*** bigbrother has joined #gnuenterprise *** bigbrother has joined #gnuenterprise *** niven.freenode.net sets mode: +n *** nickr has joined #gnuenterprise *** Amorphous has joined #gnuenterprise *** dcmwai has joined #gnuenterprise *** havoc has joined #gnuenterprise -niven.freenode.net- *** Notice -- TS for #gnuenterprise changed from 1107414502 to 1076821714 *** irc.freenode.net sets mode: +t *** derek has joined #gnuenterprise *** irc.freenode.net changes topic to "Watch http://www.gnuenterprise.org/project/news for new releases!" *** chillywilly has joined #gnuenterprise *** lekma_ has joined #gnuenterprise *** dimas has joined #gnuenterprise *** Vee has joined #gnuenterprise *** ajmitch has joined #gnuenterprise *** ncjp has joined #gnuenterprise *** ncjp has quit IRC *** Vee has quit IRC *** lekma_ has quit IRC *** dimas has quit IRC *** ajmitch has quit IRC *** chillywilly has quit IRC *** ncjp has joined #gnuenterprise *** ajmitch has joined #gnuenterprise *** chillywilly has joined #gnuenterprise *** lekma_ has joined #gnuenterprise *** dimas has joined #gnuenterprise *** Vee has joined #gnuenterprise *** bigbrother has joined #gnuenterprise *** bigbrother has joined #gnuenterprise *** nickr has joined #gnuenterprise *** havoc has joined #gnuenterprise *** reinhard has joined #gnuenterprise *** dcmwai has joined #gnuenterprise *** Amorphous has joined #gnuenterprise *** apauley has joined #gnuenterprise *** sjc has joined #gnuenterprise *** dcmwai has quit IRC *** johannesV has joined #gnuenterprise good morning good morning morning what about the (pre-)release-schedule ? what will be release when ? everything ASAP ;-) do you have something left on your TODO? reinhard, yeah i'd like to do case-checks for gld's (which won't take very long) does that affect common? and i'd like to add that guid-thingy to common if you don't mind ... ok then i'll wait with prereleases so we could have appserver with 0.4 either using 'normal' gnue_id's or guid's you just have to say "fire" and i'll shoot ;-) ok great :) what is guid's dimas, globally unique identifier also know as UUID (universal unique identifier) it is still a string of length 32 how it differs with gnue_id? it's just another algorithm for generating a gnue_id gnue_id is just a string of random numbers nothing will change for the user or developer we just replace the pure random 32 char string by a smarter algorithm that is meant to be about 100% guaranteed unique because it uses stuff like bios serial number, network card mac address etc ok *** kilo has joined #gnuenterprise good morning good morning kilo hi johannesV hi all * kilo needs 1 coffee for not sleeping, 3 coffee for starting in the morning at my 'favorite' customer johannesV: i have a small request do you think it would be possible to have case-insensitive 'order by'?? lekma, i've been thinking of this some time ago ... like a param in gnue.conf lekma, how would you do this on the backed side ? in sql for example ORDER BY lower(value) you could let people decide if they want it with a gnue.conf param (like null first/last) by value i mean property lekma, hmm, i think this would be a feature which can't be switched by gnue.conf cause i'd like to do cas-sensitive sorting for one query, and case-insensitive for another one so it should be an option to the sorting tag, i think or better, an option of the sortfield-tag like that's good to me lekma, i cannot promise to do something like this today ... no of course i didn't mean it has to be ready now it's just a feature i discover now useful, so... lekma, so did i ... and i think we can find a clean solution to this. anyway thanks a lot for your input :) I think this is something that could go to BUGS (which is kinda our bugzilla :)) hi reinhard, right hi ajmitch what, you don't use DCL? ;) *peng* ;-) ajmitch: I've been thinking about our debian packages is there any rule how to deal with databases? I'm glad someone has :P nope IMHO it would make sense to create the basic tables neede for appserver on installation of gnue-appserver you thinking that splitting into many tiny packages that depend on the python db drivers is actually a good idea? :) that can be done reinhard, i've just found a bug in appserver :) yes, that too ugh need another minute to nail it down splitting into tiny packages will not be appreciated, I'm sure ;) having something like gnue-common depends on gnue-common-psycopg | gnue-common-mysql | gnue-common-sqlite etc. is the only chance I see to properly sort out the dependencies yes, I've thought of doing that plus it could help to set up a starting connections.conf that gets more complex knowing which db driver the user selected after the demo/workshop I had last week I got the feeling we need a little more "works out of the box" experience in gnue ok, fixed it: if one names a 'message' like 'address_FooBar' and in another gld it's called 'address_fooBAR' appserver didn't treat them as the same message first time appserver uses a 'lower' condition :) ajmitch: the point is: when connections.conf is set up correctly for the [gnue] section, gnue-appserver postinstall could run gnue-setupdb and appserver would run without any manual interaction also I think appserver would be ready for a /etc/init.d/gnue-appserver ok, and there's another case-related bug in readgcd ... with a high priority debconf questions telling you that if you run gnue-appserver, you open a tcp port to a (currently) completely insecure application and you should not do this unless you are behind a firewall we are finally at a stage where deb packaging gets interesting :) eek means work for me ;) mainly tweak, build, install, test, pick up broken pieces, repeat :) what user should appserver ideally run as? its own uid? hmmm good question daemon? games? yes, but as what uid? store data in /var/lib & /var/cache? j/k hmm games would be a good one there is a user daemon, isn't it? yes, I don't know what runs as daemon no data in /var/cache I think most things create a new system uid pid in /var/run as usual then it's /var/lib/gnue-appserver for any data that appserver stores itself on the filesystem appserver stores nothing on filesystem just the init.d script would store a pid (at least that's my understanding of the pid files in debian) * johannesV runs for a cup of coffee .... that's what I expected, but wasn't entirely sure ;) especially if you were to use a flatfile or xml db :D or even sqlite and all pid files seem to be in /var/run hmmm good point in sqlite - that could be in /var/lib/gnue (which i would prefer over /var/lib/gnue-appserver) hmmm yes, I think that's it :) ok I have a few spare machines to experiment so I can test at any time you want as long as you provide a sources.list line ok, I can adduser --system at will no need to beg for a uid to be assigned what about the db drivers that have no debian packages? no need tos upport them IMHO ok with our deb packages at the moment people can use them if gnue-common depends on only supported drivers, then people couldn't install common i mean it doesn't make sense to have debs that are unistallable due to missing dependencies ah i get what you mean well then this person would install, say, sqlite it wouldn't be uninstallable, just drivers that are in /usr/local, for example and manually tewak connections.conf wait, the gnue driver would still be missing hmmm they have to do manual tweaking at least :) all unsupported drivers would stay in the main common package are we talking about more than oracle actually? good idea anything not packaged by debian people that can install dbsig2 drivers from source can also manually tweak connections.conf does appserver have absolutely no security still? ;) yes no https support for xml-rpc? not sure I suppose no passwords will be stored in connections.conf how is appserver lacking in security, then? it's not safe on stuff like session hijacking etc and there has been no security audit at all and we have no good permission system i fear we *have* to store password somewhere if we want init.d yeah but any user using tools has to be able to read connections.conf * ajmitch does svn up just for fun yes, you're right we have to have an idea for the password... sigh, trying to quickly read through this code, been too long since I did any gnue stuff :) tracked down where it does the binding of the port, etc what other suggestions do you have/ I already have a package-split forms sitting here rotting away :) I can easily add debian-specific patches to the source if needed actually that's all I can think of at the moment alright what I ought to do is finally commit the packaging to svn :) although I don't know if it'll serve much use either that or remove the obsolted directory yep * ajmitch checks to see if his svn checkout was done with write access hmm, dunno how I can check.. :) aha .svn/entries is it