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<thierry> morning gnuers
<bddebian> Good morning
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<SachaS> hi everyone
<SachaS> hi reinhard, johannes
<reinhard> hi SachaS
<SachaS> i am back in liechtenstein :)
<reinhard> oh cool
<SachaS> so we have to go for a hot chocolate or beer ;) somewhen soon
<reinhard> yes
<SachaS> maybe in 3-4 weeks ...
<reinhard> ok
<SachaS> ok
<reinhard> i've got a quite full calender this week anyway
<SachaS> bye then i should have settled
<SachaS> sounds good ;)
<SachaS> did you go to brussel?
<SachaS> was it good?
<reinhard> yes and yes :)
<reinhard> although i didn't meet as many people as i hoped
<SachaS> maybe i will be around next year
<SachaS> whats on your agenda anyway? u have to let me know about local activites ;) have no idea whats going on
<SachaS> and i think the liechtenstein linux user group is not very active
<reinhard> the LUGV is very active
<reinhard> and we also have members from LI and CH
<SachaS> what is its url? www.lugv.org ?
<reinhard> www.lugv.at
<SachaS> thats vorarlbert
<SachaS> thats vorarlberg
<SachaS> ok
<reinhard> yes
<SachaS> ok
<SachaS> oh good to know
<SachaS> reinhard, do you have monthly presentations?
<reinhard> not monthly
<reinhard> but from time to time
<reinhard> and we have the linuxday
<reinhard> every year in november
<reinhard> you might want to subscribe to the mailing list
<reinhard> should be on the web page somewhere
<SachaS> ok. i once attended the linuxday
<SachaS> ok. will let you working :)
<reinhard> :)
<mdupont> hi reinhard
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<SachaS> gtg
<SachaS> bye
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<wendall911> reinhard: Install went well on Common, Appserver and Forms...I haven't tested Forms from a remote yet
<reinhard> wendall911: great
<wendall911> reinhard: Haven't set it up in quite a while, so was a little fuzzy, but only took like 30 minutes to get it all going
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<chillywilly> anyone here use gnu mailman?
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> or recommend some other mailing list software
<chillywilly> ezmlm any good ;)?
<jcater> I use majordomo2
<jcater> as does jamest
<jcater> it's been pretty hands-off
<jcater> I have scripts that auto-subscribe my sales team from email addresses in my database
<jcater> I don't think I've admined the list in 2-3 yrs
<jcater> s/admin/manually admin/
<chillywilly> ah, cron
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> hmmm
<jcater> but I didn't really look around
<jcater> I took jamest's recommendation and ran with it
<chillywilly> ok
<dsmith> chillywilly: I've used it.
<dsmith> I like it a better than majordomo.
<chillywilly> you set it up?
<dsmith> mailman? Yes.
<chillywilly> you're talking about mailman?
<dsmith> Apt-get install mailman. And then
<chillywilly> you like mailman better
<chillywilly> ?
<dsmith> Yes.
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> go on...you were saying ;)
<dsmith> You just need to edit your aliases for you mailer so mailman gets them.
<dsmith> It's all in the docs.
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> was trying to find some decent docs though
<chillywilly> maybe I missed them
<dsmith> The only real change I made was in the admin interface to defualt to delete a bogus post.
<dsmith> We got like 60 spams a day and it was tough to click all the checkboxes to delete them.
<chillywilly> jbailey was comlaining about that the other day
<dsmith> That server isn't running anymore though. (cleveland.lug.net)
<chillywilly> complaining
<dsmith> It's al in Python so it's easy to hack.
<dsmith> I was using it with postfix.
<dsmith> It worked well enough.
<dsmith> I didn't try and tune anythign though, I don't know that much.
<chillywilly> ok
<jamest_> jcater: i recommend you stuff as much money as you can into an envelope and mail it to the address I'll be emailing you
<jcater> " as much money as you can"
<jcater> you do realize it'd be an empty envelope?
<jamest_> sigh, i was banking on it being at least $1.25
<wendall911> chillywilly: I use mailman
<wendall911> chillywilly: it is very good
<chillywilly> alrighty
<dsmith> I agree.
<wendall911> chillywilly: and like dsmith said, since it is written in python, it's easy to hack custom scripts for it
<jbailey> chillywilly: What was I bitching about?
