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<btami> trying to svn up:
<btami> svn: Can't open file 'gnue-common/src/schema/importer/.svn/lock': Permission denied
<btami> what's wrong?
<btami> hmm, it worked yesterday...
<siesel> trying
<btami> ok, accidentalli i'v made an up yesterday as root
<btami> sorry :)
<btami> after chown -R etc. it's working again :)
<siesel> good :)
<johannesV> hello siesel
<siesel> hi johannesV
<johannesV> we're trying to work on the translation stuff
<siesel> I did some preparation work too
<siesel> How far did you get? What are your plans?
<johannesV> we've just created an up-to-date .po-file
<johannesV> using xgettext and msgmerge
<johannesV> doing this reinhard has changed the create-po.sh script
<johannesV> :)
<siesel> cool.
<johannesV> I've revised all our sources yesterday so I can start a translation run today
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<siesel> have you already choosen which tool to use?
<johannesV> tool to use for what, doing the translation or generating the .po files ?
<siesel> for the translation
<johannesV> hmm, vi ... is there anything else :))
<siesel> I would recommend the new version of gtranslator. But kbabel is ok too. 
<johannesV> hmm, haven't looked at gtranslator by now
<johannesV> any reasons which are against vi ?
<kilo> hmmm, that means i can translate the .po to any language?
<siesel> yes
Action: johannesV uses vi for almost everything
<kilo> beware, scottish/irish gaelic translation coming then...
<siesel> johannesV: I dunno if vi has a .po mode, but using gtranslator helps you to keep the format and the encoding right
<siesel> but most important: it can learn translations 
<johannesV> siesel: vim has a po-syntax-file
<siesel> johannesV: use what you can use best.
<johannesV> :)
<siesel> btw. you've got the old translations merged in, right?
<johannesV> of course, this is done by msgmerge
<kilo> anon svn isnt working. can anyone help on that?
<reinhard> siesel: what's the status for windows?
<reinhard> any chance we can release over the weekend?
<siesel> IMHO yes, as windows is just broken for unicode forms.
<siesel> but I'm working to get it done until the weekend too
<reinhard> so shall we wait with the release?
<siesel> no.
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> so we'll release this afternoon
<btami> btw. can someone reproduce the common's bug i'v described in
<btami> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/irc-logs/gnue-public.log.24Feb2004
<reinhard> not me
<siesel> you mean the double connection bug?
<btami> yep
<btami> it just needs 2 db entries in connections.conf with same proveder
<siesel> do you use both of them?
<siesel> and what is the provider name?
<btami> one for one form only
<btami> provider=interbase 
<btami> can you try with other db like pg or mysql ?
<btami> i have only firebird installed here
<siesel> ok. trying
<kilo> we have tried it with adodbapi too, and it also shows errors
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<siesel> reinhard: can you wait with the release until tonight, as I found some more errors in common
<siesel> bbl
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<reinhard> siesel: ok
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<reinhard> hi dimas
<dimas> hello reinhard
<reinhard> were you involved in the translation of gnue?
<reinhard> i wonder why it was decided to only have a single domain
<reinhard> i.e. only have gnue.po/gnue.mo instead of gnue-common.mo, gnue-forms.mo etc
<dimas> do not understand this
<reinhard> ok let me rephrese
<dimas> it was done a lost ago
<reinhard> translations are written in a .po file
<dimas> long
<reinhard> you could have gnue-common.py and gnue-forms.po etc. separated
<dimas> all other translation at the time looked the same way
<dimas> and i have not updated mine
<reinhard> ok
<dimas> is it urgent to fix?
<reinhard> no
<reinhard> was just wondering
<dimas> so not to upcoming release?
<reinhard> so i would probably have to ask arturas
<reinhard> no, it's something we want to do after the release
<dimas> no, it's more my duty not Arturas
<dimas> :)
<dimas> so you would probably have to ask me :)
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<reinhard> dimas: it's not about specific translations
<reinhard> it's about how the translations are organized generally
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<dimas> reinhard: ah,ok
<siesel> reinhard: dunno, why it is created this way. But it probably was easier to have only one message catalog than two or three message catalogs (xx.po) files
<siesel> f.e. if we would split between modules gnue-forms would need access to common.po and forms.po. gnue-navigator even would need access to reports,forms,common and navigator. And the catalogs would all need to be checked for a translation, so checking only one IMHO make sense.
<siesel> the other possibility would be differetriate between _common_() and _forms_() instead of _() but then we can't use xgettext anymore
<siesel> .
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<reinhard> siesel: or, we make _() recognize which module it was called from
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<reinhard> jamest: we are preparing for a final release tonight
<reinhard> (that would be afternoon for you)
<reinhard> is that ok with you?
<jamest> fine w/ me
<reinhard> another question
<reinhard> wrt some thoughts for a job after the release
<jamest> yes?
<reinhard> you remember anything why we did gnue.po / gnue.mo for translations
<reinhard> instead of gnue-common.mo, gnue-appserver.mo, gnue-forms.mo etc.
<reinhard> ?
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<jamest> nope
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<jamest> IIRC art did translation stuff
Action: jamest can barely understand english 
<reinhard> ok thanks
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<jcater> word up, peeps
<jamest> yo yo yo
<reinhard> hi ho
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<btami> reinhard: siesel's answer is the best you can get about .po files IMHO
<reinhard> btami: ok, thanks
<reinhard> jcater, jamest
<reinhard> i have some ideas for common
<reinhard> and want to ask you if you would be ok with them:
<btami> btw. the anon svn was broken again, why this happening from time to time?
<reinhard> 1. try to split up translations into seperate files for each package (currently all translations are installed along with gnue-common) - i am aware of the problems siesel pointed out but i believe they could be solvable
<reinhard> 2. like (almost) any other project, have the .po and .mo files in a flat ./po/ subdirectory and name them <language>.po (for example de.po), would require changes in setup.py install
<reinhard> 3. go through all datasources and logic stuff and make it *really* unicode safe
<reinhard> 4. implement those base exception classes we talked about lately
<reinhard> 5. implement a function like checktype() that throws an exception if a parameter isn't the expected type (could help a lot with 3.)