only me finding it strange that there's no 'UUID/GUID implementation' for python available which follows the internet-draft (leach) ? i mean, i've implemented such a module about 2 years ago, but there's still no 'official' one available ... sigh viewcvs still broken on ash *** lekma has quit IRC reinhard: committed a few updated debian stuff ;0 thanks :) *** btami has joined #gnuenterprise anyone out there using python on a mac ? anyone using win95/98 ? not me which byte-order is used in a md5-digest ? * reinhard is using win ME which is said to be quite the same as 98 *** archivist has joined #gnuenterprise *** lekma has joined #gnuenterprise *** tiredbones has joined #gnuenterprise *** btami has quit IRC reinhard, do you have a python installed on this machine ? i'd like to know the value of "os.name" yes erm no I can't figure out how to run python i have gnue-forms installed from win packages and python is only there as dll, not as exe hmm but how is gnue-forms started then ? i've just downloaded python2.3 (and win32-all) for win* will install it on my xp notebook to do some testing ... but anyway, i'm missing a win95/98 installation then .. what do you need them for? reinhard, the question is answered: on win98 os.name returns 'nt' too ajmitch, i'm about to implement an uuid/guid generator for version 1, 2 and 4 uuid's python probably doesn't know any better - it might have been compiled on an nt/2k/xp/2k3 box ajmitch, having os.name == 'nt' for all win* versions is quite fine since i could then implement a module which has a set of funcs for posix-systems and one for nt-systems (of course it would need further tests though ...) ok time for sleep :) *** jamest has joined #gnuenterprise *** dcmwai has joined #gnuenterprise *** kilo has quit IRC johannesV: i have python2.2.2 on win98 i see it's resolved dimas, yes thanks ... but it's good to know you're using it (if i need someone to test some code) :) *** jcater has joined #gnuenterprise *** johannesV has quit IRC *** johannesV has joined #gnuenterprise *** wendall911 has joined #gnuenterprise *** titopbs has joined #gnuenterprise bbl *** Verdes has joined #gnuenterprise *** Verdes has quit IRC *** titopbs has quit IRC *** dcmwai has quit IRC *** holycow has joined #gnuenterprise *** titopbs has joined #gnuenterprise any consideration for using Chandler in conjuction with GNUe? looks like it *could* be a nice fit as an app wendall_away: url? http://www.osafoundation.org/Chandler_Compelling_Vision.htm ? reinhard: sorry, working on other things...archivist link is relevan looked at it reinhard: I'm building it now, but it appears as though it may have the ability to directly connect to the app server in the future...even though I doubt it is in their plans...they do have some good python coders and are very active potential future connection may be good...just a thought actually we won't object against any interface others build against appserver ;-) :) *** SachaS has joined #gnuenterprise *** bigbrother has joined #gnuenterprise *** bigbrother` has joined #gnuenterprise *** tiredbones has quit IRC *** bigbrother has quit IRC *** tiredbones has joined #gnuenterprise *** johannesV has quit IRC *** SachaS has quit IRC wow we really have gone from appserver 0.1 to the first beta of appserver 0.4 within exactly 6 months congratulations reinhard :) you guys rock yep congrats guys :) :) got to go bye *** lekma has quit IRC *** sss has joined #gnuenterprise *** mnemoc has quit IRC *** holycow has quit IRC *** SachaS has joined #gnuenterprise *** mnemoc has joined #gnuenterprise *** sss has quit IRC reinhard: ping reinhard: chandler folks plan to include python within their build and all required libs. They have quite alot to learn yet.... ouch reinhard: yeah, big ouch...I wondered why the binary build was 38MB I haven't built any large Python apps, but I know enough to NOT do that especially if I wanted anybody to actually use it well, we do that actually on windows bit it makes no sense IMHO in operating systems that have a working package management reinhard: agreed reinhard: yeah for windows it is fine, same for gtk apps reinhard: gaim ships to builds, one with, one without s/to/two website bug at http://www.gnuenterprise.