> it probably got upgraded or something :)
<derek> dneighbo@ash:~$ ps ax |grep postgres
<derek> 27541 pts/1    S      0:00 grep postgres
<derek> dneighbo@ash:~$ 
<derek> hmm thats problematic
<ajmitch_> yes, I saw that
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> how strange
<jcater> ash is still woody
<derek> fsck this is really bad
<derek> ash:/home/dneighbo# /etc/init.d/postgresql start
<derek> -su: /etc/postgresql/postmaster.init: No such file or directory
<derek> Starting PostgreSQL postmaster.
<derek> pg_ctl: Another postmaster may be running.  Trying to start postmaster anyway.
<derek> pg_ctl: cannot start postmaster
<derek> Examine the log output.
<jcater> ajmitch_: basically, dcl became our spam honeypot
<derek> ash:/home/dneighbo# 
<derek> yeah its bad (the amount of spam)
<ajmitch_> jcater: nasty
<derek> i cleaend it out one time
<derek> and then just couldnt keep up :(
Action: derek needs to get spam solution there for it
<ajmitch_> looks like /var/run/postgresql is clean
<derek> dcl is back up
<ajmitch_> so, mantis or RT? :)
Action: derek wonders if ajmitch_ has ever seen homer simpson choke bart
<derek> why you little......
<derek> dcl is back
<ajmitch_> :)
<ajmitch_> yeah
<jcater> derek: ajmitch can't afford food, much less a tv
<jcater> :)
<ajmitch_> now what's the guest login?
<derek> i suspect when the UPS on that machine didnt cover the weekend outage a while back
<ajmitch_> nevermind..
<derek> that the system got restarted
<derek> but no one cleaned up the pid for postgres
<derek> and restarted it
<ajmitch_> that's a bad thing
<derek> jcater: im with you ... at first i was like how the hell did postgres get upgraded we are on woody for gods sake
<derek> and nothing in woody gets updated :)
<bddebian> heh
<ajmitch_> alright, so now everyone can submit bugs again! woohoo!
Action: jcater is somewhat impatiently waiting for sarge
<jcater> so much for december
<jcater> seems they're now saying summer
<derek> you are a bad man
<derek> i have learned to just deal with unstable
<derek> and "update" strategically
<jcater> unstable on servers makes me nervous
<jcater> though I admit I only run one woody server now
<derek> yes agree
<jcater> I mistakenly thought last month that sarge was stabilizing
<jcater> boy, was I a dumbass
<derek> roflmao
<derek> at least you can admit it
<jcater> had to pull in unstable packages
<jcater> to get it running again
<jcater> that's what was sad
<jcater> had to move to unstable to get a semistable system
<jcater> :)
<derek> i actually find unstable to be quite stable
<ajmitch_> yes, it is
<derek> in the sense that most stuff that is broked is broked more because its cutting edge than because it is poorly packaged
<jcater> yes, I agree
Action: ajmitch_ trolls through the list of bugs to see what he can push upstream
<jcater> it bites me in the ass about once every 3-5 months
<jcater> but upgrades run flawlessly other than that
<derek> yeah when big stuff upgrades i get NERVOUS
<derek> like gnome, python, postgres etc
<ajmitch_> postgres upgrades scare me
<derek> but generally if i know they are upgraded i "avoid" updates for a while
<derek> ajmitch pg_dumpall is your friend
<ajmitch_> it still scares me
<ajmitch_> has anyone seen this occur?
<ajmitch_> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=224206
<ajmitch_> I haven't since designer seems completely broken on my box with running forms
<jcater> I imagine that's fixed in svn
<ajmitch_> and running a form normally seems to work fine
<bddebian> derek: Are you ignoring me?? :-)
<jcater> ajmitch_: what's it saying?
<ajmitch_> can I whinge about running stuff in designer & paste it here?
<ajmitch_> jcater: malformed xml, gimme a min to find it
<derek> bddebian: yes just not on purpose
<bddebian> :-)
<derek> i think you said something then i went to beat the kids
<jcater> derek: you guys gonna do a baby registry online?
<derek> and forgot as "your tab wasnt a pretty color"
Action: ajmitch_ waits for designer to load..
<bddebian> My tab wasn't a preetty color?? :-)
<ajmitch_> this is painfully slow
<jcater> derek: I changed your tab to a pretty color
<jcater> so you have no excuse
<ajmitch_> jcater: want the whole traceback, or the last 5 lines?
