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Action: icltlfatppl is back (gone 03:56:36)
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<johannesV> johannes@Boston:~/prj/gnue-contrib/web-po$ svn update
<johannesV> johannes@svn.gnuenterprise.org's password: 
<johannesV> U  schema/po.gsd
<johannesV> U  schema/po_status.gsd
<johannesV> A  setup-svn
<johannesV> U  src/handlers/Login.py
<johannesV> svn: Checksum mismatch for 'src/styles/.svn/text-base/default.css.svn-base'; expected: '0eaa236239f42904291f9c19d1917ee1', actual: '58bb6372bd7998746180c0ab34e18fc4'
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<johannesV> can anybody help me with this error (i was trying to update gnue-contrib svn)
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<btami> johannesV: delete your local repo and make a clean co
<johannesV> btami: thanks, worked well 
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Action: psu really likes jcater's new draft website
<psu> good look & feel 
<psu> plus
<psu> having as much of the site automagically updated from the comments/docs in the code tree
<psu> is an obvious (so obvious why didn't *I* think of it?) solution to the problem of stale content
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<jamest_> johannesV: i corrected the typos and the data seed worked
<jamest_> (imagine that)
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Action: psu wonders how we ever survived before google
<psu> looking up info for a safety recall on our car
<psu> Best sources of info were the Barbados Nation News and the 4x4africa.com website
<psu> both of which would have been the 1st place I would have thought of to look at, naturally
<Vee> :)
<psu> Of course, in practice any google search for +python +something difficult
<psu> tends to lead back to www.gnuenterprise.org/irc-logs/ anyway
<psu> as I believe jcater has found several times before
<Vee> the power brakes went out in our jeep cherokee a while back and I went to the autozone (autoparts chain) website to see what a new booster would cost me, their site's pretty spiffy as they have you enter the year/make/model of your car and after doing so one of the menu options is to check for recalls/safety notices where I found that there had been a recall issued for the brake booster.. :)
<psu> Cool. Although i'm still a bit miffed that the first we were told about the recall was when the affected part broke down
<psu> I mean, it's not like we've moved since we bought the car
<psu> or changed phone number 
<psu> Of course, if the car was proprietary s/w, then the safety recall would be accompanied by a pro-forma invoice to "upgrade to FooSoft 2003 - now with 99% less in-car explosions!"
<psu> (to bring things even vaguely back on-topic)
<Vee> hah
<Vee> So have you still been keeping pretty busy with the day job?
<psu> same ol' same ol' ;-)
Action: psu can speak fluent American when required
<Vee> :)
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<chillywilly> morning
<jcater> yo
<Vee> 'sup chillywilly, jcater
<chillywilly> how can I dump a stack trace when an exception is thrown? :)
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<johannesV> chillywilly: hmm sys.exc_info () [2] is a trackback-object; dir (sys.exc_info () [2]) would give you more detail
<chillywilly> hmmm
<chillywilly> what am I using...
<chillywilly> ,--8<-
<chillywilly> |cept: # Something wicked happened
<chillywilly> |        self.requestHandler.sendResponse(req, Fault(1, "%s:%s"
<chillywilly> |                                                    % (sys.exc_type,
<chillywilly> |                                                       sys.exc_value)))
<chillywilly> `-->8-
<chillywilly> hmmm, guess I'll throe that thing in there
<jcater> http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python/Recipe/52215
<chillywilly> that thing is loading slow as hell for me
<jcater> yeah
<chillywilly> if it will even load at all...
<jamest_> argh!
<jamest_> fsck
[09:36] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
<jamest_> why does our mailing lists hate me
<jamest_> ooooo
<jamest_> maybe i should ask, does someone keep unsubscribing me
<jamest_> oh yeah, good day
<jcater> um
<jcater> no
<jcater> I'd never unsubscribe you
<jcater> *snicker*
<jcater> you sent as @math, but are subscribed as @gnuenterprise I think
<jamest_> i thought i subscribe under both
<jamest_> for this reason
Action: chillywilly pulls on jamest_'s tail
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<M7U90nt> w0rd
<jamest_> hello
<reinhard> jamest_: could it be that the gnue-contrib repository is fsck'd up somehow?
<reinhard> reinhard@london:~/prj/gnue-contrib$ svn update  
<reinhard> U  web-po/schema/group_members.gsd
<reinhard> A  web-po/schema/po.gsd
<reinhard> A  web-po/schema/user_preferences.gsd
<reinhard> U  web-po/schema/schema.gsd
<reinhard> U  web-po/schema/users.gsd
<reinhard> U  web-po/schema/user_status.gsd
<reinhard> A  web-po/schema/po_status.gsd
<reinhard> D  web-po/schema/PostgreSQL.sql
<reinhard> D  web-po/doc/Design.sxw
<reinhard> U  web-po/src/handlers/Login.py
<reinhard> svn: Checksum mismatch for 'web-po/src/styles/.svn/text-base/default.css.svn-base'; expected: '0eaa236239f42904291f9c19d1917ee1', actual: '58bb6372bd7998746180c0ab34e18fc4'
<jamest_> gee, that's nice
Action: jamest_ goes to beat on svn
<jcater> well
<jcater> when we upgraded subversion on ash
<jcater> we didn't have an svndump
Action: jcater kicks himself
<jcater> (err an svndump of contrib)
<jcater> so we had to reimport the directory tree
<jcater> so you might have to rm -rf
<jcater> then recheck out
<reinhard> ok cool
<jcater> (this is my fault)
<reinhard> so i have to recheck in our project
<jcater> though I'll blame derek if it's ok with everyone else
<reinhard> (probably you didn't notice that johannes committed a gnue-contrib/hotline project)
<jcater> sorry
<jcater> we're getting dumps now
<reinhard> np
<jcater> actually, I hadn't noticed
<jcater> but cool
<jamest_> hotline?
<jamest_> it's not checking out a hotline for me
<M7U90nt> hi jamest, reinhard
<jamest_> ah, did jcater, er i mean derek wipe that out in the upgrade?
<reinhard> jamest_: correct
<jamest_> ouch
<reinhard> but luckily i have a local checkout
<jamest_> can you recommit
<reinhard> yes
<reinhard> will do 
<jamest_> as i just reimported web-po (need new name)
<reinhard> as soon as i'm finished with phoning :)
<jamest_> and lost the history as it isn't critical at this stage
<jamest_> hello M7U90nt, what's up?
<chillywilly> M7U90nt: you're so much cool3r w1th you0r b4 4$$ n1ck
<chillywilly> ;P
<dcmwai> this code is making me sick :(
<M7U90nt> chillywilly,see 4 - Always create cool user id's for yourself.. you will get alot more repect on IRC. from http://packetstormsecurity.org/unix-humor/low-profile.txt : 
<M7U90nt> yeah, I have decided to bite the bullet and get gnue running finally, no more running away from the connections.conf
<jamest_> connections.conf isn't scary
<M7U90nt> jamest your right
<M7U90nt> it is easy
<M7U90nt> but it means i have to think
<M7U90nt> so now, i got my brain back from the cleaners
<M7U90nt> it is running so much better
<jamest_> chillywilly: he's right, which is why I'm jam-est.  
<M7U90nt> the worst thing for new users is making them think or read the configurations
<jamest_> at least the people on xbox live thought that was my nick 
<M7U90nt> gnue is sooo nice, all it needs is some way to run and give instant gratification
<M7U90nt> the more people would use it on the first try.
<jamest_> we need gnueppix
<M7U90nt> at least the lazy stupid ones like me
<M7U90nt> hehe
<M7U90nt> gnueppix! cool idea
<M7U90nt> we thought up some new german knoppixes
<jcater> I bet it wouldn't be hard to do a demo ISO with morphix
<M7U90nt> Kan-nix, Tut-nix, Weiss-nix
<M7U90nt> or even macht-nix
<M7U90nt> jcater, but seriously that would be way kewl
<reinhard> man
<reinhard> this is starting to become a real worm vs. scanners war
<reinhard> first the worms wrote themselves into a zip file to not be scannable
<reinhard> then the scanners scanned zip files
<reinhard> a month ago the worms started to password protect the zip file so the scanners can't find them
<reinhard> and provide the password in the mail text
<reinhard> the scanners must have caught up again
<dcmwai> reinhard, nice Try right :)
<reinhard> because today i got 2 worms in a password protected zip
<dcmwai> reinhard, luckily mailscanner Get it 
<reinhard> where the password was attached as a gif image
<M7U90nt> that is tricky reinhard!
<dcmwai> but something for sure.. zip virus sendmail from the owner not fake owner.