<wendall911> chillywilly: and Barry, the author is very easy to work with
<chillywilly> jbailey: gnu mailman's interface ;P
<chillywilly> IIRC
<jbailey> wendall911: Barry's wonderful to work with.  The product is just crap, though.
<chillywilly> deleting spam was a pain or something
<jcater> apt-cache show vserver
<jbailey> wendall911: Unforutnetly, it's also the best out there.
<jcater> anyone have any experience w/vserver ?
<wendall911> jbailey: yeah, I just wrote a new administrative script to handle some things
<wendall911> jbailey: it wouldn't be very hard to do a gui desktop management interface
<dsmith> I've heard good things about that qmail listmanager. I can't remember the name right now though.
<jbailey> wendall911: I keep having thoughts about just redoing to whole thing with mailutils.
<chillywilly> qmailadmin
<dsmith> nope
<chillywilly> well it has a decent web interface
<dsmith> micro-list or something
<jbailey> chillywilly: Disagree.
<jbailey> chillywilly: It's confusing to users that I have to support.
<chillywilly> wtf us mailman doing
<jbailey> chillywilly: And it's alos not possible to show just a useful subset.
<chillywilly> jbailey: I think you're picky
<jbailey> chillywilly: And why shouldn't I be? =)
<chillywilly> damnit mailman grabbed the wrong domain
<wendall911> jbailey: it's so easy to do aliases now, it is almost silly to do pipe commands...plus it can be a security problem. It would be much easier to do virtual email for the listserv lists and process them that way
<jbailey> My dream mailing list server stores all it's lists and config in LDAP as an option, plugs into any decent archiver, and has command line accesibility for everything.
<jbailey> Mailman, sadly, does none of these.
<chillywilly> must have remnants of eh old config somewhere
<chillywilly> the
<wendall911> jbailey: yeah, I'd use LDAP in my previous statement. Would make for easy management
<jbailey> Oh yeah, being able to have the same list on multiple virt domains would be good.
<jbailey> wendall911: What do you mean aliases?  Like generating alias lists?
<wendall911> jbailey: no, like using email aliases...for instance, only admins have accounts on my box...for everything else, I have a virtual mail user:group that mail gets delivered to. Mailbox is just different depending on recipient address.
<wendall911> jbailey: writing the transport maps for mailing lists would be easy, you'd just deliver to the mailing list user and mail would get processed from the inbox.
<jbailey> Ah, that makes sense.
<wendall911> jbailey: I'm in the process of changing mailman to do something similar
<jbailey> wendall911: Cool.
<jbailey> wendall911: The sad part is that it shouldn't take more than a month or two full time to hack all of my wishlist up from scratch.
<jbailey> But I've found the MM code a bit hard to read at times.
<jbailey> I keep wishing I could sick something like doxygen on it.
<wendall911> jbailey: agreed, on both items
<jbailey> I should write a python wrapper around GNU Mailutils
<chillywilly> created the mailman list and it said it would notify the owner and I never got an email
<wendall911> chillywilly: did you edit all the config files?
<jbailey> Does your MTA actually work? =)
<wendall911> chillywilly: or setup mailman aliases in your MTA?
<wendall911> chillywilly: or call your grandma at 3:00AM?
<jbailey> wendall911: Her time or my time? =)
<dsmith> chillywilly: You must configure the aliases to point to mailman.
<dsmith> chillywilly: It's in the docs in /usr/share/doc/mailman/
<chillywilly> jbailey: hell yes it does
<chillywilly> ok
<chillywilly> sorry I weas booted out of my make shift office int he conference room
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> we're moving soon (yay)
<chillywilly> right now I have an exim4 + courier imap/pop + mysql setup
<chillywilly> the user/group for mailman on debian is "list" right?
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<jamest_> can someone point to an exmaple gsd of a working foreign key relationship
Action: jbailey points
<jbailey> Enjoy.
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<reinhard> jamest_: AFAIK, gnue-scripter does not (and has never) managed constraints
<reinhard> it ignores (and has always ignored) those attributes
<reinhard> ony the xml2sql xslt scripts did these
<reinhard> but johannesV is planning on including it in gnue-scripter for the next release
<reinhard> (i think)
<reinhard> johannesV: please beat me if i'm wrong here
<jamest_> jbailey: i can't....quite....make....it out at this distance
<jamest_> jbailey: can't tell if it's the smog down here or the pot smoke up there that is making it hard to read
<jamest_> reinhard: ok, thanks
<jbailey> jamest_: Well, the smoke up here may have made the pointing inaccurate.  Better to follow what the Austrian says. =)
<jamest_> jbailey: good advice, thanks
Action: dcmwai is away: I'm busy
<johannesV> reinhard: that's right, i thought of including constraints in the next version of the scripter
<jamest_> johannesV: it doesn't auto generate docs now does it?