<reinhard> [end of list]
<reinhard> :)
<btami> reinhard: why 1. ? it's simple/clean now 
<reinhard> btami: i don't think that it's good to install all translations for all tools when you only need forms
<reinhard> for example
<reinhard> also
<reinhard> if we want to release appserver, but we don't want to release common
<reinhard> we can't update the translations with the release
<btami> hmm, good point
<jcater> I like 1-4
<jcater> and like 5 as long as it doesn't adversely affect performance
<reinhard> well, did we ever care for performance??
<reinhard> ;-)
Nick change: btami -> btami_away
<reinhard> seriously
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<reinhard> i think it shouln't be too expensive (performance wise)
<reinhard> and it's still our decision when we actually use it
<jcater> I said I'm ok with it
<jcater> as long as it doesn't adversely affect performance
<reinhard> yeah, well
<jcater> we probably wouldn't want it in functions that are called thousands of times
<reinhard> so we actually have the same opinion here :)
<jcater> like the event system
<jcater> yip
<reinhard> where even in such cases
<reinhard> it could be of much help as a temporary debugging support
<jcater> in a way I wish python had a type of #if construct
<reinhard> yes
<jcater> where we could strip all such lines out on release
<reinhard> #ifdef DEBUG
<jcater> as a log of the gDebug stuff I wish wasn't there come release time
<jcater> but need when debugging cvs
<reinhard> hmmm
<reinhard> could something like this work?
<reinhard> def ignore (param):
<reinhard>   pass
<reinhard>   
<reinhard> def really_checktype (param):
<reinhard>   do_something_really_complex()
<reinhard>   
<reinhard> if do_we_want_debugging():
<reinhard>   checktype = really_checktype
<reinhard> else:
<reinhard>   checktype = ignore
<jcater> it does help
<jcater> I've done that with a few things
<jcater> if you look in gnue.common.apps.__init__
<jcater> I do that with gDebug
<jcater> it's a simple "return"
<jcater> if debugging mode isn't set
<jcater> and the gDebug thing is replaced with the real gDebug if debugging is turned on
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> the checktype, i'd rather let there anyway
<reinhard> even for releases
<reinhard> in cases where it's no performance problem of course :)
<jamest> i'm ok with those changes
<jamest> as for performance I'm sure we can work around it
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> thanks j*
<jamest> absolute worse case we might be able to try out pyrex for performance critical parts
<jamest> i'd prefer to avoid that though 
<jcater> reinhard/jamest: I've been playing w/some web site stuff
<jcater> can I get some feedback on what you think
<jcater> jamest has seen it somewhat already
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/test-web/project/
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/test-web/tools/
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/test-web/tools/forms/
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<jcater> (and anyone else who wants to comment)
<jamest> i like it
<reinhard> looks good at first sight
<reinhard> some questions
<jcater> some of my goals: 
<jcater>   - Separate coder docs from user/developer (note the Developer's Corner)
<jcater>   - Keep front page from being a link fest
<jcater>   
<reinhard> i have a blank region at the left and right edge of the page
<jamest>   - learn CSS so jamest can ask questions when implementing in his web-po system
<reinhard> is that on purpose?
<jcater>   - Emphasis the difference between tools and packages
<jcater>     (and that one is really ready to be used and one isn't even started)
<jcater> um
<jamest> reinhard: it' centers on your browser window size
<jcater> not sure
<jcater> this is all CSS layout
<jcater> no tables
<jcater> no <font>
<jamest> i'm pretty sure you fix width's the body didn't you?
<reinhard> well my question was actually
<jcater> jamest: yes
<jcater> but that's not critical to my design
<jcater> I think the header could expand to fit
<jcater> though I don't mind this
<reinhard> is it on purpose that the page doesn't fill 
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> that answers my question :)
<reinhard> next question
<reinhard> are the "latest release" and "release history" autogenerated?
<jcater> this is nothing but a shell/demo
<jcater> BUT
<jcater> you know me well enough
<jcater> to know I'm too damned lazy
<jcater> to maintain stuff manually
<jamest> la
<reinhard> hehe
<jamest> exactly
<jcater> so everything I can automate, I will
<jamest> jcater == lazy == automate
<jamest> it's like the sun shining
<jcater> I meant to add that to my goals
<jcater>  -- fully automated
<reinhard> what is actually the reason for wanting something new?
<reinhard> wanna get away from php?
<jcater> this is still basic php
<jcater> reinhard: I want something a little easier to maintain
<jcater> i.e., more automated
<reinhard> ok
<jcater> this site is still svn/cvs friendly
<jcater> and gnu.org/ friendly
<jcater> (if we want to keep a mirrored site there)
<jcater> and ppl have complained about the layout of the site
<reinhard> ah ok
<reinhard> because i think we could improve automation with the current site also, if we wanted
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<reinhard> if we can specify the -- fully automated a litte more
<reinhard> (you know, reinhard == lazy == let others automate)
<reinhard> ;-)
<jamest> reinhard: i think it's because I showed jcater http://www.csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/081/081.css&page=0
<jamest> jcater == lazy is one constant
<jcater> so thought it would be a could time to look at cleaning it up
<jamest> jcater == like shiny new toys
<jamest> is another
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<reinhard> well what i would think about automation
<jcater> reinhard: and that's fine too
<jcater> but I've heard people complaining about hte organziation of our site
<jcater> (and I have too a bit)
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<reinhard> 1. other than uploading the new tarball, nothing should be necessary for a release (for the web site)
<reinhard> that is, all references to current release numbers should be generated
<reinhard> 2. other than uploading a file into a specific directory, nothing should be necessary to generate a new news item
<reinhard> having said that
<reinhard> if you need help i'm game :)
<jcater> reinhard: what I was thinking
<jamest> how does the current site automate to gnu.org?
