<someon> I just wish someone could crack the Visio file format so that tools like Dia and Kivio could open / save them
<bddebian> I thought it had a name like invisio or some shit.  It might be Kivio??
<someon> No software that I could search on called invisio
<someon> There's a program called inviso, but it's an autoCAD viewer for WinXX
<alandd> well, I must go.
<bddebian> Gnight
<alandd> I have downloaded KDE 3.2 and I don't think I want to be running it while I install it!
<alandd> Gnight
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<someon> Fooey.  Doesn't he know about multiple pty's?
<someon> That and IRC by Telnet....
<bddebian> Heh
<someon> dbbebian:  What are you planning for GNUe?
<bddebian> To rule thee world!!!
<someon> OK, good, just double checking
<bddebian> :-0
<bddebian> Actually if I had more eexperiieence/skiills, I would love to start a Free Software based business for small/medium sized companies to replace M$ software with Free software.  At leeast on the server side.
<bddebian> ... and a better keyboard.. :-)
<someon> Big problem programs for you with that plan:  Exchange.  Nothing really plays nice in the Free ($) world.  In the Free (Libre) area, there are serveral products, but I don't have experience with them.
<someon> MS Project.  Special DB File Format.  I have heard that it's based on the JET DB Engine...
<someon> Visio.  Standard program for almost all types of diagrams.  Network providers use it to supply diagrams of new network layouts
<someon> Word/Excel/PowerPoint can all be worked around.
<someon> The better keyboard...  hmm...  not sure what to suggest there.
<someon> Consultation and support...  that's where the big bucks are.
<someon> Closed Source ERP we use charges 150 / user in annual maintenance.
<someon> That's Base Level support - Next Business Day, problems reported by EMail only.  No Phone support
<bddebian> Ii was thiinkinig Exchange4Linux or Bynari to replace eexchange.  Desktop apps, I don't care about that much.  Let thteem run winiblowoss for now
<someon> Haven't investigated Exchange4Linux...  Will go look
<bddebian> I'm focuseed more on ERP WMS MRP and server siidee stuff.  Filee sharing, Samba obviously, hell I would usee sendmail on the mail sidee if they don't have calendariing requirementts.
<bddebian> Hylafax fax servers.  Though  I don't like the way Winblows clients aree handled in Hylafax.. :-(
<someon> Exchange4Linux and Bynari are both Free (Libre) but not Free ($)
<someon> Even if they don't use Calendaring on their existing system, you should look at those types of solutions, as it will show that by employing OSS, the user can get BETTER than the proprietary.
<someon> WMS and MRP are acronyms I don't know...  But I'm not in the industry, so my milage may vary
<bddebian> WMS == Warehouse Management System.  MRP == Materials Requirements Planning (it is more raw materials tracking, materiial eexplossiions, that kind of thing
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<alandd> KDE 3.2 goodness!  Nice look and feel so far!
<someon> bddebian: so a lot of JIT order controls
<holycow> alandd, lots of little polish
<bddebian> someon: More or  less.  Unfortunateely it's all a pipedream at thiss point beecause I am a relativee n00b to GNU/Linux and Free Software.. :-(
<holycow> i'm enjoying it as well
<alandd> menus are rearanged a bit.  Have to get used to it.
<alandd> Looking through the apps now.  Very nice.
<bddebian> Well, gotta fly tomorrow.  Gniight gents.
<someon> Night bd
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<alandd> Umbrello looks sort-of basic and very specific to UML diagrams.  But, it has a nice clean interface.  I'll have to try it for a while.
<alandd> Kivio is impressive!  Very Visio-like with templates and so on.
<someon> I found that KDE never really behaved well on this box...  Problems with the Frame Buffer driver that was used...
<someon> Yup, and you can buy Kivio-mp for OSX or for WinXX
<someon> It uses the same file format on all IIRC
<alandd> It pulls in Dia shapes and others as well!  Maybe this one is the ticket.
<alandd> compressed or raw xml
<someon> Not sure.  Neither I think.
<someon> It's all written by "the Kompany" so the file format was known to them when they wrote for WinXX and OSX
<alandd> no, I mean that is what it saves as!  you get to choose.
<alandd> gotta send some thank you notes!
<someon> For being turned on to KDE3.2?
<someon> Cool.  compressed XML and raw XML are both open file formats :)
<someon> I really don't like closed file formats.
<alandd> ditto.
<alandd> thank you notes to the KDE developers!
<alandd> money, if I can spring some!
<someon> Send them a free copy of GNUe :P
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<alandd> Well, I really must go to sleep now.  Thanks for the company!
<someon> later
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<siesel> hi
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<alandd> chillywilly: Hey.
<chillywilly> hi
<alandd> To repeat my question from last night: Should I use the 0.5.2 release or CVS?
<alandd> I'm about to embark on my first real GNUe project, a small affair but still
<alandd> are there things in CVS that make any bugs livable?  or should I stick with the official release?
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<siesel> alandd: it depends on the programs you want to use.
<alandd> siesel: ok.
<alandd> target application is a simple database front end.
<alandd> accepts csv flat file from another program.  Tracks some information for each record
<alandd> and produces basic reports like "who did x since day1?"
<alandd> so I envision gnue-forms and maybe reports.
<alandd> and I want to use the forms designer
<alandd> the application's local database may remain a flat file since it is not ever expected to be larger than a couple of hundered records.
<alandd> though I am still debating that point.
<alandd> the app will be stand-alone on the computer and needs to run on windows too.
<alandd> I don't know what database tech is appropriate for such a local, small deployment on both Linux and windows.
<alandd> yet
<siesel> hmmm, I think you can then use both cvs or 0.5.2 
<siesel> since forms and reports haven't changed much
<siesel> the basis for both is gnue-common, which has undergone a big change. But there will be release in the next week, so it should already be quite stable.