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/gnue/trunk/ should really return a 404 I'm in directory gnue-appserver/samples looking for the script that set up the db for the test suit. Could someone point me in the right. Sacha direction indicate the I should beable to do a make postgres. *** kilo has joined #gnuenterprise reinhard: /me unable to translate tonight, plz wait until next evening for Hungarian po files hi hi tiredbones, if you are looking at the document I worte 8 months ago .... it is outdated Sachs, I'm. What install instruction should I follow now? *** holycow has joined #gnuenterprise By-the-way Sachs, I think it was a good document for getting started.I hope there are plans to get it updated. tiredbones I suggest you use the readme and installation notes in the gnue-appserver directory tiredbones there is the not so hard to read readme and installation text files in the mentioned directory (or it might be in the samples directory) another good source are the modules from kilo and btami are but it says setup.py before it tells you otherwise! you find them in the gnue modules directories SachaS: in case you don't mind I think your document in the wiki should be marked as no-longer-up-to-date and then i remember reinhard started a document for the gnue application developer audience reinhard: i do agree with you *** sjc has quit IRC i suggest to look at appserver/sample and gnue-contrib for good examples on appserver use newbs (like me) need the setup to ask questions and do it for us, faulty docs frighten ppl off What would it take to get the documet update? It has the making of being a good document. I don't thing ppl get frighten off, but it does get them productive quicker. it would take SachaS to send me the OOo doc, and someone to send me two bottles of whisky to get some inspiration 8-)) What type of whisky? * archivist sends some scotish malt islay single malt tennessee whiskey mmmmm All these bubbles floating around, time to get a gin & tonic. *** tiredbones has quit IRC eg when i ran setup.py i gotImportError: No module named gnue err msg needs to say why it failed archivist: that happens when you setup appserver without having installed common before, right? how would i know? archivist: that was a question you would help us fixing bugs by telling us what you did when they appeared :-) yes i have not installed common ok thanks the install doc does not say where the configuation file is or should be as a noob one chooses a directory and starts there i started att the appserver archivist: this is a bug you have found it should give a message like "You have to install gnue-common 0.5.2 or greater to install gnue-appserver" or just get on and do it i mean setup install gnue-common I don't understand what you mean reinhard: besides that i suggest to update the www pages and put a notice on the download page for users to always install gnue-common first (or the runtime and common in case of windows) I cant see a reason that the setup cannot also load other required modules if they are part of the system archivist: you wouldn't expect an installation procedure to download other packages for you, would you? archivist: you cannot be sure the user downloaded common its no use on the www if i am not able to vieew www while installing kilo: agree about the www page - you have write acces, don't you? :) reinhard: i have, will do it tomorrow kilo then if not available tonstall give an error archivist: yes, that was the original plan reinhard: when you do prereleases, do you have a list of changes there as well? i as normal (for me ) downloaded the lot but like I said already - the correct error message is obscured by a bug ajmitch: sometimes I already update the NEWS file for the prerelease I didn't for common and forms IIRC and I did for appserver (again IIRC) if all else fails you can browse the ChangeLog back to the last "Released ...." line ajmitch: how much work would it be to put "inofficial" packages of the pre- and beta releases in ~ajmitch/debs? reinhard: I'd just like some list of changes in the emails you send to the list :) not too much work it's generally only a 5-10 minute job with cdbs anyway the list of changes would follow with the final release as that is generally more widely announced waiting for elmo to create DD accounts is annoying :) ajmitch: so I would say it makes sense to wait for gnue and forms final but add the current appserver beta then I wouldn't have thought there'd be many changes between a prerelease & a release err s/gnue/common/ and that a prerelease was more like an RC ajmitch: yes ajmitch: I agree the -pre releases