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/test-web/tools/
<reinhard> jamest: the other way around
<jcater> move those descriptions for each tool into the tools gnue.*.__init__
<jcater> and I was thinking come release time, 
<jcater> we might create a release description file
<jcater> which is nothing more than:
<jcater> release-0.5.2.txt:
<jcater>   forms=0.5.2
<jcater>   appserver=0.1.1
<jcater>   
<jcater> we could do a python script that read that file
<reinhard> jamest: ash checks out gnu.org's webcvs
<jcater> and auto-created the release announcement
<jcater> auto-created the news announcement
<jamest> ah
<jcater> and make sure the website is properly up-to-date
<jamest> i've been playing/using mod_python for this web po stuff
<jamest> and it rocks
<jcater> well, it used to
<jcater> ash isn't currently checking anything out
<reinhard> it still does AFAICT
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> jcater: cool idea
<jcater> Host key verification failed.
<jcater> cvs [update aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages if any)
<reinhard> jcater: what about not putting those descriptions into __ini__
<reinhard> __init__
<reinhard> but reading them from the source tree's README file?
<reinhard> because that's the place where they basically belong
<jcater> reinhard: either way
<jcater> what are you thinking?
<jcater> have it read the first full paragraph
<jcater> out of README?
<jamest> if they were in init wouldn't that help things like man page creation
<reinhard> or generate the README from the primary source
<reinhard> in any case
<reinhard> i'd very much like to have a single authoritive source for a description of a package
<jamest> hmmmm
<jamest> isn't description a GBaseApp var?
<jcater> why yes it is
<jcater> :)
<jcater> w00t
<jcater> and it's being translated
<reinhard> yeah
<reinhard> but GBaseApp is for an application
<jcater> well
<reinhard> not for a package
<jcater> that's different though
<jcater> yeah
<jamest> sigh
<jcater> as common doesn't have one
<reinhard> for example
<jamest> good point
<jcater> reports has two different GBaseApps
<reinhard> jcater: exactly
<jamest> while we're talking about this
<jcater> so, is this something I can continue persuing
<reinhard> jcater: in any case
<jamest> jcater: it's fine with me
<jamest> we've got a new repository tenatively named gnue-contrib
<reinhard> jcater: however, i think the release status is something that changes more often than the description :)
<jcater> ooo
<jcater> another reason I'm doing this
<jamest> it currently contains my web po experiments
<jcater> the organization of docs sucks hard
<reinhard> jcater: the docs themself suck ;-)
<jcater> um
<jcater> err
<jcater> well
Action: jcater points to the left
<jcater> "hey, look over there!"
<reinhard> but agree
<reinhard> that could be something else that could be automated
<reinhard> "last revised ..."
<reinhard> however we have to be careful with the dosc
<reinhard> docs
<reinhard> the user docs on the webpage should always fit the current official release
<reinhard> even if the docs were adapted due to some changes only in svn yet
<jamest> why not split them
<jamest> Release Docs
<jamest> Devel Docs
<reinhard> jamest: yes
<reinhard> could it be that commit mails are *slightly* delayed?
<jamest> yes
<jcater> hmmm
<jcater> I wonder if I can just do like debian does with debian/ChangeLog
<jcater> and read our <module>/NEWS file
<jcater> to get release information
<jcater> and automate it that way via  cron script at night
Action: jcater likes that idea
Action: reinhard too
<jamest> sure
<jamest> automate away!
<reinhard> so we basically have
<reinhard> * project description - README
<reinhard> * release history - NEWS
<reinhard> * planned features - TODO
<reinhard> information on the web page that matches information in text files
<jcater> I want to get the individual module FAQs formatted consistently too
<reinhard> yeah
<jcater> so I can automatically build a per-tool FAQ online too
<reinhard> seriously
<jcater> reinhard: my goal is for no one to ever need to touch the website again :)
<reinhard> i'd also consider the other way
<reinhard> generating README, NEWS, TODO and FAQ from an authoritive source
<reinhard> and generating the web page from the same source
<reinhard> still not sure though
<jamest> jcater: how is this going to work w/ savannah though?
<jamest> or do they do php now?
<jcater> well, the current website is php iirc
<jcater> or is that only the release stuff/
<jcater> worst case, I'm not opposed to just automating some wget thing
<reinhard> the current website has php parts
<reinhard> but those are the parts that are not mirrored
<jcater> bugger
<reinhard> docs/ and downloads/
<jcater> personally, I'd prefer to have an overview page at fsf again, that links to main site
<jcater> but we got away from that for some reason
<jamest> to be a team player
<jamest> IIRC
<jcater> sigh
<reinhard> i have not much experience in php
<jcater> thing is, I was hoping to add some svn hooks
<reinhard> but i found that one can do lots with a makefile
<jcater> to auto update website
<reinhard> jcater: so there would have to be an automatic commit to webcvs
<reinhard> can that be done?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> with an ssh key
<jamest> w/o a passphrase
<jcater> well, this site is no less Makefile-compatable than the old one
<jcater> so I can always do that if need be
<jamest> sigh
<jamest> why are we even fighting this
<jamest> why not let get the web site fully automated
<jamest> then go to a static gnu.org site or maybe a wget one
<jamest> more than a small part of me would like to see gnuenterprise.org use mod_python
<jamest> and gnue-common
<jamest> well, at least python
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<jcater> even if we did revert to a simpler site on gnu.org
<jcater> it could still be fully auto-generated
<danielb> hey
<jcater> so never out of date
<jcater> but either way
<jcater> word, chilly
<reinhard> jcater: that's pretty much what i'm thinking, too
<reinhard> autogenerated doesn't mean it can't be "static" html
<reinhard> just the .html files change like magic :)
<jamest> oooooo magic
<jcater> sounds like snake oil to me!