<jamest_> from the gsd?
<johannesV> the scriper creates sql-files or html-files from gsd's
<jamest_> html docs?
<jamest_> i didn't see that option
Nick change: bddebian -> bddeb_away
<jamest_> also, any ideas on when people want to release?
<jbailey> Sometime after ajmitch finishing become a DD so that I don't have to deal with Derek. =)
<jbailey> err.  finishes becoming.
<jbailey> Stupid fingers don't do what brain says to do.
<johannesV> jamest_: well to generate a html-doc from a gsd you use --vendor HTML
<jamest_> hmmm
<jamest_> right now we have some apps that can generate openoffice docs for some stuff, all can do man pages
<jamest_> but they all do in different ways
<jamest_> i was wanting to (after release) add an option to schema to dump my table defs in a format similar to want I manually create in open office for tracking table usage
<jamest_> if that was ok w/ everyone
<johannesV> bbl
<jamest_> i also wanted to add that notification system I talked about last week
<reinhard> jamest_: gnue-schema has a plugin system that should make it easy for everyone to add a new kind of output
<jcater> yeah, I'd just add a --vendor OpenOffice myself
<jamest_> ok, cool
<reinhard> just look at gnue-common/src/schema/scripter/processors/HTML.py
<jamest_> too bad these don't all work the same way across apps
<jamest_> that might be kinda nice too be able to do something like
<jamest_> --gen-doc config --doc-style nroff
<jamest_> --gen-doc usage --doc-style nroff
<jamest_> --gen-doc usage --doc-style openoffice
<reinhard> that's something different than gnue-schema's output
<jamest_> what with all the free time everyone has I'm sure it'd be easy to implement in common :)
<reinhard> but i agree the idea would be cool
<reinhard> especially if you add the --doc-language option ;-)
<jamest_> that would be cool
<jamest_> do we translate the config options though?
<reinhard> no
<reinhard> well
<reinhard> you mean the comment for config options?
<reinhard> do config options have comments at all?
<jamest_> i also want to tweak GBaseApp a bit to make it a little quicker in a mod_python environment
<jcater> might be cleaner to do a 
<jamest_> not that performance is really an issue
<jcater> --gen-doc <mode>,<style>,<lang>
<jamest_> i thought about a GWebApp
<jcater> to keep --help cleaner
<jcater> and less confusing for end-users
<reinhard> jcater: agree
<jamest_> jcater: true dat
<jamest_> but the changes to BaseApp would be minor I think
<jamest_> and GWebApp is misleading
<jamest_> as it's really GModPythonApp
<jamest_> mod_Python + common rocks btw
<jamest_> and while I'm rambling
<jamest_> this po thing for the wife is using gnue at the core
<jamest_> and gsds to define the table structures
<jamest_> would this stuff be worth putting somewhere for others to mess with?
<jcater> if nothing else, it'd make a great gnue-sample/ app
<jamest_> and does using the gsd make it easy to slap appserver in
<jcater> but I think we should get in svn somehow at least
<jcater> so we can exploit your work
<jcater> err, I mean, get some use out of it
<jamest_> i want it in svn
<jamest_> just didn't know if it is worth sticking in gnue or if I should make a new repository for now
<jamest_> btw
Action: jamest_ hangs his head in shame
<jamest_> I will be using pdfmerge in this system to generate the POs
<jamest_> (it's java based)
<jamest_> i entertained the idea of porting iText from java to pyText
<jamest_> but sloccount reports iText is a 51000line project
<chillywilly> what mod_python are you using?
<jamest_> 3.1
<chillywilly> me too
<jamest_> currently
<jamest_> i was tracking head
<jamest_> chillywilly: what you using it for?
<chillywilly> an appserver
<chillywilly> right now I am dicking with my exim config :(
<chillywilly> not behaving the way I want it to
<chillywilly> returns unreouteable address instead of bouncing the mail back to the sender
<chillywilly> and with this sucky fax program people are using they will have no way to know it failed
<jcater> what is itext?