<jcater> 5 lines pls
<ajmitch_> I've just verified that it occurs on 2 computers
<ajmitch_> DB000:   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/_xmlplus/sax/expatreader.py", line 220, in feed
<ajmitch_> DB000:     self._err_handler.fatalError(exc)
<ajmitch_> DB000:   File "/usr/lib/python2.3/site-packages/_xmlplus/sax/handler.py", line 38, in fatalError
<ajmitch_> DB000:     raise exception
<ajmitch_> DB000: xml.sax._exceptions.SAXParseException: <unknown>:1:1: not well-formed (invalid token)
<ajmitch_> this was running helloworld2.gfd in the forms samples
<ajmitch_> via designer
<jcater> wtf?
<jcater> via designer?
<jcater> what do you mean via designer?
<ajmitch_> tools-> run form
<jcater> that works?
<jcater> I didn't know anyone ever fixed that
<ajmitch_> hell no
<ajmitch_> that's why I'm complaining
<jcater> ah
<derek> rofl
<derek> i never try it anymore ( i gave up many moons ago)
<derek> and EVERY time i demo someone tries it
<jcater> I don't think that's worked since, oh, 0.1 maybe
<derek> and then asks me about it
Action: jcater needs to disable the option
<ajmitch_> of course they'd try it :)
<derek> and i kind of mutter things
<jcater> damn users
<derek> and say "dont touch that button fred"
<derek> we made gnue-forms for a reason :)
<ajmitch_> surely it'd be trivial to fix, right? :)
<jcater> um, nah
<holycow> heh
Action: jcater runs off to look at it to make ajmitch happy
<jcater> I don't think I like you being debian maintainer
<derek> jcater: i'm sticking with the "real programmers don't use inline debuggers"
<jcater> you're actually pushing us to fix bugs
<jcater> dammit
<derek> line that you and jamest keep giving me
<holycow> ehehe
<holycow> well just wait
<jcater> derek: I think the line jamest and I give you is
<jcater> "Please stay away from our software"
<holycow> i'm a complete newb, i'll find bugs you never thought of!
<bddebian> hehe
<ajmitch_> holycow: hah, you've got strong competition with derek there
<jcater> holycow: but that's what derek is for
<jcater> he can *look* at it
<jcater> and bugs surface that no one's ever seen before
<holycow> derek, your now 1 rung up on the ladder :)
<holycow> hahaha jc :)
<holycow> jedi master is he now?
Action: jcater isn't joking
<holycow> how quickly is gnue maturing just out of curiosity, i'm v v new here
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<holycow> ehehe
<holycow> hows that for killing a conversation?
<holycow> *sigh*
<jcater> um, well
<jcater> that's a tricky question
<jcater> I use it for my own two small businesses
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<jcater> to run day-to-day operations
<holycow> *nod* for what kinds of stuff?
<jcater> and am migrating it, albeit slowly, at my main office
<holycow> yeah?
<holycow> i run lotus notes/domino at work
<jcater> a bookstore and a furniture/home decor market
<jcater> point of sale
<holycow> obviously getting a good email replacement is a cinch
<holycow> gnue would replace the dev environment there entirely
<jcater> but custom tables w/custom gnue-forms + gnue-pos
<holycow> ah v cool :)
<jcater> so, trick question
<holycow> *nod* i understand, as a .5 release you really haveto target your dev
<holycow> neat
<jcater> as for me, it's maturing enough that I don't have to deal w/it on a day to day basis
<holycow> so it is usable, its not enterprise level yet then?
<jcater> but that's me
<jcater> and I'm a core developer
<jcater> so of course it does what I need it to do :)
<holycow> ah cool
<jcater> and I don't run forms from w/in designer
<holycow> cool, i'm going to play around with it and see what i can get it to do
<holycow> what you guys are doing is awesome
<holycow> the world trully needs a free, cross platform form based dev environment
<holycow> you even picked python for the scripting stuff, doesnt get better than that
<ajmitch_> heh
<holycow> i wish i had oodles of money to pour into the project
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> I do too
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<ajmitch_> time for me to go off home, hurl abuse at ajmitch, not me ;)
<holycow> its time for james to upgrade kopete i think
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<jcater> ajmitch: damn you!
<holycow> or just fukin give it up
<holycow> hehe :)
<holycow> jc, nice to meet ya, keep up the great work
<holycow> how long has gnue been around for? who started the project and why?