<dcmwai> so you know who give you the gifts :)
<reinhard> dcmwai: you sure
<reinhard> i wouldn't bet on that
<dcmwai> reinhard, YEs...
<dcmwai> reinhard, Get Mailscanner + Clamav + Spamassain + Razor2 ... :)
<dcmwai> for Maximum Email protection (which is not including mail proxy)
<reinhard> dcmwai: sabine (my wife) got a zip worm from me
<reinhard> (which i can't believe because i use evoltuion :))
<reinhard> johannesV even once got a worm with himself being the (faked) sender :)
<dcmwai> ...
<dcmwai> That is interesting..
<dcmwai> Which is not the same as what I know but nvm.. :)
<dcmwai> maybe some spammer is using your email address :) haha
Action: dcmwai hate Spammer...
<reinhard> also we get lots of "mail could not be delivered, contains virus messages" replies sent to info@gnue.org
<reinhard> which means info@gnue.org is used as fake sender address by worms
<dcmwai> oh :)
<reinhard> nobody at all uses info@gnue.org as a sender address
<dcmwai> ok I see.
<dcmwai> but it seem that the outbreak of zip virus is so small ;)
<jcater> I'm getting a lot these days
<dcmwai> compare to all the "fool You "virus I'm gettig today..
<dcmwai> maybe the outbreak is being delay...
<dcmwai>             ./i2GFI8lN028707/your_archive.pif: Infected:   is a security risk or a "backdoor" program [F-Prot]
<dcmwai>             your_archive.pif contains Worm.SomeFool.Gen-1 
<dcmwai> One more virus today :(
<dcmwai> it is the 5x of today :(
<jamest_> reinhard: what is hotline?
<reinhard> it's our toy project
<dcmwai> toy?
<reinhard> enter customer name
<reinhard> select contact person from known contacts of customer
<reinhard> enter problem description
<reinhard> enter your activity
<reinhard> enter status open/waiting/closed
<psu> a sort of "DCL-lite"?
<reinhard> sorta, yes
<dcmwai> haha :) that is a DCl :)
<reinhard> but more customer - oriented
<reinhard> that is
<jamest_> like Symatec ACT?
<reinhard> we import all customer data from our invoice software
Action: jamest_ hasn't touched ACT since the mid 90s so may be mis-remembering it
Action: reinhard has never ever touched ACT :)
<reinhard> and the end-target is to generate a report from which invoices are generated
<reinhard> that is it's not that much after "tracking" in the meaning of "nothing should get forgotten or lost"
<reinhard> but more as a tool to record the time
<reinhard> well i forgot to say
<reinhard> as soon as you pick the customer, the time counter starts
<reinhard> and when you enter the status, it stops
<reinhard> so i can generate invoices at the end of the month
<jbailey> reinhard: Epicor seems to be the current popular commercial choice for that sort of thing.
<psu> Sounds good - significantly diff focus to DCL as you say
<reinhard> well it's really a small toy project
<reinhard> apart from the customer/contact maintenance,
<reinhard> it's a single form and maybe 1 or 2 reports
<psu> I know many legal offices have barcodes on all files - when lawyer picks up file he scans barcode, keeps charging their time until they swipe another file 
<reinhard> and (btw (sorry)) it's all in german
Action: psu wonders if the toilets have their own bar codes on the door
<psu> for "idle time"
<reinhard> psu: lol
<M7U90nt> it looks like the gnue debain packages dont suggest/recommend to install the  python-psycopg module
<psu> M7U90nt: ISTR from long-ago discussions that gnue-common should recomm all the db drivers 
<reinhard> well, the most interesting part about this toy project is of course
<psu> but require none of them 
<reinhard> it uses appserver
<reinhard> that's the reason to *actually* do it
<psu> although gnue-common w/o any d/b drivers at all is a bit pointless
<reinhard> just to "eat my own dog food" as derek would say :)
<reinhard> hmmm .... eat ....
<M7U90nt> psu, well it is just a service to the n000bs
<reinhard> reminds me of something
Action: reinhard is away: eat
<jbailey> M7U90nt: I didn't do it because I don't use postgres, I use mysql.
<M7U90nt> i mean, for all you pro hackers, this is all b0ring
<M7U90nt> jbailey, i mean just recommends, that saves having to search for the driver modules
<psu> Is the CSV driver built into gnue-common? I guess if it is, you *could* use gnue-common w/o a d/b driver
<psu> anyway
<jbailey> M7U90nt: File a wishlist bug.  ajmitch is taking over the package, and can deal with it. =)
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<M7U90nt> jbailey, i can also post a patch....
Action: M7U90nt gets the apt-src
<Dan> Hello. i was wondering if someone could help me troubleshoot and installation problem on Suse 8.2
<Dan> an
<jamest_> Dan: we can try
<M7U90nt> so what other drivers are there? : Recommends: python-gadfly | python-gdbm | python-kinterbasdb | python-mysqldb | python-pgsql | python-popy | python-psycopg | python-pygresql | python-reportlab | python-sqlite | python-sqlrelay| python-tables 
<Dan> Well.  I did as the faq said and I installed egenix-mx-base wxPython PySablot and the GNUe-Common 5.3, but when got to GNUe-Forms 0.5.3, I received an error on install
<jamest_> what's the install error?
<jamest_> and is this from the tarball?
<Dan> it is right after printing /copying samples/zipcode/states.gfd (outut up-to-date)  (This is my third or fourth try)
<Dan> It says /var/tmp/checkinstall.GkjVyA/installscript.sh:  line 16:  1751 Segmentation fault    python setup.py install
<Dan> it's from a tarball
<Dan> the procedure i used was:  python setup.py build
<Dan> su -c "checkinstall python setup.py install"
Action: M7U90nt sent patch 2 common-support@gnuenterprise.org
<jamest_> boing
<jcater> hmm
<jamest_> segmentation fault?
<Dan> yep
<jcater> at one time I had a --skip-tests in form's setup.py
<jcater> but it's not there any more
<jcater> :(
<jcater> I bet it's wxPython segfaulting
<jcater> because there's no X display
<jamest_> so do i
<jamest_> i shows up let
<jamest_> late
<jamest_> what shell you use?
<Dan> yes
<jamest_> you need to unset DISPLAY
<Dan> bash
<Dan> it is set to :0.0 currently
<jamest_> ok, then  "unset DISPLAY" should unset it
<jamest_> that will make it skip the wx test
<Dan> trying it again
<jamest_> i'm seeing wx act this way on debian sid too :(
<Dan> It worked
<jamest_> jcater: --skip-test died with old setup.py structure
<jcater> ah
<Dan> Thanks for the help
Nick change: dsmith -> dsmith|lunch
<jcater> well that sucks
<jcater> I think I used that in doing autoinstalls too
<jamest_> dan, np, i'm worried about things running after install
<Dan> I'll let you know what happens
<Dan> I am real interested in contributing to the project, but I am brand new at this.
<Dan> I have been programming for years, but I have never been involved with a GNU project.
<Dan> Any suggestions on how to get started.  I already read the faq on contributing to GNU software, but it is a bit vague.
<jamest_> Dan: what are your interests?
<Dan> My main interest is in the overall project.  I am not a professional programmer, but I have helped several organizations with databases that essentially do what GNUenterprise will do.
<jamest_> well, with gnue we ask that all contributors assign copyright to the FSF 
<Dan> You mean that anything I code is GPLed.
<jamest_> all of gnue is gpl'd so if you contribute code to the core then yes.  if you create forms with gnue they they IMHO are not.  
<Dan> I am okay with that.
<jamest_> however if you write apps using, say gnue-common, and only use them in house then you are fine keeping them secret
<M7U90nt> j0 gnuenterprise is sooo kewl!
<jamest_> that is my understanding 
<jamest_> where to jump into gnue is a tougher question
<jamest_> parts of gnue are not python newbie friendly
<Dan> That is alright.  I am fine sharing anything and everything I write.  I am only an amateur programmer.  
<M7U90nt> well it is very nice looking and seems to work just fine, once it is setup.
<jamest_> so i guess i'd suggest you find an itch and scratch it
<Dan> Is there anywhere where you are lacking support?
<jcater> docs
<jamest_> end user applications
<jcater> sample apps
<jamest_> docs
<jcater> w00t
<jamest_> lol
<jamest_> we mirror each other
<jcater> he copies me
<jcater> err, I mean
<jcater> we mirror each other
<Dan> I could work on sample applications for sure.   At least until I become more proficient in Python.  I have plenty of experience in other languages, but very little in Python.
<Dan> I see. :)
<M7U90nt> this is like access, but kewler
<Dan> I'll see what I can do to contribute. I have a project right now that might be a good example app.
