*** gsoti_away has joined #gnuenterprise *** reinhard has joined #gnuenterprise *** kilo has joined #gnuenterprise *** dimas_ has joined #gnuenterprise *** dimas has quit IRC *** sjc has joined #gnuenterprise morning i am impressed gtk interface rules!!! good morning kil kilo hi reinhard did you ever try to use the standard font under windows? please repeat, it is monday... for win32 ui in forms you set the font to courier new don't you? wait heh C:\> WIN Bad command or filename C:\> LOSE Loading Microsoft Windows ... http://www.linspire.com/RunLinspireFlash.php hi ajmitch_: thanks for uploading navigator! hi ajmitch_ reinhard: ok, i get the picture now. yes, courier is set but why... we should ask btami ok as i was surprised how much better forms look with a non-fixed width font bt btw does windows have the concept of a layout manager? reinhard: it was uploaded about 10 min after you left :) cool i think i will have to translate another hurd web page to german as a consideration for his help ;-) well tttt forms using native windows interface do look great what do you mean by layout manager tttt forms? layout manager: some kind of automatic placement of widgets in a form where the widgets are placed (and maybe even sized) to make best use of available form size tttt=to tell the truth i dont know of a layout manager as such ok hehe, i like tttt seriously using courier in a form makes it look very unprofessional, very not-really-native-but-somehow-converted-from-a-text-interface bitstream vera sans mono :) ajmitch_: did you try gtk2 forms? very nrnbscfati? you can use them in bitstream vera sans mono reinhard: yeah I have and alternatively in the standard font of the theme (if you set fixedWidthFont to 0 in gnue.conf) and it looks much better in standard theme font well, btami is the man who wakes up and murmurs windows code 8-))) because it just integrates with the rest of gnome kilo: lol i used to code windows in C and C++, when win95 came out... now that was coding reinhard: the theme monospoace font? a pity designer still looks so ugly then ;) ajmitch_: no, the same fonts as the menus, the buttons and all the rest are for me this is sans aka bitstream vera sans * SachaS upgrade linux kernel from 2.2 to 2.4.26 on a remote linux box :) server is backup and running. * SachaS admits that he closed his eyes while rebooting:) *** holycow has quit IRC *** holycow has joined #gnuenterprise *** holy_cow has joined #gnuenterprise *** holy_cow has quit IRC *** holycow has quit IRC *** holycow has joined #gnuenterprise *** kilo has quit IRC *** holycow has quit IRC *** holycow has joined #gnuenterprise *** holycow has quit IRC *** btami has joined #gnuenterprise hi all hi btami reinhard: the dialog window sizes in gtk2 ui are too small yes i already saw that johannes has taken off today ok, just noticed thanks :) :) on the topic of faceName is is mandatory on windows to manually set a font? i think it would be nicest to have the default being the font of the selected theme for mono, yes for not mono where you now seem to manually set Arial well just an idea like in gtk2 we reuse the current theme's font we do not even set a font, we just leave it to what it is initialized by default ok, i will try to dig into msdn how can i get that as i said just an idea yes, i'v seen reinhard: btw. what about multiline edit? what is the expected minimum anyhow, it would be good to have a definitive forms api doc yes for multiline i think *now* it should just be the very minimum just text and return key to make a newline we will most probably want to have cursor keys also handled in the multiline edit but we might want to handle that on GF level, too at some time like return so all ui's behave the same the statement that cursor up/down is most intuitive to go to previous/next record shows that most people don't use multiline edits very much :) *** sjc has quit IRC luch time, bbl *** jamest has joined #gnuenterprise reinhard: depends on the user someone used to excel woudl expect updown cursor to work other users not as much the question is if you have a multiline edit how would you move the cursor to the third line if cursor up/down navigates through records? btami: are you making a .NET client (i.e. mono) deke: he was talking about MONOspaced fonts reinhard: doesnt tabbed work reinhard: ah.. at work there is talk of using MONO instead of .NET so that is where my head was at deke: i'm talking about multiline edit gack... speaking of work i need to get headed there not about a entry with more than one row *** btami has quit IRC night?? *** jcater has quit IRC *** ahbanks has joined #gnuenterprise *** gsoti has joined #gnuenterprise *** kilo has joined #gnuenterprise *** wayneg1 has quit IRC *** jcater has joined #gnuenterprise *** wayneg has joined #gnuenterprise *** johannesV has joined #gnuenterprise any new bug-reports on gtk2-driver ? *** gsoti has quit IRC reinhard: the dialog window sizes in gtk2 ui are too small (also true for hotline dialogs ) too small ? ok, right, they're badly small .. what about having menu-bars, tool-bars and statusbars available in dialogs, too (if not turned off via FEATURESET) *** sjc has joined #gnuenterprise *** bluesbaron_ has joined #gnuenterprise *** bluesbaron_ has left #gnuenterprise *** johannesV has quit IRC *** holycow has joined #gnuenterprise *** jets has joined #gnuenterprise anyone know of a good way to spoof the ip address that your browser broadcasts? broadcasts? i actually found a website that turns all pages forbidden 403 for me when at work best i can tell this is their server (not my proxy) there is no way and im thinking because it is i broadcast a .gov domain because its endemic in the internet protocol that your ip address is known to the recieving end its not a 'broadcast' which i think is really cool that they do that, but mildly frustrating as well :) unless