<jcater> http://www.gnu.org/software/gnue/faq.html#GNUe-FAQ-1.14
<jcater> I came on in 2000
<holycow> ehehe :)
<holycow> danke *read* *read*
<jcater> though I note I'm not on the history list
Action: jcater thwaps, um, someone
<holycow> lol
<bddebian> You can thwap me, I'm used to it
<holycow> neat
<holycow> okay at this rate gnue is schedule for 1.0 release in 2008
<holycow> :D
<holycow> we need money
<holycow> *hmmmmm*
<jcater> 2008?
<holycow> by 'we' i mean you
<holycow> :)
<jcater> bit optomistic, aren't you?
<holycow> hahaha :)
<jcater> but in many ways, our 0.4 is like some project's 1.4
<jcater> we really expect perfect software to justify a 1.0
<jcater> perhaps that is a flaw of ours
<jcater> or not
<holycow> yes so far it seems that way, albeit i have no db to make a connection so not able to test much yet
<holycow> *nod* i'm not qualified to judge dev processes
<holycow> i was mostly kiddin
<holycow> as im sittin here thinkin more about this, this puppy competes directly whit a whole bunch of stuff
<holycow> see on the one hand it kills access and nonsense like that
<bddebian> 2008??   Sounds like L4/Hurd
<holycow> it competes on a more basic level with some ibm stuff
<holycow> but it this really could kill some of the impetus behind mozilla
<holycow> xul is of course a fronted end dealy, but its meant to be flexible to do what gnue does
<holycow> hurd? hehehe
<holycow> oh yeah, when hell freezes over maybe? :D
<holycow> hey since a dev is here, quick q: i havent been able to gleem info from the website about web based front ends
<holycow> according to faq ... the app server is an 'engine' that provides a single api for all the logic?
<jcater> we haven't put a lot of effort into web based yet
<holycow> if one is to build a web based frontend, how does a web form interact with the gne appserver?
<jcater> but it's on the drawing board
<jcater> appserver and web are independent
<holycow> is it specced in any way?
<jcater> we have pluggable drivers for gnue forms
<jcater> Windows, GTK2, QT, Curses, etc
<holycow> meaning?
<jcater> we are working on (not a priority though)
<jcater> an HTML one
<jcater> in which gnue-forms goes into a daemon mode
<holycow> ah okay so it can run multiplatform *nod* i noticed that
<jcater> and serves forms pages
<holycow> aha!
<jcater> not all the details have been worked out
<holycow> wow now your talking some amazing stuff
<holycow> *nod*
<jcater> but that is the official goal
<holycow> okay the reason i ask is because i can do that in domino
<jcater> now, (semi)unofficially
<holycow> and i would LOVE to be able to do that in open source
<jcater> jan wrote a javascript-based forms package
<holycow> write once, publish anywhere
<jcater> that communicates directly with apsperver
<jcater> I haven't used it
<jcater> and don't know the status
<holycow> really?
<holycow> wow
<holycow> *hmmm*
<jcater> but it required you to use appserver as a backenbd
<jcater> not direct to database
<jcater> (I run all my forms as the latter)
<holycow> well theoretically...one could code up mozilla to talk to the app server then?
<jcater> there's an option in forms, iirc, to create this web form
<jcater> yes
<derek> yes other than the fact that it would be SIGNIFICANT work with imho minimal benefit
<holycow> *nod* i heard, i'm not really expecting it at all to be honest, just curious
<derek> mozilla xul has little or NO realization of data other than RSS/RDF
<holycow> if its on the drawing table, thats just fantastic
<derek> and have you ever tried to author XPCOM stuff?
<holycow> oh really?
<jcater> holycow: we take multiplatform seriously
<derek> other than fact its C++
<jcater> and I don't mean just windows vs linux
<derek> its not exactly "fun" stuff
<holycow> no i just tried to create a few xul gui's nothing significant
<jcater> I mean, phone voice, html, etc
<holycow> derek *nod*
<holycow> well c isn't fun either :)
<holycow> hehe *nudge*
<holycow> :)
<holycow> jca, no shit?