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<jamest_> sigh
<jamest_> missed him 
<M7U90nt> hey jcater, i wuz just reviewing the code for PropertyEditor::setCurrent, maybe it would be possible to overide this when the pagetexts are all the same to not reset the display. It is a bit of a waste of time to have that reset all the time, bad for the carpals.... what do you think?
<M7U90nt> maybe some type of digest to compare quickly the pages?
<jcater> yeah
<jcater> it's on my wishlist of things to do
<M7U90nt> ok
<M7U90nt> then i leave it with u?
<M7U90nt> I wuz just thinking, if you concat all the strings of the page.getPageText() 2gether
<M7U90nt> then it would be easy to strcmp them
<M7U90nt> and then call reset if needed.
<M7U90nt> like 2 extra lines or so.
<M7U90nt> anyway, I am really impressed with gnue-deziner itz nice!!!
<psu>  M7U90nt: deziner rox our sox!
<jbailey> Doesn't it take more brain power to mistype 'its' than to just type it?
<chillywilly> who cares?
<psu> jbailey: it's entirelt dependant on which its you mean
<jbailey> psu: Well, I'm an audio thinker, so I have to double check my "its"'s usually.  But my spelling is fairly automatic.
<chillywilly> crap
<chillywilly> htf can I take traceback.print_exc and get that output in a string?
<chillywilly> man it's hot in here
<chillywilly> hmmm
<M7U90nt> jbailey, yes it doez take more time to misspel, unless you do it all the time!
<jbailey> chillywilly: It's getting hot in here.
<jbailey> chillywilly: So take off all your clothes.
<chillywilly> why don't you take them off first
<jbailey> I'm at work - and we have a dress code.
<chillywilly> so am I
<chillywilly> putz
<jbailey> I thought you worked at home.
<chillywilly> I think I'll use print_tb with a StringIO object
<chillywilly> not anymore
<chillywilly> I am pwn3d
<jbailey> Ah, fair 'nuff.
<jbailey> Half the fun of working from home is being naked.
<chillywilly> heh
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<chillywilly> why does cStringIO.StringIO not have a write method?
<chillywilly> wtf
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<chillywilly> damn this is annoying
<chillywilly> TypeError: unbound method write() must be called with StringIO instance as first argument (got str instance instead)
<chillywilly> lame
<jcater> ?
<chillywilly> that makes no sense
<jcater> is this a StringIO() instance
<chillywilly> yep
<jcater> or are you calling the StringIO.write function directly
<chillywilly> StringIO.StringIO
<jcater> hmm
<chillywilly> passed it into
<chillywilly> erm
<chillywilly> traceback.print_exc(file=out)
<chillywilly> out = StringIO.StringIO before that
<jcater> ?
<jcater> is that verbatim?
<jcater> as it should be out = StringIO.StringIO()
<chillywilly> doh
<chillywilly> I forgot the parens
<chillywilly> yay
<chillywilly> now it works )
<chillywilly> :)
<chillywilly> cooooooooooooooool
Nick change: dsmith|lunch -> dsmith
<chillywilly> hi
<dsmith> chillywilly: Greets
<jamest_> wow
<jamest_> i feel like derek today
<jamest_> just call me Mr. PR
Action: jamest_ hangs his head in shame
<jamest_> we have any fedora users in here?
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Action: dsmith wears a black fedora
<dsmith> jamest_: But I've never used that linux fedora stuff
<chillywilly> rpm sux0rz
<chillywilly> :)
<jamest_> yes, yes it does
<jamest_> but so does segfaulting on boot trying to get latest win4lin running on debian
<jamest_> after looking at gentoo i decided i still had some sanity left so installed suse and now fedora as it's supported by netraverse
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<jamest_> i just can't get their damn package management to work
<dsmith> Someone had some really nasty things to say about fedora
Action: wendall911 has in the past, maybe not here though
<dsmith> Somethign like all the disadvantages of Debian with all the disadvantages of RedHat.
<wendall911> Fedora === Symlink Hell
<dsmith> esr seems to like it.
<jamest_> all i want is a linux distro netraverse supports
<jamest_> i could go lindows
<jamest_> but debian isn't supported
<jamest_> (go figure)
<wendall911> jamest_: Lindows has apt-get
<jamest_> lindows is debian based
<wendall911> jamest_: would be a trivial thing to change it to Debian ;)
<wendall911> jamest_: who cares what the desktop graphics are
<jamest_> then i imagine i'd be back in segfault hell
<jamest_> i'm trying to avoid fighting these machines any more
<jamest_> they win
<jcater> I wonder if you couldn't just take one of the other kernels?
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<jamest_> fwiw: fedora has apt-get too
<jamest_> just not default
<wendall911> jamest_: I think the Lindows install gui is built on apt-get
<wendall911> jamest_: i just messed around with it at a Linux install fest is all
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<psu>  /LEAVE #gnuenterprise
<jcater> no
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<jcater> we won't let you go
<jcater> darn
<jbailey> You need a digital leash.
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<Sacha> hi everyone
<jamest_> howdy
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<burtj> Greetings, I had some questions about reports, anyone alive?
<jbailey> No.
<jbailey> I shot them all.
<jbailey> MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
<burtj> that's a shame
<jbailey> Well, it's mildly untrue.
<jbailey> Y'see...  I'm Canadian.
<jbailey> We're not allowed guns here.
<jbailey> So I used a crossbow.
<jbailey> And an inuit seal hunting fork.
<burtj> reloading time is a bitch when you're trying to masacre with one of those
<jbailey> Yeah.
<jbailey> And unfortunetly, they're a little big to carry a spare around.
<burtj> indeed
<jbailey> But these GNUe people, they like their Krispy Kremes.
<jbailey> So they move slow.
<burtj> heh
<jbailey> jcater: Thinking of which, the Krispy Kreme in Toronto *delivers*.
<burtj> do you know much about defining reports?  I'm having "difficulties"?
<burtj> er maybe I didn't need a second question mark
<jbailey> None at all.  I'm the resident verbal abuse and Debian support.
<burtj> that works, and I guess the other 20 ppl here are bots
<jamest_> burtj: ignore the canadian
<jamest_> burtj: all that 2nd hand pot smoke makes them loopy
<burtj> no feeding him?
<jbailey> burtj: That may be accurate.  24 people in the chanel.  20 bots, you, me, and two developers.
<jbailey> jamest is one of them. =)
<jbailey> burtj: Feeding me is good, if a little difficult sometimes. =)
<jamest_> burtj: what's up?
<burtj> I'm trying to figure out conditions when defining a report
<jamest_> ok
<jamest_> what are you trying to do
<burtj> specifically, can I define a condition on a child datasource and have it affect the selection on the main
<burtj> ?
<jamest_> what database?
<burtj> mysql
Action: jamest_ goes to look at some code
<burtj> if I was using anything more robust, I would just create a view
<jamest_> the subquery logic is still in gnue-forms not in common :(
<burtj> specifically, I am reporting against dcl.  my primary datasource is workorders, personnel is a child of that, and departments is a child of that.  I want to limit the results to members of a certain department
<burtj> so, I can only define conditions against my main datasource?  I can work around that
<jamest_> actually, i think you can do a natsy here but i don't know about future support
<jamest_> IIRC you can set your table name as table1,table2 in a datasrouce
<burtj> that's ok, we're moving this to Oracle sooner or later
<burtj> how do you define the link between table1, table2?
<jamest_> i don't recall, let me see if I can find something that does it
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<burtj> danke
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<jamest_> i have nothing that does that
<burtj> thanks for checking
<jamest_> this may have been so long ago it was with older datasources :/
<jamest_> maybe jcater has an example as he's the reports master
<burtj> I thought that you used to be able to specify raw sql as a datasource, was that ever true?
<jamest_> datasources took a sql="" tag
<jamest_> let me see if it still has that
<jcater> I think you can just do
<jcater> <datasource table="foo,bar">
<jcater>   <condition>
<burtj> but how do you specify the join column?
<jcater>     <eq><field name="foo.id"/><field name="bar.extid"/>
<jcater>   </condition>
<jcater> </datasource>
<burtj> cool
<jcater> it's something simple like that
<jcater> though I don't have an example in front of me
<burtj> that helps alot though, let me give that a try
<jamest_> sql="" seems to have been removed from the datasource
<jamest_> which is probably for the best :)
<burtj> such is life, I didn't see it in the dtd
<jcater> we're not far from being able to do 
<jcater> <datasource type="sql">
<jcater>   <sql> select foo, bar from table </sql>
<jcater> </datasource>
<jcater> I actually added the base code for that in 0.5.3
<jcater> just need to polish that off
<jcater> of course, that doesn't help burtj for the immediate problem
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<burtj> Is it in CVS, can I play with it?