<jcater> but, back to gnu.org
<jcater> it's not a fully-functional site as is
<jcater> requires a lot of linking back to gnuenterprise.org to be useful
<jcater> unless we really did just wget the entire site
<reinhard> currently yes
<jcater> and put releases, docs, etc, there too
<reinhard> well what we currently have on ash only is
<reinhard> downloads/
<reinhard> and docs/
<jcater> on a more selfish note
<jcater> I wish I could use svn instead of cvs for this :)
<reinhard> both is probably because we didn't want to bother with the upload procedure to ftp.gnu.org
<jcater> hmmm
<jcater> thinking about that more
<jcater> I think we should keep our web in our own svn
<jamest> man
<jcater> and find some way to push regularly to gnu.org's cvs
<jamest> there was some project i saw last month that used svn
<jcater> *because*, otherwise, 
<jamest> but had a cvs setup too
<jcater> we all have to get savannah accounts again
<jcater> otherwise one person has to be the release coordinator
<jcater> (which I don't want)
<jamest> i vote derek
<jamest> :)
<jcater> don't say his name three times!
<jcater> he might show up
<danielb> 2004-03-05 10:53:21 1AzIZd-0000zc-FJ H=steel.metalexpress.net (osts) [192.168.183.18] F=<danielb@metalexpress.net> rejected after DATA: This message contains malware (Worm.Bagle.F-zippwd-3)
<danielb> w00t!
<jcater> and give his opinion
<jcater> :)
<jcater> fwiw
<jcater> if anyone's interested
<jcater> http://agriroot.aua.gr/~nikant/nkvir/
<jcater> I'm using that on my mailserver now
<jcater> it rocks
<jcater> it's procmail rules to filter out viruses
<jcater> based on their base64 signature
<jcater> I'm using it company-wide
<danielb> I setup clamav
<danielb> actually has a live database with updates from mirror via cron
<danielb> mirrors
<danielb> clamav + exim's exiscan acl stuff
<jcater> I couldn't get clamav to work for some reason
<jamest> danielb: there is no reason you can't use both
<danielb> well I just mailed myself this virus and it blocked it
<jamest> as that procmail rule is simple to use if your MDA is procmail
<jcater> I want to use clamav
<danielb> I dunno clamav does more though doesn't it?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> i imagine so
<jcater> I may try again when upgrading my mail server
<danielb> it matches virus sigs and will look i archive files
<danielb> you can submit sigs of your own
<jcater> this is a production server, so I can't test new stuff too easily :)
<danielb> you can manually add more virii sigs
<danielb> etc.
<danielb> I have a test server and a production one
<danielb> ;P
<jamest> test server?
<jamest> wtf is a test server?
<danielb> a development box for hacking code on and trying new server config before I go break the production system ;)
<jamest> so you're goofing off
<jamest> wasting all that time breaking the test system instead of the real one
<danielb> heh
<danielb> people don't like it when you break email
<danielb> they get a bit cranky
<jamest> anyway on that gnue-contrib repository
<jamest> this is something jcater and I talked about a little
<jamest> somewhere to put misc crap that people want to store somewhere for others to look at/use/learn from
<jamest> don't know if contrib is a good name or not
<reinhard> sounds like non-free ;-)
<reinhard> j/k
<jamest> lol
<reinhard> i'm ok with the name
<jamest> take this web po thing 
<jamest> it's showing a bit of gnue in use but it's not gnue
<jamest> doesn't really fit the mold
<jamest> so is the repository worth providing?
<jamest> and how much would we want to open to others for use?
<jcater> I like it
<jcater> and I say we address the "open to others" as the issue comes up
<jcater> :)
<reinhard> for the record
<reinhard> i am preparing the NEWS and ChangeLog files for the release
<jamest> great
<jcater> cool
<reinhard> and i'm ready to do the release as soon as sieses is ready with his last fixes for common
<reinhard> or in 2-3 hours, whichever comes first
<jamest> lol
<jcater> rofl
<jamest> so that's why he's so quiet
<jamest> work faster siesel!
<reinhard> if just somebody could do the announcing then
<jamest> sigh
<reinhard> for the web page and the mailing list
<jamest> that reminds me
<jamest> we used to annouce on places like freshmeat
<reinhard> as well as update the status et al on the web
<jcater> reinhard: sure
<jamest> was logged in the other day and we haven't done that in years
<jamest> so we look dead there
<reinhard> yeah 
<reinhard> i think we are also one of the most dead looking projects on sourceforge
<reinhard> where we are also registered IIRC
<jamest> i thought they purged us?
<jcater> do we at least have a redirect there?
<reinhard> i have no idea
<jamest> maybe these are sites we need to address during releases?
Action: jcater would really like to work on generating more interest in the tools
<jamest> as part of the release process
<jamest> the tools rock
<jcater> jamest: I could see that
<jamest> i love common
<jcater> I'm wanting to create an announcement.txt thing, with stuff you can cut and paste into such places
<jcater> so maybe we also have it print a checklist at the end
<reinhard> http://sourceforge.net/projects/gnue/
<jcater> of that file
<jamest> i'm hoping to find lots of little crap we can put in gnue-contrib to show what common can do
<jcater> wow
<reinhard> no further comment necessary on that page...
<jcater> also
<jcater> derek
<jamest> man
<jcater> when can we get www.gnue.org back?
<jcater> :)
<jamest> i swear sf.net said long ago if I didn't respond to an email they'd purge us
<jamest> i'd like gnue.org back too
<jamest> i know it potentially screws w/ your mail settings 
<jamest> but a simple forward on ash should take of that
<jamest> wow
<jcater> I wonder how scriptable sourceforge is?
<jamest> it's like a gnue spring cleaning
<jcater> if they have ssh/rsync type stuff, should we consider syncing?