could also contain the list of changes I think I'll look into that great *** tiredbones has joined #gnuenterprise I need scripts to grab the latest releases or something :) but then the same list would be repeated with the final release announcement would that be waht you expect? yeah, if the final announcement said changes since the last release and maybe a changes since last prerelease hmmm ajmitchie so this would mean more or less a 2-level NEWS file, wouldn't it? chillywillyny chillywillynilly (given that we generate the announcement from the NEWS file) possibly whatever is easiest for you :) I think I'll go for "Changes since the last release" and forget about changes since the last prerelease for now ok would you think that makes sense? yep, it should make sense ok thanks How about a root dir eg gnue, with one setup.py that can deal with all modules perhaps calling setups in subdirs ajmitch: this is your revenge for appserver postinstall, isn't it? ;-) haha maybe :) archivist: not everybody wants to download all of gnue so a missing subdir would imply not required ok, I have to go out now, will be back in a couple of hours :) that would be for ajmitch to do with a meta package or whatever the debian way is now ;) apt-get install gnue-all ;) you know you want to ajmitch some like me have our boxen not on the net archivist: gnue is comprised of several program, libs, etc. and you don't necessarily need them all just like Gnome or any other "meta" project so the setup should ask me what i want I don't expect the source of some gnome program to download and install all the libs it depends on but it should fail suring configuration or installation which reinhard has acknowledged during* download is so small i dont think that aplies gnue is a suite a programs and libraries...the size does not matter they are separate products you have to install the libs first...this is the way things work with all programs that you install....just sometimes there is a nice package management system that helps you out or not there needs to an all option not if installing from source...the various distro packages and winders installers might want to have an "all" package bye just got a visitor cu *** jamest has left #gnuenterprise *** jcater has quit IRC *** kilo has quit IRC *** derek has quit IRC *** derek has joined #gnuenterprise *** wendall_away has quit IRC night all *** reinhard has quit IRC *** tiredbones has quit IRC *** dcmwai has joined #gnuenterprise *** mnemoc has quit IRC *** apauley|away has quit IRC *** Amorphous has quit IRC *** archivist has quit IRC *** havoc has quit IRC *** nickr has quit IRC *** SachaS has quit IRC *** Vee has quit IRC *** ncjp has quit IRC *** dimas has quit IRC *** chillywilly has quit IRC *** ajmitch has quit IRC *** derek has quit IRC *** dcmwai has quit IRC *** titopbs has quit IRC *** holycow has quit IRC *** bigbrother has joined #gnuenterprise *** bigbrother has joined #gnuenterprise *** titopbs has quit IRC *** titopbs has joined #gnuenterprise *** holycow has quit IRC *** jamest has joined #gnuenterprise * ajmitch wanders back in sup jamest and ajmitch hey derek just dabbling with debs hey derek fyi I just got mail at lunchtime saying I'm a DD so I can upload gnue packages at will now cool yeah, it can be rather useful although it removes my excuse of having to harass jbailey :( *** jcater has joined #gnuenterprise hello jcater hi ajmitch ello *** jcater has quit IRC *** jcater has joined #gnuenterprise *** dcmwai has quit IRC *** jamest has quit IRC *** jcater has quit IRC *** jcater has joined #gnuenterprise *** jcater has quit IRC anyone ever try unbuntu on their desktop? yeah I've got a box setup here with ubuntu how is it? been thinking of installing it here on the desktop machine quite nice smooth, hoary is showing some good stuff is that their development version? yeah wth does hoary mean? hoary hedgehog the first release is warty warthog k there's also grumpp groundhog & perky penguin coming up ;) yea I just read that...doh s/grumpp/grumpy/ great, -common & -appserver are uploaded to sid well maybe I will rebuild this machine afterall and install ubuntu I've considered doing that on my laptop my main box might not be so easy to change I'll probably leave that as sid yea, well you're a DD now so you probably need a sid box ;) I suppose so ;) k, guess it is time to give it a shot do you have to upgrade to the development version? no