<jcater> no, not at the actual <datasource> level
<burtj> ok
<jcater> I added it at a higher level
<jcater> that's the next step
<jcater> like I said, doesn't help you much at the moment
<jcater> but for me at work, if I can just wrap some existing complicated SQL statements I have, I can convert my stuff to GNUe Reports faster
<burtj> another question I had while I was here, who is doing the crm stuff?  I've worked as a CRM consultant for several years and I was looking to contribute
<jamest_> um
<chillywilly> nob'dy
<burtj> heh
<jamest_> isn't that in gnue-sb
<chillywilly> he's a real hard worker
<chillywilly> ;P
<jamest_> or was planned
<burtj> sb?
<jamest_> small biz
<jcater> someone was working on crm
<jcater> but I forget who
<jamest_> derek and Vee started gnue-sb iirc
<burtj> it's listed as a package on the site
<jbailey> I thought sb was..  oh wait.  That's s *o* b..
<wendall911> ok, just got two more bug reports related to Fedora
<wendall911> jamest_: Now I'll say Fedora just plain sucks
<jamest_> i can't get to gnu.org
<jamest_> so i can't look at the crm link
<jamest_> i'd venture to say it's idle at the moment
<jamest_> i'm almost to the point I'd like to see gnue-common/appserver based apps w/ as much forms, reports as possible
<jamest_> but custom ui where needed
<jamest_> then we can find the problem areas that reports/forms can't cope with and address them
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<burtj> well sure, but you still need to define the data model and the functionality for the app
<burtj> you being whoever is doing the work on that part
<jamest_> well, i think quite a bit of data model work is sitting there in docbook
Action: jamest_ gave up on trying to get docbook to work so doesn't know for sure
<burtj> ha
<burtj> well, truly doesn't matter one way or another to me, just thought I'd see if help was needed
<jamest_> yes!
<jamest_> always!
<jamest_> we can use the help
<jamest_> I'm bias, I'll admit it
<jamest_> but parts of gnue are really quite impressive IMHO, we lack the manpower, and in some cases the knowledge, to implement good solutions
<jamest_> sigh put a newline in before the IMHO
<burtj> Most of my experience is with dcl, which I know is just recently added to the project, but I am indeed impressed
<wendall911> jamest_: so long as you don't mind rewriting and implementing proper standards as you go, things will work out just fine ;)
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<burtj> jcater: I gave that <field name="foo.id/><field name="bar.extid"/> thing but it appears that field is not supported for mysql, so I tried cfield which doesn't yell at me, but I get no data.  Any thoughts?
<jcater> ah
<jcater> I think cfield was right
<jcater> I would run with a --debug-level 5 option
<jcater> it will show you the actual SQL statement being used
<burtj> cool
<jcater> which will help tremendously in debugging
<burtj> yes, yes it does
<burtj> ok, well, the sql statement works fine in any other environment.  What I am noticing in that I am getting a Master record changed; Notifying Detail Objects after it writes each row.  Could that be causing my lack of data?
<jcater> any chance I can see your .grd?
<burtj> sure, it's just something I threw together to test this multiple table join on one datasource.  it's on a different box, can I mail it to you?
<jcater> jcater at gnue dot org
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<burtj> you got it
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> this report is simple enough
<burtj> hmm is that I said
<jcater> I don't have a database with this stuff here (or mysql)
<burtj> I thought I defined it like the rest I've done, but with that complex datasource definition
<jcater> can you run it again with --debug-level 20 --debug-file /tmp/output.txt
<jcater> and email me that output.txt?
<burtj> I live to
<jamest_> wow
<jamest_> dont' say things like that to jcater
<burtj> ?
<jamest_> he's not used to people being nice to him or doing as he requests, let alone living to do as he requests
<burtj> and it's preferable that he remain unused to it?
<jamest_> you need to start all conversations with him with "sigh, gnue is useless, i can't get it to ....."
<burtj> I find that when I'm begging for help, manners help
<reinhard> burtj: i agree with jamest, you can get some good examples from the current discussion on the mailing list
<reinhard> SCNR
<reinhard> night all
<burtj> night
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<jcater> ah
<jcater> try this
<jcater> <field name="personnel.short"/>  --> change to
<jcater> <field name="short"/>
<burtj> I can't, it's ambiguous
<jcater> sigh, I now remember this
<burtj> I could chose another column, but it would make it quite difficult to create my report as I need these two tables and that column
<jcater> I think it is mysql-specific
Action: jcater is trying to remember a work-around
<burtj> I noticed it converts personnel.short to short, is that causing my problem?
<jcater> yeah
<burtj> and since short is ambiguous, it is flailing?
<jcater> not exactly
<jcater> it's pulling all the records
<jcater> but reports then asks for "personnel.name"
<burtj> yeah, I'm getting all 28 rows, just no data
<jcater> gets back a blank
<jcater> because it's stored as "name"
<jcater> err, name==>short
<jcater> try adding an explicitfields="personnel.short" to the datasource
<jcater> (was that the workaround?)
<jcater> bah, I don't think that'll help
<jcater> as it already knows to grab that
<burtj> what about prequery, does that grab the data all at once?
<jcater> yes
<jcater> but I don't think prequery is useful in reports
<jcater> it's mainly used in forms where you want to pre-populate a table w/o an explicit query
<jcater> but reports always queries
<burtj> well, it's saying the data is changed, possibly cause it's making multiple calls to the db
<burtj> if we can only make one call to the db....
<burtj> I dunno, just looking at the options in the dtd
<burtj> you know, it's funny, my report title doesn't populate either
<jcater> are you running the latest release, or from svn?
<burtj> reports version 0.1.3
<burtj> common version 0.5.2
Nick change: dsmith -> SpoonBoy
Nick change: SpoonBoy -> dsmith
<burtj> spoooooon!!!!!!!
<dsmith> "There is no spoon" http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html 
<dsmith> I just had to laugh at "Spoon Boy"
<burtj> damn, and here I'm thinking there's gonna be spooning going on, got my camera set up and everything
<Sacha> wendall911 looks like the videocard broke :(
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<dneighbo> reinhard should really look at dcl for his hotline stuff its pretty similar
<dneighbo> i think decisions are being made on version we are running and we are like 5 versions behind :)
Nick change: dneighbo -> derek
<derek> jamest: the discussion that is on the list now came from my work on debian non profit list
<derek> we have someone bundling a morphix cd that will run GNU Enterprise already
<derek> just the person that complained on our list
<derek> forced the discussion off of the np list because they didnt want to see GNU Enterprise mentioned there
Action: derek at least think it was something like that
<derek> anyhow i have been working with the debian folks on morphix
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<derek> also note the detractor has a similar product to GNU Enterprise (iirc) called calendula for non profits
<derek> he was one that convinced bkuhn to not use GNU Enterprise solution at FSF 
<derek> iirc
Action: derek has poor memory now a days
<derek> anyhow...
<nickr> 'for non-prefits'?
<derek> yip
<derek> hey nickr 
<nickr> you mean free for noncommercial use or just targeted at non-profit businesses?L
<derek> long time no talk
<derek> um targeted at non-profit
<nickr> ah
<derek> but it wasnt free software at one time
<nickr> oic
<nickr> Free for noncommercial use is insidious non-freeness
<jamest> what detractor?
<jamest> sigh, mr neighbors got away again
<nickr> shifty little devil
<jamest> was he talking about someone on the mail list?
<nickr> this I do not know
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<jamest> so derek was rambling randomly again eh?
<nickr> indeed
<jamest> poor man, too bad he doesn't have friends that would make sure to get him the help he needs
<jamest> hey burtj
<burtj> ello again
<chillywilly> HEH
Action: chillywilly smacks derek around some
<chillywilly> he has the shortest IRC attention span I ever saw in my life
<jamest> i think it has something to do with having, what now, 35 kids
<jamest> it's hard to type with dirty diapers in both hands
<chillywilly> lol
<derek> im here
<chillywilly> yea 20 mins later
<derek> got called to dinner (and you all know i dont miss meals)
<derek> yes someone from the mail list that pointed out GNU Enterprise was dead
<jamest> last one to the table gets the scraps
<derek> sorry for the delay in pointing that out.. .been busy at work
<jamest> i think several issues they raised are valid
<derek> tomorrow the top management will be lobbying for final approval of free (as in libre) budget system
<chillywilly> what is the FSF using?