<jcater> I personally just wish they'd purge us
<jcater> but I don't think they do that
<jcater> as they like to tout how many projects they have
<jamest> they were going to
<danielb> slowforge
<danielb> sourcescorge
<jcater> I mean, hell
<jcater> they still have my 4 yr old project
<jcater> http://sourceforge.net/projects/avenue/
<jcater> without a freaking description even!
<danielb> yea that avenue was going to be something great
<jcater> we actually have an internal version
<jcater> just never got around to releasing anything
<jcater> I want to do it w/ gnue-common instead
<danielb> wth is it?
<jcater> AVE == Address Verification Engine
<danielb> oh
<jcater> it takes the zip+4 information from the postal service
<jamest> http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=14041&group
<jcater> and standardizes/verifies addresses
<danielb> I see
<jcater> ERROR - No group_id was chosen. 
<jamest> sounds like all we need to do is something illegal
<jcater> hmm
<jamest> http://sourceforge.net/docman/display_doc.php?docid=14041&group_id=1#projectremoval
<jamest> jcater: still got those nudes of derek we've been threating him with?
<jamest> maybe it's time to post
<danielb> is there something wrong with me when I pick "low" on the debian install and it says this is for control freaks who want to see everything? ;)
<danielb> erm, the debconf setting
<jamest> danielb: yes
<danielb> heheh
<jcater> what was the question?
<jcater> I stopped reading after "is there something wrong with mm"
<jcater> s/mm/me/
<jamest> jcater: he wants to know if something is wrong with him
<danielb> ouch
<jamest> you know we love you chilly
<danielb> aaawww
<jamest> and this is our way of showing it
<jamest> abuse
<danielb> I wub youse guys too
<jcater> jamest: do you remember your sf.net login information?
Action: jcater thinks we should at least change the description
<jcater> to point to gnue.org
<jcater> and say we don't release files on SF.net any longer
<jamest> sure
<jcater> or add jcater as a project admin
<siesel> reading log
<siesel> working faster :)
<jamest> point then to www.gnuenterprise.org
<reinhard> siesel: :)
<danielb> hi siesel 
<danielb> reinhard: 
<siesel> hi daniel, reinhard
<siesel> the idea of having a gnue-contrib is great
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<reinhard> siesel: you tell me when you're ready for release, ok?
<reinhard> i've commmitted NEWS files
<reinhard> please tell me if anything is missing
<reinhard> jcater: re our automatic website
<reinhard> apart from getting the description from README
<reinhard> and our release history from NEWS
<reinhard> and a web faq from the FAQ file
<reinhard> we could also autogenerate the developers and contributors list from the AUTHORS and THANKS files
<siesel> reinhard: I still try to reproduce btami's bug
<reinhard> it's not that i want to hurry you
<reinhard> i'll be afk for an hour now anyway
<reinhard> just want to make sure that i don't wait for you when you're already finished :)
<siesel> I want to go to sleep early today, so it will be quite soon
<reinhard> ok :)
<siesel> I tell you :)
<reinhard> early == early in the morning? ;-)
<siesel> no I thought of 2-3 o'clock local time
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> that's *not* early
<siesel> The stuff I think is too much to fix in one day, I've created a bug for
<siesel> :)
<siesel> like some possible errors if database encoding != local encoding
<reinhard> siesel: you read the list i plan to do in common?
<reinhard> should be in today's logs
<reinhard> one of the points is to work through the dbdrivers wrt unicode
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<siesel> I read it. Everything has my ok. Just point 5 I don't really like
<siesel> I would recommend a check with a  python "assert" command instead
<siesel> as there are many function which can take between 2 and 5 arguments, and sometimes some named arguments and some standart ones, etc. 
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<reinhard> siesel: what i am thinking of is something like
<siesel> oops, I see you just want to have a checktype(), not a checkparams()
<reinhard> def foo (bar, baz, frob=None):
<reinhard>   checktype (bar, UnicodeType)
<reinhard>   checktype (baz, [StringType, UnicodeType, None])
<reinhard>   checktype (frob, [None, datasource.connection])
<reinhard> if you get what i mean
<siesel> I would prefer "assert(type(bar)==UnicodeType)"
<siesel> assert(type(bar) in [StringType, UnicodeType, None])
<reinhard> checktype could do a bit more
<reinhard> like raise an exception that says
<reinhard> "function gnue.common.datasource.foo parameter baz was expected to be of [StringType, UnicodeType, None] but is of Float and has value 17.33"
<reinhard> which is much more information for debugging
<siesel> before I forget some comments to the other points: 4 is important for RPC, as common exception classes helps with transfering errors over the wire
<siesel> reinhard: ok. assert can't do this now. but can we use another name, as checktype seems to have influence on the program and i would like something like "confirmtype" or "asserttype" better
<siesel> and about point 2: a solution to differentiate between the translation of a string in common or in forms could be done by analysing the __file__ tag
<siesel> I'm still not shure if and how easy it is, probably we have to go up the call stack of _() one step, get the __file__ value, and take the second value (gnue.common.----)
<jcater> bleh
<jcater> no way to merge po instances?
<jcater> like load common then load whatever tool is using common?
<reinhard> siesel: that's actually what we are planning to do
<siesel> jcater: this is probably easier
<reinhard> i think this is not expensive (performance wise)
<siesel> reinhard: about 3: it seems that the way gnue handles translation files is the default way to do it
<siesel> it can be changed quite easily, but IMHO we need to have language subdirs to be able to have multiple translation file for common/forms etc.
<reinhard> you mean 2.?
<reinhard> make a ./po/ subdirectory?
<reinhard> AFAICT the standard way to handle that is
<siesel> oops, yes seems to be 2
<reinhard> to have for example in gnue-appserver
<reinhard> a subdirectory po
<reinhard> and for example a po/de.po
<reinhard> and a po/de.gmo
<siesel> dunno, I haven't checked many projects
<reinhard> and then po/de.gmo gets installed as /usr/share/locales/de/LC_MESSAGES/gnue-appserver.mo
<siesel> you mean have the po files at the same place as the sourcecode, or put it in share/appserver/po
<reinhard> in the source tree, the source is in src/ and the po files are in po/
<siesel> ok. now I got it. You mean po subdir for svn only.
