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<johannesV> good morning guys
<johannesV> svn seems to be broken again ?
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<SachaS_> hi everyone
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<btami> hi SachaS_
<SachaS> hi btami
<SachaS> hallo johannesV
<johannesV> hi SachaS
<SachaS> i did send an email to gnue-dev last night. it did not get through yet
<SachaS> hi johannesV. yesterday i started to redo babyerp. basically i have to update all procedures and all forms, where i call a procedure. 
<johannesV> well, at least update the procedure definitions
<SachaS> yeah i have to think how i update, as i used a {} as return value.
<SachaS> i am not sure how I will do it. maybe just return a string?
<johannesV> hmm, what about using exceptions instead of returning error-state information ?
<SachaS> i dont know yet.
<SachaS> or just return a boolean
<SachaS> or yes, using exceptions.
<SachaS> means i have to catch them as well ;)
<johannesV> of course, but it's a much cleaner way of solving things
<SachaS> ok
<johannesV> and you're still able to return a function result
<SachaS> question:
<SachaS> if i define the return type a number
<SachaS> and i also set nullable
<SachaS> then i can return "nil" or "null" (or whatever it is in python)?
<johannesV> this would be 'None'
<SachaS> ok. None.
<SachaS> so i basically can chose between the return data type and None
<SachaS> ok
<SachaS> johannesV another question:
* johannesV at phone
<SachaS> ok.
<SachaS> i will wait.
<johannesV> ok, back
<SachaS> ok
<johannesV> SachaS, yes you can return None (if procedure is 'nullable') or a value
<SachaS> ok
<SachaS> thanks
<SachaS> other question:
<SachaS> i saw two places where procedures are called:
<johannesV> to check wether a value is none do something like 'if foo is None'
<SachaS> 1) gnue-forms
<SachaS> 2) from within a procedure
<SachaS> for 2) it would be nice to have all data type available which the language provides.
<SachaS> what do you think of this?
<johannesV> this would be tricky if there are more than one languages in use 
<SachaS> yeah.
<johannesV> appserver is designed to support not just python as 'trigger' or 'procedure'-language
<SachaS> do you see the need to call a procedure from within a procedure?
<johannesV> so what datatypes are 'the basic ones' ?
<johannesV> well, i think this would be replaced by 'calculated fields' in most of the cases
<SachaS> ok gotcha. so appserver defines the supported datatypes. and the selected programming language has to support that datatype.
<johannesV> right
<johannesV> or kind of that ...
<SachaS> ok. its a bit of a limitation...
<SachaS> or we can only uses a small subset of data types
<johannesV> at the moment we're using a specified set of data types
<SachaS> yes.
<johannesV> maybe this set will be increased in the future
<SachaS> yes.
<johannesV> calling procedures from within procedures: shouldn't be a problem
<SachaS> calling procedures from within procedures: does this require gnue-common underneath, right? the calling procedure connects to the appserver and makes a request to the second procedure.
<SachaS> just as it would be a gnue-forms client
<johannesV> both procedures are executed at/in the appserver
<johannesV> usually the language-interface would do the dirty work
<SachaS> ok
<SachaS> ok. i have to think if i want to use the exceptions.
<johannesV> where's the difference between writing a handler for error-case or trapping an exception ?
<SachaS> looks basically the same
<johannesV> (res, msg) = fooBar ()
<johannesV> if not res:
<johannesV>   print "Error:", msg
<johannesV> or
<johannesV> try:
<johannesV>   fooBar ()
<johannesV> except Exception, msg:
<johannesV>   print "Error:", msg
<johannesV> of course this is just a primitve sample, but Exception-handling is much more powerfull than any other construct
<SachaS> hmmm
<johannesV> (please refer to pythons doc for more details)
<SachaS> yeah i should use it.
<SachaS> yep
<SachaS> ok
<johannesV> you can use more detailed exceptions 
<johannesV> like
<johannesV> try:
<johannesV>   fooBar ()
<johannesV> except ASpecialOne, msg:
<johannesV>   print "This isn't sane ...", msg
<johannesV> except Exception, msg:
<johannesV>   print "Error:", msg
<johannesV> this way you can trapp multiple situations without using a dict as restult type !
<SachaS> ok.msg is a string?
<SachaS> thats what i am looking for, i think.