<derek> nothing
<derek> emacs and flat files (or they were)
<chillywilly> gee.....
<derek> jamest: yes most of the points had validity
<chillywilly> that's highly technological of them
<derek> gnue-sb was supposed to be a quick and dirty application to show off gnuE
<derek> i am disappointed it didnt get more love our buy in
Nick change: burtj -> IdleBob
<derek> i am excited highly about your web-po except that it only uses really one component of the system
Nick change: IdleBob -> PopeBob
<PopeBob> damned scripts
<jamest> ?
<derek> which is still killer, but sadly re-enforces the major gripe that people bring about GNU Enterprise over and over
<jamest> i'm using gnue anywhere I can
<jamest> gnue-schema
<derek> that the toolset as a whole is not mature enough to do anything useful :(
<jamest> gnue-reports
<jamest> gnue-common
Action: derek disagrees with that philosophy, but that unfortunately is how it will be viewed
<PopeBob> brb
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<jamest> the only things not used at this time are forms/appserver
<derek> yes but we dont have gnue-forms -u html
<derek> which is a major sticking piont
<derek> er point
<derek> as to date the official position was web apps suck so not high priority
<jamest> i'm ok with that though
<derek> not web app is demanded and we are going out side system for that
<jamest> as what I'm learning about mod_python may be applied to a -u html
Action: derek will likely have to do same thing (so im not criticizing like that)
<derek> just pointing out people will use it to say forms is worthless for them
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<derek> i think in many ways it proves the power of the other tools
<derek> i.e. that they are not dependent on each other :)
<derek> im hoping to have 4 FTE's at work to start a major application
<derek> i will use GNU Enterprise if i can
<derek> this record will be ON THE RECORD as well
<derek> i.e. it will be approved by the county administrator and they WANT to share
<derek> so they WANT people to know they are using free software :)
<jamest> then may i make a suggestion
<chillywilly> FTE's?
<jamest> full time employees
<jamest> don't push forms as the only UI option
<jamest> or reports as the only reporting option
<jamest> they are great tools but not a perfect fit for everything
<jamest> i'd rather see common in use, or appserver, or whatever with custom uis and reports where our tools break down
<jamest> as then we have new targets to strive for in the tools
<jamest> (to replace the custom UIs)
<jamest> gnue-common is a great devel start point for lots of apps 
<derek> brb 5 min
<derek> have to get info for youth bulletin to one of my youth so they can make vi
<derek> video announcements tonight
<chillywilly> the only thing I am insterested in using is the db abstraction in common
<derek> jamest: part of me thinks forms might work (gtk2 version)
<jamest> why's that
<derek> we a clean grid
<derek> er native grid
<jamest> gtk2 is broken last i knew
<derek> but yes i hope to use at least gnue-common
<derek> then appserver
<derek> then reports
<derek> then forms
<derek> i.e. i hope to use gnue-common at all costs
<derek> if i can get appserver usable great
<SachaS> night
<jamest> nite
<derek> ok back
<derek> anyhow i will do what i can
<derek> also ldc wants to do applications we were thinking of extending appserver (then reinhard and co stepped up so we might have to do some of the work we thought)
<derek> and then use custom gtk2 interface
<derek> sadly while i am not in love with gtk2
<derek> it is now very easy to make work on windows
<derek> and looks better and performs better than wx
<derek> qt is similar but has jacked licensing on winders :(
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<derek> wrt to PR
<derek> i keep thinking if only we could make GNUe so add inches to ones penis
<derek> we would be golden
<jamest> but
<jamest> bu
<jamest> but
<jamest> how would we ever test it?  where would we find someone with a small penis that could test it?
<derek> we do all testing on goats
Action: derek can see it now.... "holy crap, that goat has an 18" rod! what the ???"
<derek> oh yeah he is a GNUe beta tester
<derek> btw: i did start a blog for GNU Enterprise
<derek> i think it might be worth using (seriously)
<derek> if each developer took 5 min to jot down what they had done towards gnuE on a day they worked on it
<derek> it would be a huge step up in communication
<derek> it is interesting to see evolution and other projects do this
<derek> as the developers are very realistic w/ frustrations and issues
<derek> it is just hard because irc is so much easier :)
<chillywilly> real time complaining is better
<derek> but for example i didnt realize jcater was doing web site overhaul as i have been away for several weeks
<chillywilly> :P
<derek> chillywilly: i agree 100% with that
<jamest> a blog?
<jamest> where?
<chillywilly> derek: read the freallin' commit list
<derek> also it could easily integrate into next gen website
<derek> chillywilly: that is how i found out
<derek> http://www.livejournal.com/community/gnue/
<derek> hahah in looking back
<derek> i stated what the mail list confirmed back on feb 18th :)
<jamest> that's cool
<jamest> as we blame you for it anyway
<chillywilly> bloggin....I am just not into that stuff
<chillywilly> I want my thoughts to remain mine :)
<jamest> but you already knew that
<jamest> chillywilly: i agree
<derek> chillywilly: unfortunately currently that is the problem
<derek> the thoughts are in the heads of too few
<derek> and since people cant see those they think there is nothing going on
<jamest> i want your penquin tainted thoughts to remain yours
<derek> i figured a blog that was specific to the project (not personal lives) might have a chance
Action: chillywilly stares at jamest and burn holes into his brain
<derek> it might die a radical death 
<derek> who knows
<derek> i figured i would try
<jamest> maybe blogging would work
<jamest> i dunno
<derek> i attempted a wiki on ash, but cgi was giving me very little love
<derek> i saw that as USER generated documentation though
<jamest> there is/was a wiki on ash
<jamest> for a test case
<chillywilly> wiki wiki
<jamest> i'm happy to report however that the postgresql update on ash pretty much trashed everything
<chillywilly> w00t
<jamest> so I'm sure nothing dependent upon postgresql functions anymore
<chillywilly> mmmm
<chillywilly> I smell somethign good cookin'
Action: chillywilly goes to investigate
<chillywilly> makign beer bread
<chillywilly> and I don't get any
<chillywilly> bastids
<jamest> argh!
<chillywilly> beer bread is the shiznit
<jamest> i need a name for this web thing
<jamest> it's driving me nuts
<chillywilly> "web thang"
<chillywilly> wang for short ;)
<chillywilly> heehe
Action: jamest thwaps chillywilly
<derek> so dcl thrashed?
<chillywilly> "hey did you see ym release my wang?"
<derek> do we have a recovery plan?
<chillywilly> s/ym/me/
<jamest> i think we're toast wrt to the db
<jamest> it was a fscking .deb based install
<derek> no back up of data?
<chillywilly> oh well
<chillywilly> I try to be funny
<chillywilly> really I do
Action: derek still has not had problems with deb based installs
<derek> i thought i did the other day as it h0rked hard
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Action: chillywilly unpacks the wang and "installs" it
<derek> but created a file that told me exactly what needed to be fixed
<derek> basically i had to kill my pg_hba.conf file
<derek> and then dpkg-reconfigure postgresql
<derek> and it self healed itself completely
<chillywilly> erm
<jamest> i've had 100% success with it destroying itself 
<derek> i was then able to do a diff of my pg_hba.conf and the one created and viola was back up and live
<jamest> never seen one complete
<chillywilly> jamest: did you have automagic upgrades enabled?
<derek> but always i pg_dumpall the thing :)
<jamest> ah
<derek> just in case
<jamest> pg_dumpall won't work on ash
<jamest> dcl used large objects
<jamest> pg_dumpall can't cope w/ that
<derek> ?
<derek> what
<chillywilly> automagic upgrades suck
<derek> i didnt htink it did for anything
<jamest> which IIRC was the start of the downfall
<derek> all files were stored as reference
<derek> well if we lost it i wont be devestated
<derek> as i will install 0.9.4 instead
<jamest> though honestly as outdated as some of the bugs in dcl were
<derek> as it is much nicer
<jamest> we would be better off w/ a fresh start
<derek> and we can start fresh
<chillywilly> why not just use a BUGS file ;)
<jamest> whatever gets used i want it simple
<jamest> use something with small words
<derek> ?
<derek> chillywilly: a BUGS file is NOT sufficient imho
<derek> we need something searchable
<burtj> grep?
<derek> and able to have comments and ability to track
<chillywilly> hehe
<chillywilly> but you could copt the current buigs outt dcl into a BUGS file
<chillywilly> bugs out of
<derek> if we want gnuE to have greater adoption we need to be able to track bugs and such much much much better
<derek> i would rather generate the BUGS file from DCL
<chillywilly> actually you could just run a query
<derek> anyhow
<chillywilly> and pull all the info out and then parse it
<derek> it has never been a huge issue yet
<chillywilly> and stick it back into a new dcl
<chillywilly> freak
<derek> as the number of production installs of non developers is small
<chillywilly> and the BUGS file was a joke
Action: chillywilly smacks derek 
<burtj> I have a production install
<derek> it is when we get non developers using en masse that its important
<derek> so i would rather be ahead of the game :)
<derek> burtj: sweet
<jamest> is dcl a bug tracker?