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> exactly
<reinhard> also it's quite standard to have a po/gnue-appserver.pot file
<siesel> that's good.
<reinhard> which would be an empty tranlsation
<reinhard> translation
<reinhard> note the .pot ending for "po template"
<reinhard> however
<reinhard> this all is for *after* the release
<reinhard> we need to get the release out first :)
<siesel> nice. If we have a script which adds standart gnue copyright templates to the po files after running xmerger would be nice too. after the release :)
<siesel> jcater: about the website: great stuff. We should switch to something like this as soon as possible
<siesel> IMHO just the color and the font of the GNU Enterprise logo needs improvement.
<jcater> ?
Action: jcater is partial to my fonts :)
<siesel> :)
<siesel> ok. but could you change the color? 
<jcater> ?
<jcater> to what?
<siesel> as I think the light blue is a bit too agressive.
<jcater> well, I've never been partial to light blue, honestly
<jcater> but the old site was there and everytime I asked to have it changed
<jcater> people bitched
<jcater> people == derek, mainly
<jcater> :)
<siesel> yeah
<jcater> I can play with that some later though
<jcater> that wouldn't be a big change
<siesel> I don't know what to change to best, but I think we need something that looks quite serious and confirming
<siesel>  I mean, I don't know, what looks best.
<reinhard> <siesel> The stuff I think is too much to fix in one day, I've created a bug for
<reinhard> did that actually mean you're done?
<jamest> i'm cool w/ a color change
<jcater> I'm ok with the blue
<jcater> would nto have been my first choiuce
<jcater> but it looks ok, imho
<jcater> I will try others though
<jcater> I will say, though, I have no desire to do graphical design via committee again
Action: jcater ducks
<jcater> that's kind of what happened to our old site
<jamest> i agree
<jamest> i think we need to make it mandatory that only jcater maintains the site
<jamest> should solve that issue 
<siesel> yes, jcater is our man. :)
<jcater> I think jamest is being a smart ass now
<jamest> now?
<jamest> you mean before now you've taken things i've said as serious?
<jamest> wow
<jcater> what?
<jcater> you weren'
<jcater> t serious about putting derek's naked pic on sf.net?
Action: jcater runs to take it down
<siesel> reinhard: I just try to fix the issue btami is talking about. The rest after the release. But to your question: now. I'm not done yet.
<jamest> oh that, yeah that was serious
<reinhard> siesel: ok
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<siesel> jcater: does it have a reason, that the import of postgresql connection drivers is not defered ?
<jcater> just an oversight, I'm sure
<jcater> I was interrupted a lot when I was changing the drivers
<jcater> so I probably thought I had changed it
<siesel> I'm checking it now and will try to defer as much as possible
<siesel> as that helps me fixing the problem btami reported
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<siesel> reinhard: btami's bug is fixed now. I commit in the next minutes
<reinhard> siesel: cool
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<siesel> commited :)
<reinhard> siesel: thanks
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<siesel> np. seems like it got a bit late, but its done for now :)
<reinhard> np
<reinhard> still early enough
<reinhard> i'll run a few last tests and the post the release
<siesel> can you test the different postgresql drivers?
<reinhard> yes
<wendall911> what do you guys use to burn iso images?
<siesel> as I did change the code a little little bit and although i tested them all myself, another eye is good.
<siesel> xcdroast
<siesel> but pigeon seems to be nice too :)
<reinhard> all 4 postgres drivers work
<reinhard> s/work/work for me/ :-)
<siesel> great :)
<wendall911> siesel: thanks...been looking around and not happy with the ones i've tried
<wendall911> siesel: will it do cl?
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<wendall911> siesel: or does it just use cdrecord like all the others?
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<reinhard> last chance for comments on the NEWS files
<reinhard> 3
<reinhard> 2
<reinhard> 1
<reinhard> over
<reinhard> building tarballs...
<jcater> wait!
<jcater> (just kidding)
<siesel> wendall911: no it uses cdrecord i think
<siesel> reinhard: seems like gnue-common is missing a BUGS file.
<danielb> there are no bugs
<danielb> only features
<danielb> undocumented features
<reinhard> siesel: gnue-common has no bugs.
<reinhard> ;-)
<jamest> any errors in output are the fault of the user
<jcater> siesel: I'll be straightening out all the supporting files after the release
<jcater> for my website thing
<siesel> ok.
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<siesel> night all
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<siesel> just as comment, before I forget: we have to improve error handling for gnue-common dbdriver loading. f.e. loading pygresql when not installed resulted in:
<siesel> DB000: Traceback (most recent call last):
<siesel> DB000:   File "/home/jan/Projects/gnue/trunk/gnue-common/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/forms/GFClient.py", line 175, in ?
<siesel> DB000:     GFClient().run()
<siesel> DB000:   File "/home/jan/Projects/gnue/trunk/gnue-common/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/forms/GFClient.py", line 170, in run
<siesel> DB000:     instance.activate()
<siesel> DB000:   File "/home/jan/Projects/gnue/trunk/gnue-common/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/forms/GFInstance.py", line 298, in activate
<siesel> DB000:     object.phaseInit()
<siesel> DB000:   File "/home/jan/Projects/gnue/trunk/gnue-common/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/common/definitions/GObjects.py", line 117, in phaseInit
<siesel> DB000:     self._phaseInit(phase)
<siesel> DB000:   File "/home/jan/Projects/gnue/trunk/gnue-common/.cvsdevelbase/gnue/common/definitions/GObjects.py", line 144, in _phaseInit
<siesel> DB000:     initter(phase)
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<reinhard> grrr
<jamest> You better run!