<alandd> That's exactly the info I was hunting for.  thanks.
<alandd> gnu.org is refusing my connection when I click anything on the main gnue page.
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<siesel> hmmm, seems like the router for gnue.org and gnuenterprise.org is down again :(
<siesel> PING gnuenterprise.org (209.234.155.8): 56 data bytes
<siesel> --- gnuenterprise.org ping statistics ---
<siesel> 50 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss
<siesel> oops, working again :)
<alandd> the download page comes up now
<alandd> I'm gonna grab a snapshot, I think.
<siesel> :)
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<bddebian> Hi Jeff!
<jbailey> Heya Barry!
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<jbailey> ajmitch: Ping!
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<ajmitch> pong
<bddebian> dong
<jbailey> ajmitch: You have Debian stuff for me? =)
<ajmitch> jbailey: ah, yeah... 
Action: ajmitch was going to remember to send that email ;)
<jbailey> ajmitch: Or better yet.  Finish your damned T&S. =)
<ajmitch> lol
<ajmitch> and how would that help me? :)
<jbailey> You wouldn't have to do things through me. =)
<ajmitch> that assumes that they approve me as DD ;)
<jcater> they approved jbailey
Action: jcater ducks
<bddebian> Yes, that is pretty bad.. :-)
Action: jbailey looks at mapquest to figure out how far to drop to thwap jcater in person.
<bddebian> Heh
<jcater> well, I'm in phoenix, arizona
<jcater> err, in a small town outside of it
<ajmitch> hehe
<jbailey> Hmm.
<jbailey> It's got to be warmer than here.
<jbailey> It snowed again today.
<ajmitch> snow is fun :)
<jcater> jbailey: that's actually where derek lives
<jcater> I live in mississippi
<jcater> it was a blistery 65 here today
<ajmitch> but you can thwap derek while you're there
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<jcater> actually, this was first nice weekend in a while
<jcater> we had 3" or so of snow last weekend
<jcater> and 65 degree weather this weekend
<jbailey> 3 feet of snow?
<jbailey> Youch.
<jbailey> That's like a meter.
<jcater> silly canadian
<ajmitch> 3", not 3' :P
<jcater> that's inches
<ajmitch> even I know the difference
<ajmitch> and i'm just a silly kiwi :)
<jcater> for here though, 3" is probably like 3' there
<jcater> all the schools shut down
<jcater> churches close up
<jbailey> Churches?
<jbailey> Isn't it James that lives in Kansas?
<jbailey> Snow there could really mean that hell had frozen over. =)
<bddebian> yuck yuck
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<alandd> I grabbed yesterday's gnue snapshot but I know I don't need all of this stuff for what I want to accomplish.
<alandd> If I pare some of it out, I assume I won't be breaking things.
<alandd> like, deleting appserver is not going to hurt forms.
<derek> no
<derek> it wont
<derek> but appserver needs some loving (ie its ready for a release and needs some testing) :)
<alandd> thanks
<alandd> I question a couple of the components:
<derek> do they answer:?
<derek> your questions that is ;)
<alandd> what is the difference between designer, integrator and navigator?
Action: alandd was distracted by the printer...
<ajmitch> designer designs.. (forms|reports|etc), integrator integrates (other data sources), navigator navigates (forms|reports|etc)
<ajmitch> designer being the tool used to put together forms
<alandd> navigator is an end user tool?
Action: ajmitch knows very little about integrator
<ajmitch> yeah, afaik it is :)
<ajmitch> derek can explain :)
<alandd> docbook is a new one to me as is phpforms, which I won't need anyway since I am not doing php stuff.
<alandd> what is packages?
<alandd> a package builder?
<alandd> if so, I think I'll keep that one.
<ajmitch> no, packages are the packages that are meant to be worked on, I assume
<derek> alandd: 
<alandd> pos is new but I know what that is and won't be needing it.
<derek> navigator is a tool to "bundle it all togehter" for the end user
<derek> that is it allows you build a menu system so to speak for all your forms, reports, etc
<alandd> hum, a keeper then.
<derek> in an ERP app this is very important as you have literally thousands of forms/reports
<derek> integrator is for say taking data from your quickbooks finance system and dumping them into your GNUe budgeting system
<derek> or such
<derek> i.e. moving data from system to another
<derek> on a regular basis (or one time for conversions and such)
<derek> as for docbook (that is just documentation)
<derek> it is not a "package"
<derek> pos (is point of sale)
<derek> it really probably belongs in gnue-sb tree or some other GNU Enterprise tree
<derek> separate from the tools 
Action: alandd realizes this is probably answered on the web site somewhere and is grateful to the patient gnue'ers.
<derek> phpforms is kind of same thing
<derek> unless it is merged more cleanly
<derek> technically phpforms is forms for the web browser
<derek> in my opinion this should not be a separate package that only uses appserver
<derek> but instead be a ui "driver" and be a subdirectory of the forms directory
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<derek> but that is neither here nor there
<derek> it is what it is
<alandd> thanks to you both.
<alandd> my input data will be a command delimited flat file from another application.  250 or so records, maximum.
<alandd> occasionally I will have to sync my current "copy" of those records with an new flat file from the original app.
<PeterD> Hi
<alandd> remove orphaned local records that are no longer in the source app and add new ones locally that are new in the source.
<PeterD> Is anybody used prereleased appserver and common
<alandd> that sort of thing.
<alandd> I want to keep the local database simple so I was thinking of maintaining it as a flat file since it is not too large.
<alandd> is that a reasonable thing to do in this situation and with python?
<alandd> do so would also eliminate database engine dependence when crossing to a windows platform with the application.
--- Sun Feb 22 2004