<jamest> i though it was a job tracker?
<chillywilly> it's project management
<burtj> both
<chillywilly> it has a ticketing system
<chillywilly> which can be used for bug reports
<burtj> it works the same way as peoplesoft defect
<chillywilly> on "products" or "projects"
Action: jamest combined those lines visually
<burtj> I just built some auto workflow into mine
<jamest> saw defects on people or projects
<burtj> closing tickets when the related work orders close, etc.\
<chillywilly> jamest: haha
<burtj> heh
<jamest> um
<jamest> argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<burtj> ?
<derek> jamest: it really should be the best of BOTH
<jamest> most of the last few nights web-po changes are gone
<derek> it has "ticketing" which falls under the bug category
<derek> BUT
<jamest> well, actually, most the last weeks
<derek> then you can promote BUGs into Work Orders which are ways for developers to project work
<derek> all features would come in as work order requests
<derek> way i am think of it is that "versioned releases" would be "projects"
<derek> then new features are work orders
<derek> and you assign them to the "project" (ie release which they need to be delivered)
<burtj> really, we ticket everything and only promote things to work orders after they've been approved
<derek> you can also assign tickets (bugs) to projects (releases) as well
<derek> this way our "project" report would be a version roadmap
<chillywilly> jamest: how'd you do that?
<derek> burtj yes that is the idea
<jamest> this sounds very complex
<derek> jamest it is very simple (compared to say bugzilla)
<burtj> you just need defined biz processes
<derek> but we will NEED it as we grow
<chillywilly> it is compilicated
<chillywilly> DCL has virtually no docs
<burtj> it's complex if it's anarchy
<derek> i am hoping the developers don't have to do a ton with it other than use it daily
<burtj> we're developing a knowledge base for it
<chillywilly> there's one doc where mdean explains how he uses it
<burtj> internally
<derek> i.e. hopefully we can discuss what we want in different versions then a "project manager" type can go create the work orders
<chillywilly> so then you have to sorta take that into account and figure out hwo to adapt it
<derek> and projects
<derek> and the developers just hit the crap in their inbox
<derek> i realize there is little buy in now
<derek> but eventually with someone getting time to "administer" it
<derek> i think you will see the value
<derek> for example the stuff at the county i want to do, it will be a HUGE feature sell to give visibility 
<derek> as one thing big companies hate about free software is the "lack of support"
<derek> that is cause they see no company
<burtj> y'all need someone to do that?  I can administer it
<derek> if they can see that a band of disparate hackers are more organized than a company
<derek> in handling support requests and feature plans
<derek> its over.. :)
<jamest> burtj: that would help sell me on it
<derek> #1 reason we are leaving current vendor is crap support
<jamest> the issue with the old one was 
<derek> and no feature maps of the product
<jamest>   1) it was packed with spam
<burtj> we've been running the university on it for a couple of months now
<derek> jmaest: and we will turn the email gateway off :)
<jamest>   2) it was packed with spam
<jamest>   3) out of all the mails in it, most were spam
<derek> i cleaned out all the spam and reassigned things recently
<derek> and there were a LOT of real bug filings
<derek> seriously
<jamest>   4) I could never remeber my damn password
<jamest> =)
<chillywilly> heh
<chillywilly> yet another web account
<chillywilly> YAWA
<chillywilly> :P
<jamest> derek: were any of those bugs against recent releases?
<chillywilly> the only person who is going to know if bugs are fixed or not is the developr though...so how does having some other person to "manage" it help?
<derek> crap i have a board meeting for soccer be back in a few hours
<derek> jamest: yes i thtink so
<jamest> chillywilly: it's one less thing for the developers to keep running 
<jamest> if it runs on ash there are only a few people that maintain it
<jamest> which sucks
<burtj> chillywilly: to ensure it's running, make mods, maybe even keep track of aging requests
<jamest> gack!
<jamest> you mean you'll harrass us when the requests start getting old?
<chillywilly> dcl still sucks
<burtj> no, I was more referring to checking to see if it's been done by testing the product
<burtj> closing stuff the developer forgot to
<jamest> ooooooo
<jamest> well, now, that's ok
<burtj> heh
<burtj> I'm not volunteering to be yer mom
<jamest> good
<chillywilly> that's derek's job ;)
<jamest> exactly
<burtj> is it ok to call derek mom?
<jamest> good thing he's a bad mother too
<chillywilly> yea
<chillywilly> he neglects his children
<jamest> always running off to his parties, leaving us all alone to gnue
<chillywilly> bastid
<jamest> dude, that's our mom
<chillywilly> sorry
<jamest> bitch would seem more appropriate a name to use
<chillywilly> ho
<burtj> damn, was typing that
<chillywilly> she's a ho
<chillywilly> anyhooters
<chillywilly> need caffiene
<jcater> lol
<jcater> came in on the tail end of this conversation
<jcater> and like it already 
<burtj> hey there boss
<jcater> I have absolutely *zero* interest in programming w/gtk2 fwiw
<jamest> :)
<chillywilly> uh?
Action: jcater scrolled up
Action: chillywilly waves his Gnome desktop around
<chillywilly> la la allal al laaaaaaaaa!
<jcater> and read stuff about gtk2
<chillywilly> yea yea
<jamest> derek using at work
<chillywilly> you kde/qt biggot
<jcater> not biggot
<jcater> just biased
<chillywilly> yea, biggot
<burtj> heh
<jcater> if I'm going ot have to learn another toolkit
<jcater> I don't want to learn one that's not gonna benefit me personally
<jcater> burtj: I committed what I think is a fix to our svn
<jcater> but I can't make it work with the old release
<burtj> so, I need the new release?
<chillywilly> probably HEAD
<burtj> well, I always need head
<burtj> but that's not a conversation for here
<chillywilly> holy crap
<chillywilly> haven't checked mail in ages
<jcater> twiki is on ash fwiw
<jamest> yeah i pointed that out
<jcater> burtj: hmm, well, better address that with someone else
<jcater> :)
<jamest> mom!
<jamest>  /msg chillywilly you did say she's a ho right?
<chillywilly> HEH
<chillywilly> you know what pisses me off?
<burtj> midgets?
<jcater> sheep?
<chillywilly> you create mailing lists for people and they are too lame to use them
<burtj> salmon colored cop cars?
<burtj> oh
<chillywilly> goats of course!
<chillywilly> geez
<chillywilly> this is #gnue
<jamest> midgets in salmon colored cop cars chasing cheep?
Action: burtj 's blood boils
<chillywilly> you all suck
<chillywilly> a LOT
<chillywilly> anyone ever configure mod_throttle ;P
<jamest> no
<chillywilly> liar
<burtj> jcater: I'll give that a try in the morning, I'll let you know how it works
<jcater> ok
<burtj> been up for twenty hours, too tired to do more tonight
<burtj> good to meet y'all
<jamest> nite
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<jcater> fwiw
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/demo/project/search.php
<jcater> www.gnuenterprise.org has searching now
<jcater> (of website, irc-logs, and mailing lists)
<jcater> (ignore the gawd-awful icons that came with htdig... I'm replacing those)
<chillywilly> oh great
<chillywilly> I am in that paper
<chillywilly> greeeeat
<chillywilly> :(
Action: chillywilly was jsut now reading gnue lists and found out he was in the case study thing-a-ma-jigger
<chillywilly> whtf was up with that guy ;)
<chillywilly> he's nuts
<jamest> i didn't read it
<chillywilly> well lets just say there's some things I regret doing...
<jamest> url?
<chillywilly> http://www.ics.uci.edu/%7Ewscacchi/Papers/New/Elliott-Scacchi-GROUP03.pdf
<chillywilly> I am in that thing
<chillywilly> :-/
<chillywilly> man...I had issues back then
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<DanielJ> Good evening.  I am having a problem running GNUe-Designer, I was wondering if anyone could help me troubleshoot.
<chillywilly> I'd just like to make a public apology...I think I was on drugs or something
<jamest> sure
<jamest> DanielJ: sure
<jamest> chillywilly: 3 days lol
<DanielJ> I was on here earlier (As Daniel)
<chillywilly> jamest: 3 days?