<reinhard> sieses nearly caused me a heart attack
<reinhard> while i write the release notes
<reinhard> he posts a traceback to irc
<reinhard> bad joke!!
<reinhard> ;-)
<jamest> :)
<jamest> then you really don't wnat to know that I had a user that had gfdes eat a form yesterday
<jamest> sorta eat it
<jamest> it wouldn't open
<jamest> after a sefault
<reinhard> hehe
<jamest> then tried again 
<jcater> yeah, but this is one of your users
<jamest> and it opened
<reinhard> updated the web page
<jcater> they're cursed to all ends
<jamest> by me at least
<reinhard> jcater: lol
<jcater> probably crashed it while trying to open it in elm or something
<reinhard> jcater: i updated the website, too
<jamest>  /msg jcater lol, reinhard things you're joking
<reinhard> and you're correct
<reinhard> this must become *much* more autmoated
Action: jcater is already on it
<reinhard> i also "tagged" svn
Action: jcater is quite literally doing:
<reinhard> if some svn guru can please check whether i did that correct or not
<jcater> ./create-releases
<jcater>  Update release flag?  Y
<jcater>  Create announcements? Y
<jcater>  Tag SVN? Y
<jcater> err
<jcater> ./create-releases forms reports common
<reinhard> jcater: this sounds too good to be true :)
<reinhard> that would run on ash, right?
<jcater> well
<jcater> I'm thinking of adding www/ to the gnue/ trunk
<jcater> and figuring out how to update gnu.org later on
<jamest> jcater and does each Y tie to a shell script that says
<jcater> but this would let you do releases on yoru machine
<jamest> echo "Yo Underling.  Do $task" | mail underlings@gnue.org
<reinhard> jcater: good idea
<jcater> as it'd update the www/ stuff that needed updating too
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<reinhard> jcater: could you try to re-checkout webcvs from savannah to ash?
<reinhard> i've changed the web pages for our release
<jcater> hmm
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<reinhard> there were times when cvs update worked there
<jcater> ah, it's working now
<reinhard> excellent
<jcater> was just waiting for me to answer Y to:
<jcater> RSA key fingerprint is 80:5a:b0:0c:ec:93:66:29:49:7e:04:2b:fd:ba:2c:d5.
<jcater> Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)? yes
<jcater> doh
<reinhard> jcater: what would you think about the idea
<reinhard> to include svn2cl into our general setup.py infrastructure
<reinhard> and remove ChangeLog files from svn?
<reinhard> of course this question also goes to jamest
<jcater> I'm indifferent
<jamest> or 
<jamest> random thought to have the changelog update on svn commit
<jcater> that could get into a recursive mess
<jamest> no biggie
<reinhard> yeah exactly
<reinhard> my thought is
<reinhard> never put generated files into svn
<jamest> i was just thinking that sometimes i delete commit mails before I should
<jamest> so "random though"
<jamest> i don't care if ChangeLog is in cvs
<jamest> as I currently never look at it
<reinhard> it's never current, anyway
<reinhard> and setup.py sdist could easily generate it
<jcater> honestly
<jcater> what I'd like
<jcater> is rm ChangeLog
<jcater> (auto-generate if need be)
<jcater> and change NEWS to CHANGES
<jcater> as NEWS isn't really being used as a "News" file
<jcater> or something to that effect
<jcater> or RELEASES or something more in line with its content
<reinhard> jcater: NEWS and ChangeLog are pretty much standard
<jcater> ah, ok
<jcater> I don't see NEWS that often
<reinhard> and all gnu projects have NEWS files with similar contents than our NEWS file
<jcater> ok
<reinhard> it's gnu project standard
<jcater> nevermind then :)
<reinhard> in fact
<reinhard> README, COPYING, NEWS, ChangeLog, INSTALL, and AUTHORS are must-haves for gnu projects
<reinhard> TODO and THANKS are suggested
<reinhard> AFAIK
<reinhard> http://www.gnu.org/software/gnue/news/news137.html
<reinhard> could be used as an announcement text
<reinhard> i mostly copied over from 0.5.2 releases
<jcater> march 12?
<jcater> man, that's some timezone difference
<reinhard> oops
<reinhard> sh*t
<jcater> reinhard: that looks like our standard announcement text
<jcater> so works for me
<reinhard> i got my calendar on the wrong page
<reinhard> no kidding
<jcater> I have to run home
<jcater> bbiab
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<reinhard> that means all NEWS files have march 12...
<reinhard> nevermind
<reinhard> wonder who will notice it anyway ;-))
<jamest> wow
<jamest> i know we're slow
<jamest> but that's padding things a bit :)
<ogger> hello all, downloading the 0.5.3 release from the website results in a forbidden error "you don't have permission ...". Do you aware?
<reinhard> ogger: just a second
<reinhard> uh oh yes my fault
<reinhard> should work now
<reinhard> ogger: thanks
<ogger> don't mentioned.
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<ogger> What is your opinion about a zope product for displaying gnue forms on a zope server? 
<ogger> Do you have discussed this?
<reinhard> not that i'm aware of such a discussion
<reinhard> but that doesn't mean much
<jbailey> The primary problem with web based forms is that the current forms engine is connection-oriented.
<jbailey> It needs to be tweaked to be cool with a connectionless interface.
<jamest> i think it might be able to be done via mod_python
<jamest> i'd try that long before I'd try a zope solution
<ogger> Since gnue is not very famous, such a hook (a zope product) into the zope cummunity can attract some more users/developers to the gnue project.
<ogger> jamest: What type of zope solution did you try?
<jbailey> jamest: I haven't looked at zope, but I do mod_python stuff all the time.
<reinhard> any chance i can import a .py file that is not installed in python's search path, but i know the full path to the file?
<jbailey> jamest: I looked at zope and it looked like it would be hell to work with.
<jbailey> reinhard: Not that I've been able to find.
<jbailey> reinhard: It wasn't for lack of trying, though.