you want to pay for something like anonymizer.com or FishyFishyNet, although we haven't written it yet roflmao i went to anonymizer.com and its blocked by my proxy as a "bad site" ho ho damn thought police will be here ripping my computer apart by lunch FishyFishy is very clever, but somewhat illegal to impliment as designed btw: it is cdlabelgen online tool is the damn site that blocks .gov http://www.aczone.com/tools/cdinsert/ gives use glabels hmmm been long time since i looked at that its rather nice these days will it let me save to postscript (or pdf) * derek thinks cups is still fscked up here and i dont have ability to print to our kick butt color laser beast from linux funny... apt-get install glabels is upgrading cups :) maybe it knows i needed it fixed ;) yep it will let you do that derek: are you sure you're using a good ppd for your color laser? jcater: i havent configured it at all yet nickr: glabels has come long way not impressed with its slimline cover creation I did my covers in OOo but fgor the cd label part, its awesome yeah looks like cd disc label support is good just the covers weak *** holycow has quit IRC OOo worked famously nickr thanks for the suggestion.. i thought it would be more difficult but 5 minutes making a little layout and now i think i have a template that will work in the future *** holycow has joined #gnuenterprise will be available in 10 minutes good evening/morning/afternoon everyone are you ready for GNUe Packages project meeting? hi kilo i am here hi SachaS not that i have much to say ;) but i am here :) hehe * holycow plays the secretary i'm takin notes! :D the secretary has to make a summary and post it to the mailinglist ;) howdy anyone bring donuts? i am still searching for oxygen, having just finished bench press traiing *** psu has joined #gnuenterprise ew oxygen? k. i'll write summary and post to mailing list isn't that the stuff they keep outside back and available i know it can be found in dihydrogen-monooxide 8-)) dangerous stuff that ok, can we start then? i would think so as stated in my email sent to GNUe-dev, imho first we should define the aims and bounding limits of packages ie how complete it should be, should it comply with a given standard or not what would be needed to be developed to call a package 'complete' or 'done' are there any standards worth complying with? other than "state of the art"? i'm not sure picking a standard and implementing it is the best way to go i've not looked at business package standards but it seems lots of major computer standards are overly complex, designed by committee monsters i think we should observe. if we find a standard that deals with a given segment of Packages, then it could be worth using it, so that we would not reinvent the wheel but i do agree that standards are often to monstrous yeah agreed next question please kilo :) as to aims and bounding limits btw there are no "standards" wrt packaging bit i remember reinhard you once stated that you followed edifact string lengths there are "accounting standards" i am for KISS packages for now id more curious to know if there are *any* freely available, popular packages out there s/bit/but but many of those will vary by country for certain packages sql*ledger gnucash small biz derek: that's what i was refering to as "state of the art" and compiere this stuff often isn't even written down somewhere only free ones that pop to mind that have users reinhard: yeah sadly thats true there are several accounting boards/associations here then maybe take a look to see what they do right|wrong and go from that? that publish standards BUT sadly they charge for them * derek mutters somethign about paying for standards jamest: yes, i also think so jamest: yes, might make sense eg SachaS provided a link hr-xml.org, where we found HR-related stuff we are just examining with btami about field lengths this was just trying to be consistent with ourselves i think we should be somewhat consistent when it comes to field lengths field identifiers and such stuff yes, define a so called internal standard or coding style e.g. it will be ugly if in one table, the price is 7.2 and in another table it's 8.2 or like that or even worse if in one table we use "description" in another one "descr" and in the third "text" hi hey ajmitch this stuff might even be worth collecting in a document yes, packages coding style bible Does a data dictionary, or a list of all tables exist? That would at least be a start towards a standard style... there are no existing tables we are actually like starting just now not to sidetrack anything, but work did start on converting Aria schema for use in gl er, gnue to toss another name in the existing systems hat work did start == a) it was cancelled b) it is still ongoing? time issues jcater started it IIRC i was planning to use it as basis for a remote GL system at local company all the conversion did happen to table conversions ok however they pulled me off it to get something else going we just never did anything after the table conversions eat your own dog food. maybe there should be a gnue package for free software project management, inlcuding bug tracking. i know there is dcl.... so definitely another item on the list if free programs to look at DCL it needs a few tweaks (yes it has issues) but it seems silly to throw baby out with bath water *** psu has left #gnuenterprise i.e. dcl does project management well it does not do bug tracking so great * derek has to run off to meeting hmmm such a pet project would provide experience for the non-real world experienced ones. how long is this meeting scheduled for? what actually is the aim of this conference now? do we already want to agree on stuff? reinhard i thought originally it was to start ERP packages no i dont think we want to agree on too much (seriously) as long as we can stay awake, derek