<DanielJ> I got everything installed fine, but now that i am running designer, it gives me a Segmentation Fault on initialization
<DanielJ> It crashes on creating user interface
<DanielJ> I am running SUSE Linux 8.2 with a mysql database.
<jamest> it was doing this during the install too right?
<jamest> and we unset the DISPLAY
<DanielJ> Correct
<jamest> what version of wxPython is installed
<chillywilly> *sigh*
<DanielJ> unsetting display again didn't help
<jamest> you have to have that now
<DanielJ> in fact.  it cause more problems.
<jamest> yes
<jamest> without display set no X apps will launch from that shell
<DanielJ> wxPython 2.4.2.4
<DanielJ> gotcha.
<jamest> ok, that's the exact same version I'm running
<jamest> is this designer 0.5.3 or from svn?
<DanielJ> 0.5.3
<DanielJ> I figured a stable version would be best to start with
<jcater> is anything displayed at all before the segfault?
<DanielJ> Erm, I don't yet support pulldown toolbar buttons  (LayoutEditor:FocusOrder)   is in the terminal
<jcater> but nothing visual yet?
<jamest> that's normal :)
<DanielJ> In X, it says Creating User Interface
<jcater> hmmm
<jamest> i wonder if any gnue x app works
<DanielJ> A splashscreen displays with said text and then a small window begins to open in the lower right corner of the screen and then I get the error
<jcater> have you ever run an older version of designer on this account?
<DanielJ> no
<DanielJ> It is a brand new install
<jamest> do you have a gnue-forms/samples directory
<DanielJ> Yes
<jamest> i assume we put that in the tarball
<jamest> does
<jamest> uh oh
<jamest> does 
<jamest> gnue-forms intro/intro.gfd 
<jamest> work?
<jamest> i'm getting a nasty traceback here!!!!!
<wendall911> jamest: i'll test
<DanielJ> yes. It works
<jamest> ok, so wx is sane
<DanielJ> Yes
<wendall911> jamest: works fine for me under Gentoo
<jamest> i had old copy, my bad
<jcater> rm ~/.gnue/gnue-des.ini
<jcater> and try again
<jcater> maybe something in there got corrupted
<DanielJ> There is no gnue-des.ini
<DanielJ> Would that be a problem?
<jcater> no
<jcater> that just saves your window settings when you close designer
<DanielJ> understood
<jamest> i'd be curious what a 
<jamest> gnue-designer --debug-level=10
<jamest> shows
<jamest> er, um, ignore any references to how the fsck did I get here :)
<DanielJ> The last event is DB002:  [Docker:730] Adding tool Trigger Editor [triggerEditor]
<jcater> hmmm
<jamest> wow
<jcater> is your wxPython from source
<jcater> or from a suse package?
<DanielJ> Data source editor is the last window displayed (only partially)
<DanielJ> wxPython source
<DanielJ> I believe.  I have one from Suse and one from source
<DanielJ> I followed the faq
<DanielJ> How-to
<DanielJ> Nix that -- its just the source package
<jcater> hmm
<jcater> where do you have gnue installed into?
<jcater> /usr/local/gnue ?
<DanielJ> yes
<jcater> can you add this to your /usr/local/gnue/etc/gnue.conf file under [designer]
<DanielJ> I didn't change the directory
<jcater> ForceSimpleEditor=yes
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<jcater> daniel, I saw jax.centurytel.net earlier... is that Jacksonville FL, or Jackson, MS?
<jcater> (or another)
<DanielJ> Jacksonville, Arkansas
<jcater> ah
<DanielJ> I am just outside of Little Rock.
<DanielJ> (Just north of the USAF base)
<jcater> I'm just outside of Memphis
<jcater> I don't see many centurytel.net ppl here
<DanielJ> Cool.
<DanielJ> I am not centurytel by choice, I am just so far out in the stix, its the only option.
<jcater> yeah
<DanielJ> Where outside of Memphis are you?
<jcater> Olive Branch, MS
<DanielJ> (It keeps on crashing after I added that line)
<jcater> hmm
[21:20] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
<DanielJ> On the northern border of the state
<jamest> can you get a suse package for wxpython
<DanielJ> Would that be more desirable?
<jamest> and is the version of python wx is compiled for the same version as you're running designer under
<jamest> iirc it gives a warning on startup if not
<DanielJ> iirc?
<jamest> if i recall correctly
<jcater> jamest: that's only a very recent version
<chillywilly>                                       
<jcater> I think it was that version though
<chillywilly> http://shfs.sourceforge.net/
<chillywilly> doh
<chillywilly> that looks sweet
<DanielJ> As far as I can tell, Suse doesn't have a version.
<DanielJ> On a side note, why is debian the preferred distrubition for the project developers
<jcater> coincidence that we all use it
<chillywilly> me too
<chillywilly> :)
<jamest> i beat those that dont
<chillywilly> lol
<chillywilly> be nice now ;)
<jamest> er, um, it's a coincidence that we all use it
<chillywilly> yea a *coiincidence*
<chillywilly> or something
<chillywilly> apt is really a great package manager
<chillywilly> there's a zillion packages
<jamest> DanielJ: we're grasping at straws here
<jamest> on the segfault issue
<jcater> http://wxpython.org/download.php#binaries
<DanielJ> ok
<jcater> will those RPMs not work on suse?
<jamest> but I seem to recall on the source installs of wx
<chillywilly> and not ever having to go to rpmfind.net makes me infinitely happy
<DanielJ> (I am asking b/c I am not completely satisfied with SUSE
<jcater> we love debian
<chillywilly> it's highly upgradable
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<jamest> that there were some optional modules that get compiled in
<DanielJ> I have some more information that might help you too.
<chillywilly> it's built by the community
<jcater> some people rightfully complain about being frustrated installing debian
<jcater> but once installed
<jamest> iirc i had major issues on solaris with those issues
<jcater> you never have to do it again
<jamest> wx issues, not debian
<jamest> what I love about debian is it's ease of maintaining larger number of boxes
<chillywilly> teh newest installer is a lot better, imho
<jcater> chillywilly: yeah
<chillywilly> but there's one wrinkle with selecting apt sources
<DanielJ> Another event displayed on debug level 10 is:    DB003:  [EventController:102] Unknown Event: MakeClean
<chillywilly> you have to cancel out of it and then go to the next step manually
<chillywilly> which kinda sucks
<chillywilly> unless I have been doing something wrong
<chillywilly> other than that it sorta flows...except disk partitioning...you have to use cfdisk which doesn't bother me but other people want some sorta partitioning scheme picked for them...or so I have been told by others
<jamest> that was the one thing i noticed about the new installer that I thought was unfriendsly
<jamest> didn't have any other issues w/ it
<jamest> DanielJ: anyway, i'd be tempted to give those rpms a try
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<DanielJ> Would error messages about wx.widgets.box.pyc not appearing to be a valid ui widget be normal?
<jamest> if that doesn't work I'd try to build wxpython making sure those extra things are shut off in the configure/makefill
<jamest> um, that seems odd
<DanielJ> in fact, there are 8 such messages about box, button, entry, image, label, page and scrollbar
<jamest> ah, no
<jamest> those are ok
<DanielJ> And a few messages saying How the fsck did I get here?
<jamest> yeah, um, ignore those too :)
<DanielJ> ok. :)
<DanielJ> so a   DB005: [UIdriver:164] wx.widgets.button.pyc doesn't appear to be a valid ui widget    is ok?
<jamest> yes
<jamest> designer uses forms UI widgets but does unholy things with them
<DanielJ> Understood. :)   
<jamest> i wonder if the python debugger would catch that segfault
<jamest> gnue-designer --interactive-debugger
<DanielJ> will do.  Are those two parameters, python specific or additional functionality in GNUe?
<DanielJ> (the other being --debug-level=10)
<jamest> those are gnue-common app specific
<jamest> they are based upon python modules though
<DanielJ> ok.  No.  --interactive-debugger didn't give me any additional options or output
<jamest> we just make them a bit simpler to use via our base frameowrk
<jamest> dropped you back to the shell again?
<DanielJ> yes
<jamest> sigh
<DanielJ> So even though Forms works, you still think it may be a wxPython problem?
<jamest> I'm guessing 95% of our segfault issues are wx releated
<jamest> if not 100%
<DanielJ> So i should uninstall wxPython and then reinstall an rpm version?
<jamest> if you don't mind trying that
<DanielJ> certainly
<DanielJ> Will i need to reconfigure the GNUe applications afterwords?
<jamest> i don't believe so
<jamest> as long as you can do
<jamest> python
<DanielJ> I am giving it a try
<jamest> import wx
<jamest> then we should be fine
<DanielJ> So you want me to write a quick python program?