<johannesV> actually msg is an instance, but it's __repr__ or __str__ method get's called if used in a string-like context
<SachaS> ok
<johannesV> you can use sys.exc_info () as well in an exception-block if you leave msg out
<johannesV> like:
<johannesV> exception Exception:
<johannesV>   print sys.exc_info () 
<johannesV> where sys.exc_info () returns a tuple describing the exception
<SachaS> ok.
<SachaS> and how
<SachaS> is ASpecialOne a class, inheriting from Exception class?
<johannesV> could be yes
<SachaS> could be? i mean does the client sort out what sort of exception is coming back from the server?
<SachaS> or must the client (gnue-forms) include an exception definition file?
<johannesV> The trapping code must know the exception class if it should be caught by type
<SachaS> ok.
<johannesV> in the sample above a class definition for 'ASpecialOne' must be available to the catching code
<SachaS> so in the gnue-forms trigger i have to import the file, where I defined the exception?
<johannesV> if you won't have this definition available you can still catch the superclasses (i.e. Exception)
<johannesV> that's right
<SachaS> yep.
<SachaS> ok. so there is a file which must be imported in the procedure and in the trigger.
<SachaS> might cause a problem, probably rather a question how you distribute the client...so that you make sure, that the client finds the file ...
<johannesV> hmm, yes ... 
<johannesV> that's something we should think about
<johannesV> i'll write this issue down and bring it up in our meeting tomorrow
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<SachaS> ok. great. is reinhard back tomorrow?
<johannesV> maybe something like gnue_exceptions
<SachaS> hmmm yeah
<johannesV> yes, he'll arrive today in the evening
<johannesV> but than there's still the import-thing left ...
<SachaS> and the appserver makes sure, that the client has all the exception definitions
<johannesV> could be a possible solution, but than there would be a pretty polluted namespace in the trigger itself
<SachaS> if you define a java method, you have to mention, which exceptions the method throws...
<SachaS> yeah. is that meeting a bytewise or gnue meeting?
<johannesV> ok, but this would mean another detail to the procedures
<johannesV> actually these are the same meetings :)
<SachaS> :)
<SachaS> what time is it?
<SachaS> ;)
<johannesV> first part is bytewise, second part is gnue, since a part of my job at bytewise is gnue
<johannesV> 9 o'clock
<SachaS> in the morning'
<SachaS> ?
<johannesV> yea
<SachaS> oh cant make that.
<SachaS> bugger
<SachaS> i could have come for the second part ;)
<johannesV> well, you would have to ask reinhard for that -- he's the boss :))
<SachaS> he is the man
<SachaS> well ask him tomorrow, i would like to know a little bit more what you have in mind with appserver
<SachaS> and i am sure reinhard has a lot to tell from sweden ...
<SachaS> i could make it for the afternoon ...
<johannesV> :)
<johannesV> ok
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<SachaS> how do I hyphenate "characteristics" ?
<SachaS> any native english speaking person here?
<dsmith> I'm here, but I can't answer you.
<SachaS> :)
<dsmith> ter-ist
<SachaS> i would go for: char-ac-ter-is-tics
<SachaS> but i have now idea
<SachaS> :)
<dsmith> http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=characteristics
* SachaS searching for a hyphenation website
<SachaS> :)
<SachaS> Main Entry: 1char?ac?ter?is?tic
<SachaS> :)
<SachaS> 100 points :)
<SachaS> thanks
<dsmith> np
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<mixi> hello
<mixi> can i acces the most current docs via web oder via cvs?
<mixi> oder=or
<jamest> um
<jamest> i think the docs are the web are up to date
<mixi> okay, fine
<mixi> :-)
<jamest> but all tools have doc dirs in svn
<jamest> the swx files are the latest open office docs
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<SachaS> jamest: did you see adobe pdf forms?
<SachaS> where they connect to a backend server?
<SachaS> i have not
<jamest> i have not
<SachaS> ok
<chillywilly> does anyone know of some good EDI software that will integrate with M$ access?
<chillywilly> ;P
* dsmith puts on a sour face
<SachaS> chillywilly cant help you with either. have you tried google ;)
<chillywilly> the acces system is being phased out but this is not happening at record speed or anything like that
<chillywilly> ;P
<chillywilly> it's a ways away
<dsmith> chillywilly: Probably unreleated, but something intresting to think about: We had a ms app that used DAO (ADO?) and there were many problems.  We used sqlite instead. WOrked great.  There are even some dlls for vb.  The code that talked to the db wasn't changed at all.