<holycow> wow
<jcater> yes, we are partners/friends w/the bayonne developers
<holycow> my hats off to you guys, thats v v ambitious
<derek> as much as he eats... i hope he shits
<jcater> and eventually we want to tie gnue into bayonne
<jcater> and vice-versa
<jcater> once again, we have big ambitions
<jcater> so by definition
<jcater> we move "slowly"
<jcater> (at least in the public eye)
<holycow> sweet
<holycow> slow is fine
<derek> well my favorite quote on this is
<holycow> speed usually ends up in disaster
<derek> we have seen over a hundred projects "start" because we are too "slow"
<holycow> i'm new to the whole linux deal too btw
<derek> and years later we are only ones still committing code to cvs
<holycow> i used to think its important that linux win over desktop but ...
<holycow> now i see that it doesnt matter
<jcater> holycow: if you stick around for a while, you'll notice we really work in spurts
<jcater> we'll have one helluva productive 2-3 month period
Action: derek wonders if they make FSF Viagra
<holycow> linux exists to fill a real need, speed usually ends up missing the real need, and wedging something in where it doesnt belong
<jcater> then slow down because of projects/life/etc
<derek> might help with that spurts thing ;)
<bddebian> derek: ;-P
<jcater> then hit another spurt
Action: jcater thwaps derek
<jcater> and ajmitch, just for the hell of it
<bddebian> Heh
<jcater> derek: you didn't answer my question?
<holycow> jcater heh
<jcater> you guys gonna do a baby registry online?
<holycow> not unlike my situation
<holycow> of course, you create the stuff for free
<jcater> like target.com, amazon.com or something?
<holycow> heh i wouldnt expect even this much frankly
<holycow> i wish i could contribute like fulltime staff
<derek> um nope...
<derek> bad news
<derek> i think we lost the baby over the weekend :(
<jcater> ouch
<jcater> sorry to hear that
<derek> we will know for sure tomorrow
<derek> but we are 99.9% sure
<bddebian> derek: I'm very sorry to hear that.. :-9
<derek> it is kind of upsetting, but not super tragic as
<holycow> condolences if i'm hearing what i'm reading?
<derek> 1. we have 3 healthy and happy kids already
<jcater> give laurie my condolences, if so
<derek> 2. we were less than a month pregnant and had not named the baby or anything
<holycow> eye :/
<derek> while we are very sad, it could have been much worse
<jcater> still, must be hard, for her especially
<derek> yes for her, it is more fear that she some how did something to cause it
<derek> which is of course ludicrous
Action: derek goes to try to get wireless card working
<derek> i want to go sit in living room
<jcater> I have to run
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<holycow> oh hey derek, found your contribution in the faq
<holycow> heh
<holycow> obviously mozilla is a question thats going to be popping up ad nauseum
someon (~some1@h24-81-151-173.vf.shawcable.net) joined #gnuenterprise.
<derek> am i here?
<bddebian> Nope
Action: ajmitch returns
<bddebian> :-)
<bddebian> three cheers for ajmitch.. :-)
<derek> did you see the FAQ on mozilla?
<ajmitch> derek: sorry to hear about the baby :(
<holycow> me? yep yep :)
<holycow> very clear indeed
<derek> ajmitch: i killed all "spam tickets" for my dcl account 
<derek> woot
Action: derek appreciates all the condolences
<holycow> a link to that should be in the topic as i'm sure newbs will be asking perpetually like i have
Action: ajmitch has no dcl account to kill spam in ;)
<derek> i can fix that
<ajmitch> I collect enough spam in other accounts
<derek> does anyone know if our website is in svn
<derek> or still only on gnu cvs?
<ajmitch> I don't see it in the main svn checkout
<ajmitch> looks to be gnu cvs only
<derek> otay
<derek> sigh i suppose i need to fix my cvs access on savannah some day
<derek> ajmitch: squashing fluff like mad in dcl
<ajmitch> ok
<derek> ajmitch:  we need to get you an account and assign you some yummy stuff
<derek> actually you should have an account to file upstream bugs
<bddebian> I should havee an account to create bugs for you.. ;-P
<derek> you can do that w/o an account
<derek> productname-support@gnuenterprise.org
<derek> will allow bug submission
<derek> and the guest acccount will allow review
<someon> I think bddebian wants to introduce bugs for you...
<bddebian> I meant creete actual bugs, not bug reeports.. :-)
Action: bddebian rips out his keyboard...
<someon> something along the lines of if isset(variable) then crash(bug)
<bddebian> Heh
<someon> better to be ripping out your keyboard than your hair
<bddebian> I pulled that all out long ago.. :-)
<derek> ajmitch: i have it down from 20 pages of unassigned bug reports to 12 or so
<ajmitch> great :)
--- Wed Feb 18 2004