<jamest> nah
<DanielJ> what do you mean by import wx then?
<jamest> if you can import wx from python then our tools will be fine
<DanielJ> nope.  I tried it from the command line editor -- you were right .. it failed.
<DanielJ> With a Segmentation fault
<jamest> you mean 
<jamest> python
<jamest> import wx
<jamest> failed?
<DanielJ> yes
<jamest> is this with the rpms?
<DanielJ> No.  This is with source
<jamest> ah, i bet it's one of those damn extra modules
<jamest> i switched my last solaris box off over a year ago so I don't recall the details
<DanielJ> I am looking at my Yast2 package list now -- this will sound naive -- but should there be a build Package and a wxPython package both installed?
<jamest> i don't know anything about suse packaging
<jamest> wxWindows is a C++ lib
<jamest> wxPython is a wrapper for python to that lib
<DanielJ> I knew it was long shot, but I had to ask
<jamest> so you'd need both those
<jamest> while we wait for the rpms to install i'll mention my #1 gripe with debian
<jamest> debian comes in 3 flavors (stable, testing, unstable)
<jamest> which translates to
<jamest> stable: rock solid but long periods between release
<jamest> testing: all the bugs of unstable with a 2 week window before fixes migrate in
<jamest> unstable: usable most the time, usually pretty cutting edge
<DanielJ> How is that bad?
<jamest> i love the stability of stable but the long wait times between releases have forced me to resort to mutant boxes 
<DanielJ> Isn't that pretty standard?
<jamest> the last major stable release was released 8/2002 iirc
<DanielJ> So you prefer not to have to install any software not in the release?
<jamest> and been been in a semi frozen state for almost a year before that
<jamest> i prefer to not build from source 
<wendall911> stable Debian is mostly useful if your software doesn't need to conform to newer specs, but will run well
<jamest> wendall911: exactly
<jamest> it's a wonderfull distro
<jamest> however woody (last stable) was a little outdated at release time iirc
<wendall911> for new software that you mostly compile from sources, Gentoo is the best choice imo
<jamest> and my users needed features, updates only available in newer systems
<jamest> gentoo is for the insane
<jamest> or people with only a few boxes :)
<wendall911> I run it on 6 systems, fastest is a dual PII| 700
<DanielJ> So you are an administrator of a fairly large network?
<wendall911> jamest: called distcc ;)
<jamest> not that large
<jamest> i'm running about 35 debian boxes not including my ltsp install
<jamest> or servers
<jamest> our department is over 50% linux on the desktop
<wendall911> jamest: I manage my own personal network, otherwise, I'd be running Deb for sure
<DanielJ> Wow.  That is awesome, how did you manage that?
<DanielJ> (to convince your company to run 50% linux)
<jcater> I'm at 80% or so
<jcater> fwiw
<jcater> thanks to LTSP :)
<jamest> i work for mathematics dept at a local university
<DanielJ> That makes sense
<wendall911> I'm at 100% :)
<DanielJ> I run 50% (at home. :) )
<jamest> i have a local compnay here in town with a ltsp setup too
<wendall911> however, I do need a windows box to test, just never can bring myself to install it
<DanielJ> Unfortunately, Uncle Sam is choosing to support Microsoft for the moment.  (The hammers from them cost more)
<DanielJ> I use linux only at home.
<jamest> they are almost 100% linux with the exception being 1 accounting computer running dos app, and one app they can only get on a windows box
<jamest> what rocks there is I have them setup witn winvnc 
<jamest> so for that 1 app they only need occasionally they use krdc (kde remote desktop client) to access that windows box
<wendall911> jamest: I'm running photoshop 7 under native wine now...got my graphic artists using it now, that was the only need for windows before
<jamest> and message each other via jabber to tell each other when it's in use
<wendall911> that's way cool
<jamest> an approx ~20 person call center hopping on and off 1 winxp box all day :)
<jamest> wendall911: you have graphics artists?
<jamest> what do you do?
<wendall911> multimedia development
<jamest>  /msg jcater grab the shackels, we may have someone that can create icons
<wendall911> ranges from website solutions to cdrom
<wendall911> jamest: yeah, I've been using Inkscape lately...fork of Sodipodi
<wendall911> very, very nice
<wendall911> however, I'm messing with gimp 2.0 and still feel like I have to use photoshop
<jamest> i can understand that
<wendall911> I'd be into doing some icons for you guys at some point
<jamest> cool
<jamest> i was just giving you crap though :)
<jamest> but our icons do suck as they don't convey data well
<jamest> DanielJ: any luck on that rpm?
<DanielJ> working
<wendall911> jamest: I am going to do a portage script for Gentoo as well
<DanielJ> My internet connection was kind of slow there.
<DanielJ> Just finished the download
<wendall911> jamest: just been busy is all...and I want to be able to commit to maintaining it
<wendall911> jamest: have it running on a test box right now...reinhard wanted me to see if it ran fine...runs perfect :)
<jamest> cool
<jcater> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/twiki/ is working now
<jcater> if anyone wants to play
Action: jcater hasn't skinned it yet to match the main site, though
<jcater> bbiab
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<DanielJ> I just found a python-wxGTK version installed by SUSE 8.2
<DanielJ> never mind.  My brain is going to mush
<DanielJ> Why does everything seem to work better when compiled from source???
<DanielJ> Everything I install using Yast2 causes problems.
<DanielJ> You should have seen the trouble I had with mysql because Yast2 set the permissions all wrong
<DanielJ> Designer works now
<jamest> one thing worth noting
<DanielJ> I had to uninstall the python-wxGTK version that came with SUSE 8.2 and install a new version
<jamest> when using the property editor on the left
<jamest> when you change a value hit <tab> to make it take
<jamest> not <enter>
<DanielJ> ok
<jamest> enter == segfault
<jamest> my test victim pointed that out to me a week or so ago :)
<DanielJ> roger
<DanielJ> So how does the project organization work.  Are you and jcater leaders on these project?
<DanielJ> this
<jamest> well, on paper derek and I are co-maintainers of the project
<jamest> but in reality it's based on who does the work
<DanielJ> That makes sense.   So the corporate sponsers that you have, are they major contributors/
<DanielJ> ?
<jamest> lots of people contribute, then lurk, then contribute some more, including myself
<jamest> at times yes
<jamest> right now reinhard's company is putting in a fair bit of work on appserver and common
<jamest> we've had companies in the past put a lot in to i18n work
<wendall911> jamest: we're working on our i18n stuff right now, it isn't a cakewalk
<wendall911> cool that you got some help
<DanielJ> How long do you think it will take for the project to proceed out of the beta stage?
<wendall911> 8 more years for Debian stable at least ;)
<jamest> DanielJ: which part?
<DanielJ> Reports, Forms, Common and AppServer  (Forgive me for my ignorance, but they seem connected)
<DanielJ> From my understanding, Forms and Report are the Input and Output control and AppServer is the business logic that glues them together, correct?
<jamest> thats a hard call
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<jamest> for the most part common is solid today
<jamest> we do major work on it but a fair bit is transparent to the end apps
<jamest> i have no issues using common, forms, reports daily
<jamest> but are they feature complete? no
<jamest> i'd love to say "in 1 year they will be complete"
<jamest> but so much is based upon the free time for the developers and their needs
<jamest> i know that's a crappy answer
<jamest> but at least it's honest :)
<DanielJ> Actually, it was more helpful than you think.   It is one of those amorphous questions.
<jamest> i need to leave, wife's orders
<DanielJ> One of the first things I notice about Designer is that the interface feels cramped.   Is that just my monitor settings or is there some truth to that?
<jamest> i'd agree
<DanielJ> ok.  Well, thanks for your help and it was good talking with you.  I love what I have seen so far and I want to let you know that I appreciate your project
<jamest> you can drag the layout area bigger but the lines to do so are hidden
<jamest> we hope you find it usefull
<jamest> and will try and help out when we can
<jamest> see you guys tomorrow
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<DanielJ> Goodnight all.
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<derek> jcater is twiki python based?
<derek> btw: this could be very interesting : http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins/IrcLogPlugin
<derek> jcater: you there?
<chillywilly> I believe it is written in the evil perl
<chillywilly> moin moin may be python
<chillywilly> yea, twiki is perl
<jcater> yo
<jcater> not here but for 15 minutes or so
<chillywilly> http://shfs.sourceforge.net/install.html <-- I am gonna play with this
<chillywilly> :P
<chillywilly> erm, chop off that install part
<jcater> cool
<chillywilly> to see the main page and blurb about what it is
--- Wed Mar 17 2004