<chillywilly> I already have a migration path/plan to my mod_python appserver and postgres but thanks anyway ;)
<chillywilly> it's just easier to use some EDI software for now so I can concentrate on some other things
<SachaS> chillywilly on sourceforge.net i saw some edi stuff
<chillywilly> eventually I will translate EDI documents to XMLRPC calls
<chillywilly> really?
<chillywilly> I was looking for some open/free EDI stuff but couldn't find much
* chillywilly looks at SF
<chillywilly> geez, this is not very helpful ;) too many results returned
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<chillywilly> when are people going to start using XML? ;)
<chillywilly> and dump EDI ;)
<chillywilly> EDI is not pretty
<nickr> like most XML uses are pretty.
<nickr> EDI is like the creature from the black lagoon, but XML is like godzilla
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<chillywilly> xml rocks when used appropriately
<SachaS> chillywilly
<chillywilly> I think electronic data exchange between businesses would be a perfectly good use of XML
<chillywilly> SachaS: 
<SachaS> look ebXML ;)
<SachaS> and look
<chillywilly> yea, but there are too many customers that use EDI...blech
<SachaS> UBL (Universal Business Language)
<nickr> sure, xml can be good if you have those fairies around to control him, but usually he just wrecks up the place
<chillywilly> what am I supposed to do ;)
<SachaS> transform the company 
<SachaS> jk
<chillywilly> right....
<chillywilly> not
* SachaS thinks he should port his ebXML staff to the latest ruby version
<chillywilly> I need food
<chillywilly> staff?
<SachaS> stuff?
<SachaS> sorry stuff
<chillywilly> I thought staff was like a group of people that work for someone ;)
<SachaS> why do i keep mixing them up?
<chillywilly> or a long stick
<chillywilly> ;P
<SachaS> ;)
<chillywilly> *thwap*(
<SachaS> hey chillywilly
<chillywilly> hey SachaS 
<SachaS> what was that REST site?
<chillywilly> I dunno...you can find the wiki with google
<SachaS> bah
<SachaS> thanks ;)
<chillywilly> heheh
<SachaS> chillywilly
<chillywilly> SachaS
<SachaS> you liked MDA?
<SachaS> model driven architecture.
<chillywilly> no idea
<SachaS> ok
<chillywilly> sometimes getting too generic with middleware can cost you more than you'd like to admit ;)
<chillywilly> anyway, I think lunch is on the horizon
<SachaS> ok
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<chillywilly> bah....
<reinhard> mmmhhh
<reinhard> 610 new mails
<SachaS> hallo reinhard
<SachaS> you seem to be back in austria :)
<SachaS> welcome back
<SachaS> johannesV told me about your 9am meeting tomorrow
<SachaS> i wish i could come but i have to see the doctor tomorrow morning :(
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<jamest> reinhard: how did your curses adventures go?
<SachaS> I think reinhard is reading emails :)
<jamest> he actually reads them?
<jamest> wow
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<dsmith> Mmm. curses adventures.
<dsmith> Zork was great.
<jamest> lol, i have zork on my pda
<jcater> slackers
* reinhard has been "celebrating" wedding day till now and will now start actually reading the mails...
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<jamest> jcater: you're just jeallous
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<jcater> maybe
<jcater> or I could just be jealous
<jamest> new
<jamest> nah
<jamest> you're jellous
* dsmith imagines jcater in a commercial featuring Bill Cosby
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<dhill1> jcater, I think I found a bug in Designer.
<dhill1> I asked Derek how to report it.
<dhill1> He said, "Tell jcater 'this crap is broken on win32'"
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<jcater> dhill1: hmm
<jcater> the best way to report bugs
<jcater> is to not mention derek in the process
<jcater> =)
<dhill1> Good point.
* dhill1 makes a note
<dhill1> Drag and drop from the schema navigator doesn't seem to work on win32.
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<jcater> ah
<jcater> hmm
<dhill1> Derek's solution to the problem is to get me a linux workstation.  
<dhill1> But that might take a while.
<jcater> unfortunately I don't have a windows machine to test on
<dhill1> I can see how that might be a problem.
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<jcater> tell derek to hook you up w/transparent X on your Windows machine
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<dhill1> "Transparent X" ... sounds like some sort of hallucinigen...
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<reinhard> jcater, i've tried to play around with cursing
<reinhard> but i've got the feeling that a file is missing
<reinhard> or
<reinhard> if there is no file missing, i've got the feeling that the current code is completely broken
<reinhard> :)
<reinhard> my question basically is
<reinhard> how close is the current code to a working code?