<jamest_> java based library for manipulating pdf files
<jamest_> reads and writes them
<jamest_> unlike reportlabs that charges for the read
<jamest_> pdfmerge is really just a 20-30 line app that wrappers iText
<jamest_> loads 2 pdf files
<jamest_> creates an empty one
<jamest_> says newFile.addTemplate(file1)
<jamest_> newFile.addTemplate(file2)
<jamest_> done
<jamest_> also seems to have rtf stuff in there
<jamest_> after the next release I _really_ need to get some stuff in common for wife and client
<jamest_> pending everyones approval of course
<jamest_> then i thought about looking to see what it'd take to rip just the pdf part of itext out
<jamest_> as I can't imagine 51000 lines of java would == 51000 lines of python
<jamest_> and you guys know I love working in java
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> freak
<jamest_> it's going to kill me to include java in this project
<jcater> we'd beat you really hard
<jcater> but I don't think we'd go that far
<jamest_> this == this po thing
<jamest_> sigh, i also want/need this to be a turnkey install thing
<jamest_> insert cd, boot computer, have it go all icop install on them
<jamest_> like a 
<jamest_> GNUe Turnkey Office Server Edition
<jamest_> ooooo
<jamest_> GNUe Office Automation Turnkey Server
<jamest_> GOATS
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<nickr> :-O
<chillywilly> heheh
<bddebian> Heya chillywilly!
<jamest_> i'm going to have to do it now
<chillywilly> hi bddebian 
<bddebian> chillywilly: Any luck?
<chillywilly> well I can install debian but I can't get it to boot with quik
<chillywilly> although the power jack on the back is loose and crappy
<bddebian> You get a floppy or did you figure out how to netboot it?
<chillywilly> installed debian with the floppy drive
<chillywilly> hsf floppy image
<chillywilly> it reads the disk on boot up and starts up
<bddebian> Cool.. :-)
<chillywilly> why couldn't they make it easier to take the thing apart?
<chillywilly> I need to fix the power plug in the back
<chillywilly> uses some funky star bot
<chillywilly> bit
<chillywilly> for the screws
<chillywilly> sucks man
<chillywilly> a real tiny one
<bddebian> I know, Apple has done that for a long tiime.  The old Classics were really a pita to open because of that bit and it was sunk deep in the case
<chillywilly> bastids
<chillywilly> so you would have to take it in and pay them to fix it right ;)
<bddebian> heh
<chillywilly> nice business model...
<chillywilly> bastids
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<jamest_> so where should I put that po stuff while I'm playing?
<jamest_> in gnue-samples
<jamest_> or completely seperate repository?
<jamest_> then merge in later
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<reinhard> off for today
<reinhard> bye all
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<wendall911> jamest_: are there any plans for how the samples are organized?
<jamest_> nope
<wendall911> jamest_: would be nice ;)
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<ajmitch> hello
<jamest_> why hello
<dsmith> Better than "Grrrr!"
<ajmitch> which is a good sign, I hope :)
<chillywilly> grrrrrrrrrrr
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<jemfinch|lambda> I cannot figure out some SQL to do what I want.
<jamest> ok
<jemfinch|lambda> I've got a markov chain database.
<jemfinch|lambda> so I've got a table, pairs, with (id, first, second, is_first)
<jemfinch|lambda> and then a table follows, with (id, pair_id, word)
<jemfinch|lambda> there are numerous follows rows that relate to a given pairs row (via pair_id)
<jemfinch|lambda> and I just want to find out which pairs have the most follows rows associated with them.
<jcater> what database?
<jemfinch|lambda> sqlite.
<jemfinch|lambda> I've got subselects, group by, etc. I just don't have enough SQL in my brain to do it.
Action: jemfinch|lambda notes that SQLite should not be used for large databases.
<jemfinch|lambda> (in case you guys ever run into someone who's hooked on SQLite as I used to be, feel free to refer them to me)
<jemfinch|lambda> this should be some sort of benchmark for databases.
<jamest> i've nevered worked w/ a markov chain
<jcater> select id, first_second from pairs 
<jcater>  where id in (
<jcater>   select pair_id 
<jcater>    from follows 
<jcater>    group by pair_id
<jcater>    having count(*) in ( 
<jcater>       select max(cnt) from 
<jcater>        ( select count(*) as cnt
<jcater>           from follows
<jcater>           group by pair_id) ));
<jcater> does sqlite allow multiple subselects like that?