<jamest> reinhard: you should be able to fake it
<jamest> sys.path.append(path)
<jamest> dyn_import from gnue-common's utils
<reinhard> doh
<jamest> delete the path
<reinhard> from src/setup import ChangeLog
<reinhard> :)
<jamest> i've done an online submission system in zope
<jamest> and math.ksu.edu is zope
<jamest> but for easy access to python mod_python blows zope out of the water
<jbailey> The only thing I've wished for with mod_python was persistant database options, and it took about 15 lines of code to put it in.
<jamest> i'm using gnue-common w/ mod_python now
<jamest> and it seems like it may be possible to track forms instances via a global dict
<jamest> then set a session var to point to the proper instance
<jamest> it seems  that way
<jamest> i've only been using mod_python for < a week
<jbailey> Oh hmm.  Look at my database persistance module, I'm using a global variable instead of a class static.  That's odd.
<jamest> i think mod_python requires it
<jamest> if you want it available to all handers
<jamest> handlers
<jbailey> I don't though - Just easy instance of mod_python, but I think a class static should do that anyway.
<jbailey> Is there common storage now between all instances?
<jbailey> I'm still on apache1.
<ogger> Maybe this is a stupid question, but keep in mind that i'm new to gnue. Why must be the forms engine connection oriented?
<jamest> i'm still learning this but it talks about using global vars for persistant connections across dbs
<jamest> i'm using a global dict to hold instances of classes in memory
<jamest> and it seems to share them fine
<jamest> but I could be full of shit
<jamest> and mod_python 3.1.3 requires apache2
<jbailey> Well..  hmm.
<jbailey> Actually that might make sense.
<jbailey> Are you using pre-fork?
<jbailey> If not, global memory might be shared within a given apache instance.
<jamest> we talking the thread fork?
<nickr> pre-fork is black magic
<jamest> i'm using 
<jbailey> nickr: Isn't pre-fork what apache1 does?
Action: jamest digs in his debs
<nickr> maybe I'm thinking of pre-link
<jamest> apache2-mpm-prefork
<jbailey> jamest: Incidentally, I'm adopting all the mod_python packages. =)
<jamest> good!
<jamest> 3.1.3 is out
<jamest> get busy!
Action: jamest runs
<jbailey> jamest: I should do something about that, I guess.
<jamest> it installs so easy it doesn't really matter to me
<jamest> so take your time :)
<jbailey> ogger: It's not that it must be - it's that it current is assumed to be.
<jbailey> ogger: No technical requirement - Just That's The Way It Is(tm)
<jamest> internally forms runs 1 instance
<jamest> but nothing that I can think for requires that anymore
<wendall911> any of you guys use coda?
<jamest> in fact one plan for navigator is to allow numerous instances of forms to run inside it
<jamest> wendall911: not me
<jamest> 1 instance can however run as many forms as one likes
<jamest> i changed that when I made forms able to use forms for dialogs
<jamest> i really think it might be possible to get the forms backend to play nice in mod_python
<jamest> now the front end.....
Action: jamest shudders
<jamest> maybe if he sacrafices a few small woodland creatures
<jamest> s/he/we
<jamest> oh crap
<jamest> need to go get wife
<jamest> bbl
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<ogger> As some of you know i'm testing gnue in order to use it and maybe to collaborate with the development. Yesterda i tried to create a very simple form that displays the first record form a table when the forms is opened.
<ogger> the problem is that i don't know at the moment how to force the from to display the first record? any help?
<wendall911> ogger: jamest may be able to answer your question 
<jamest> ogger
<jamest> on the datasource add prequery=""
<ogger> jamest: wonderful, it work, thanks.
<jamest> np
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<jamest> i need to leave for a few hours
<reinhard> hi jcater
<jamest> ah, but if you have any questions I'm sure jcater will be happy to assist
<jamest> :)
<reinhard> i added the svn2cl functionality to setup.py
<jamest> actually a great place to see the tags per item is at
<jamest> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/~jcater/docs/forms/Developers-Guide.pdf
<reinhard> jcater: so the separate file svn2cl in utils isn't needed anymore
<jamest> a lot is missing but it may give clues
<reinhard> but i didn't want to delete it w/o your ok
<jamest> any reason that isn't donated to subversion folks
<jamest> or put on our site for others to use
<jcater> oh
<jcater> hmm
Action: jcater intended on using that for more projects
<jamest> as it seems like we won't be the only one using it
<jamest> gotta run
<jamest> l8r
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<reinhard> it's not *that* general i think
<reinhard> for example it relies on the path in subversion to have one component then the module name and then the rest
<reinhard> IOW
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> but I'd figured out how to remove that
<jcater> just hadn't done it yet
<jcater> but that's ok
<reinhard> it relies on the ChangeLog being in the third directory level
<reinhard> well anyway
<reinhard> jcater: if you want, you can keep it of course
<reinhard> that's why i didn't delete it :)
<jcater> I'll likely take it out of GNUe cvs
<jcater> and put on my website
<reinhard> works for me
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<chillywilly> hi
<ajmitch> hello
<chillywilly> whaddup ajmitch ?
<ajmitch> just trying to plug in laptop
<chillywilly> did you get the battery yet or do you want me to yell at some people?
<ajmitch> yell at them
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> bastids
Action: chillywilly checks bank account
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> wth was the name of that place?
Action: chillywilly digs into email
<reinhard> hi ajmitch
<reinhard> release is out
<ajmitch> reinhard: great
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<derek> chillywilly: how do you unrar files again?
<chillywilly> unrar e filename?
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<reinhard> omg
<reinhard> 3:00 in the morning
Action: reinhard falls to bed
<reinhard> jcater: please don't forget the announcements
<reinhard> thanks
<reinhard> night all
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<jcater> reinhard: if you check logs
<jcater> I did announce
<jcater> list servers are apparently very slow tonight
<jcater> :(
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--- Sat Mar  6 2004