<jamest> at one time quite a bit was working
<jamest> iirc the issues were
<jamest>   dropdowns
<jamest>   tabs were not displayed but pages worked
<jcater> the main issue was lack of panel support in curses
<jcater> which is was being rewritten to support
<jcater> without it, it made multi-page/multi-form/popup forms a nightmare
<reinhard> there is a tests/demo.py in cursing
<reinhard> of which basically not a single item does work
<reinhard> everywhere all across the code, there are references to the ScreenContainer
<reinhard> which seems to not exist any more
<jcater> it was in the middle of a gutting
<reinhard> error: gutting not found in dictionary
<reinhard> :-)
<jamest> he was mad goat raping it
<jamest> and got tired
<reinhard> ah ok
<reinhard> so it'll be ok if i again mad goat rape it?
* jamest falls from chair
<jcater> yes
<jamest> you're asking permission to mad goat rape part of GNUe?
<jcater> reinhard: imho the biggest shortcoming of it, that it was missing, was support for curses.panel
<reinhard> i'm not sure if i can adhere to the unwritten concepts standing behind the begun-but-not-finished "gutting"
<jamest>  /msg jcater what's up with this guy?
<jcater>  /msg jamest he's just back from holiday, give him a few days to recover
<reinhard> holiday??
<reinhard> i was attending a 3-day meeting
<jcater> vacation?
<jcater> oh
<jamest> reinhard: you make it work and I personally don't care if every variable follows the convention reindhardRules1, reinhardRules2, reinhardRules3
<reinhard> jamest, lol
<reinhard> bah
<reinhard> why does xchat 2 make name, instead of name:??
<jamest> of course if you were one of my student assistants you'd abbrivate that rr1, rr2,rr3
* reinhard changed it again
<reinhard> jamest: lol
<reinhard> aaaahh
<reinhard> better :)
<reinhard> curses.panel is basically the stuff where you have multiple pages with those tabs on the top?
<jamest> it's were you have a piece of screen that remembers what is under it
<jcater> yes
<jcater> to jamest
<jamest> without that forms would be forced to remember what's under every popup dialog
<reinhard> ah
<reinhard> gotcha
<jcater> well, it'll get particularly messy
<reinhard> what about redrawing the lower form after deleting the popup?
<jcater> when we do the integrator bit :)
<jcater> reinhard: that is the way it used to work
<jamest> panel handled that automagically
<jamest> iirc
<reinhard> ok
<jcater> and that got really troublesome for anything more complex than a simple form
<jcater> hence the gutting
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> so it is really a fact actually that curses is currently in a completely non-working state?
<jamest> jcater messed with curses last but IIRC the curses library we used didn't support panel at all
<reinhard> well
<reinhard> for current svn, not even label works :)
<jcater> fwiw, the current broken curses was accidentally committed
<jcater> while committing some other stuff
<jcater> :-/
<reinhard> oh
<reinhard> sounds familiar :)
<jamest> you could roll that part out if you wanted
<jcater> well, it was broken before my commit
<jcater> but just more broken now :)
<jcater> fwiw, I don't see me gnue'n much in the near future
<jcater> aside for small improvements in forms, et al
<jamest> you always say that
<jamest> then you come crawling back for your fix
<jamest> bwahahahahahaha
<reinhard> hehe
<jcater> well, true
<jcater> but we sold the business
<jcater> and I'm doing more marketing at work than programming
<jamest> which means more time for GNUe!
<jcater> roflmao
<jcater> you think you're funny
<jcater> ... but you're not
<jamest> you know you want to
<jcater> of course I do
<jamest> once I'm done bastardizing pdf writer
<jcater> I'm jones'ing to tear into forms
<jamest> you'll just have to merge it into reports
<jamest> it's that itch you have to scratch
<jamest> anyone know of a way to scale text output to the width of a page via command line
<jcater> ?
<jamest> i've got a sql statement output just  a tad to wide for portait on paper
<jamest> but overkill for landscape
<jamest> i'd like to do
<jamest> cat output | txt2ps | scale2onePageWide | lpr
<jamest> something like that
<jcater> ah
<jcater> enscript -P <printer> file
<jamest> it line wraps
<jcater> -f Courier10
<jamest> which butchers the report
<jamest> ah
<jamest> cool as i was using enscript 
<jamest> it's just easier to type lpr in irc :)
<jcater> :)
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<reinhard> vcs
<reinhard> err
<reinhard> wrong window
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