<jemfinch|lambda> sure.
<jemfinch|lambda> although "allow" and "is able to complete within my lifetime" may not coincide :)
<jcater> s/first_second/first,second/
<jcater> is this a frequent query?
<jcater> if not, this may be a good candidate for temporary tables
<jemfinch|lambda> no, this is just me getting some stats before I switch to a different database.
<jemfinch|lambda> the real issue here is that Markov's chains shouldn't be done in SQL :)
<jemfinch|lambda> since SQL can't do "give me a random row" very easily or efficiently.
<jcater> yeah, that's more a procedural function
<jcater> than a set-related function
<jemfinch|lambda> yeah.
Action: jcater is wanting to use sqlite in an upcoming project
<jemfinch|lambda> ick, don't!
<jcater> we're using metakit for it's predecessor
<jemfinch|lambda> especially if you're going to use it from Python.
<jcater> why?
<jemfinch|lambda> because PySQLite is horrible.
<jemfinch|lambda> and SQLite itself is less capable than it makes itself out to be.
<jemfinch|lambda> (as a note, that query returned nothing)
<jcater> :(
<jcater> sorry
Action: jcater didn
<jcater> 't have data to play with
<jemfinch|lambda> it's all good.  What's the temporary table solution?
<jemfinch|lambda> it's a 63MB database (17MB bzip2ed) otherwise I'd suggest you get it.
<jcater> does
<jcater> select max(cnt) from 
<jcater>        ( select count(*) as cnt
<jcater>           from follows
<jcater>           group by pair_id)
<jcater> return anything?
Action: jcater isn't sure where it'd fail
<jemfinch|lambda> I'm running it.
<jemfinch|lambda> it's taking its sweet little time.
<jemfinch|lambda> ah, 782.
<jemfinch|lambda> that's what it returns.
<jcater> well, shoot
<jcater> select id, first_second from pairs 
<jcater>  where id in (
<jcater>   select pair_id 
<jcater>    from follows 
<jcater>    group by pair_id
<jcater>    having count(*) = 782
<jcater> ?
<jemfinch|lambda> is that the largest number of rows in follows with the same pair_id?
<jcater> yes, should be3
<jemfinch|lambda> ok, that's good enough :)
<jemfinch|lambda> it's small enough for me.
<jemfinch|lambda> I just wanted to make sure it wasn't like 10k or something.
<jcater> ah
<dneighbo> jamest i vote for separate repository
<dneighbo> i wish it made it into somethign like gnue-sb
<dneighbo> but this use of odd external software is disturbing
<dneighbo> mostly becasue it gives GNU Enterprise cant provide solutions with out lots of external work
<dneighbo> i.e. unless you know the internals of GNU Enterprise you cant do much with hit
<dneighbo> er it
<dneighbo> while that is not the case, that is how it would appear
<dneighbo> that is merely my opinion
<dneighbo> im really concerned why using this pdf java tool for the po app
<jamest> because the tools to do it in any other conceivable language simply do not exist in free form
<jamest> because I'm having to support multiple forms from multiple departmens with different needs to final output
<bddebian> PostScript!!!
<bddebian> ;-P
<jamest> find a utility that lets you overlay 2 postscript files on top of each other 
<jamest> i've looked
<jamest> for years
<jamest> same with PDF
<jamest> this app I'm working on is so 100% gnue based it's not funny
<bddebian> I'm talking about the PostScript language.. :-)
<jamest> i'm forcing myself to use every available option regardless of merrit 
<jamest> to find the cracks
<jamest> like gnue-schemas lack of enforcing ref integ on the table defs
<jamest> i've coded forms in PS
<jamest> i need this maintainable by someone other than me
<jamest> my target is a turnkey solution
<jamest> a bootable install cd 
<jemfinch|lambda> jcater: thanks for the help :)
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<jamest> and I stated that eventually I was going to look at creating a pyText as a python equiv to iText 
<jamest> however iText is 51000 lines of code
<jamest> and I need this ASAP if I want to get it in place in one of the biggest departments on campus
<jamest> i've got a chance to put gnue in 2 campus offices one of which has major clout on campus
<jamest> so I have to make compromises
<jamest> but again
<jamest> if anyone can find me a c lib, or python lib that can allow me to take a PS or PDF file and overlay it over the top of another one
<jamest> <blank form> | <filled in text in field positions>
<jamest> then I'd be delighted to use it
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