like field lengths, identifiers just enough to get things started or do we just want to agree on the list of points we have to agree on ? i.e. i dont think deciding a field length today is helpful deciding that we need to in the future should be enough or do we want to split up tasks as we start playing with a real package is expat supposde to crash when it parses a file with highbit characters in it? then we can argue about lengths and such i.e. what will a do, what will b do i think we should only start thinking, it is a starter meeting just getting a feel for a real push forward aye instead of the false starts kilo: *thinking*?? that's a bit much... i would think there is an agreement, that its time to get started with gnue packages. ;-) yes *really* started not writing proposals just like the legendary team did with forms let people on the mailing lists discuss in circles reinhard: you said you want KISS packages. would you explain and sit down and start writing something :) KISS == keep it small and simple i know ah ok so just for the logs :) legendary eh? i thought it was keep it simple, stupid reinhard: i think you know what you will write: accounting package. reinhard: I agree do *something* learn from that and fine tune as time goes on i don't think we should aim at replacing SAP with the version we write no now it's so poorly thought out it'll forever taint those that touched it what reinhard said there is a huge need for small business and mid sized businesses so i would think those who get started accounting and hr will provide the first experiences... so what if it isn't perfect the first time around at least it *exists* i cannot tell you how many times i get the 'gee, if only this off the shelf package could do this' On proposals, I would think that milestones would be good. Helps with project management & status communication with gnue you could provide a lot of support services based on that need alone holycow: no kidding, i am planning to make a living from *exactly* that I'm with the small first argument, forms has evolved a *lot* over the years i think one underlying issue here is, is gnue really ready for a serious push for some packages, even with the kiss approach reinhard, i think you will do extremely well too i would like to do that here so that is why i proposed to define the boundaries of Packages... holycow: gnue is ready at least its code base, feature set is nothing like it was the first time I saw a label/entry on my screen i remember a while back someone saying offering gnue support at that time would be crazy, is it crazy any longer? forms and appserver are but it was enough to get people like jcater involved *** deke has quit IRC kilo: you mean boundaries against each other or boundaries between what we do and what we don't do ? *** deke has joined #gnuenterprise i mean how big Packages should grow, so instead the latter well what should a package be? GL? AR? AP? HR? kilo: even though i really hate that forms and reports are done like that but i think we also should just implement what we need and come somebody who needs more, let him implement himself oh you yankees, i wish i knew only the half of these letter codes... or let him pay us to implement it :) Accounts Payable Accounts Receivable General Ledger Human Resources eventually, all of those (gl, ar, ap, hr, etc) will need to interact, so a common DB format would help HR i knew, i knew i dont think the pacakges should be too big atm and especially not too overfeatures overfeatured meaing I'd rather see smaller pacakges that implement GL, AR, AP vs an "Accounting" package that provides all that jamest: well, these 3 are really a bit problematic IMHO ok what I have at the moment is an invoicing app, based on what can be found in gnue-packages atm jamest: From the DB side, those will need to be integrated for future ease GL, AR and AP have very much "overlap" yip, one reason i used them up front :) kilo: a good example for overfeaturitis is the currency stuff like in the original package proposal discussion Also, some security needs to be in place. Many orgs don't let the same person open a PO (purchase order) and do AP (accts payable) we found out that there are some countries where a fraction of the currency is not 1/100 (like cent, öre, groschen, pfennig...) but 1/1000 and there are actually even countries where the fraction is still 1/60 as they are tied together, but I'd hate to see everything that falls under the umbrella "accounting" this is a problem we should IMHO definitely *not* address in our first version and then dont forget the brittons... put into one huge package that will take a long time to implement kilo: they have 1/100 meanwhile for god's sake :) but they do use the old one IRL jamest: i am not sure that would work really I don't see where GL, AR, AP, is anything special think of the entry form they last two simply depend on the first one I imagine plenty of packages will have dependencies sure jcater: i'm not sure how ar/ap works in the US in europe, every customer and every supplier is an account and most accounting programs have a single transaction entry form where each account of a transaction can be either a gl account, a customer account, or a supplier account reinhard: US systems are similar. Most orgs maintain customer and supplier lists, frequently progs have one form for both. then maybe they should be tied togehter if people see the need i just don't want it to get too big yeah i'd rather see a separate module for, say the home grown erp I used to work on was all integrated over years of time payment reminders (not sure what it's really called in english) It makes sense to me. AP and AR are different sides of the same coin. Mostly just a difference of a debit or credit, PO number the current place I do work has them all seperate or check printing we are all separate