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<dimas_> hi SachaS
<dimas_> how was the meeting?
<SachaS> hi dimas_
<SachaS> we had lunch :) so we had a good time
<SachaS> we also talked about gnue
<SachaS> actually we are interested in business processes
<SachaS> a question will be how to use gnue and business processes
<SachaS> siesel seems to busy in the near term future, so will I
<SachaS> so maybe not much experimenting ...
<SachaS> unfortunately
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<dimas_> what business process we'd like to automate in the first place?
<dimas_> something particular?
<SachaS> i think it does not even matter what business process
<SachaS> one of my concern is: once we start to put "lots" of business logic into triggers .... we basically hard code things
<SachaS> so we made up an example business process
<SachaS> so there is a base module handling orders
<SachaS> the module has classes for orders and receiving the delivery
<SachaS> so the bakery module will add some attributes to the base class
<SachaS> so does the hair dresser module
<SachaS> just to show the use of modules. eg a specialized module adds to the base class.
<SachaS> so an example business process is:
<SachaS> to receive  the delivery and put the items into the warehouse
<SachaS> this is the base business process
<SachaS> the hair dresser can 1:1 use this business process
<SachaS> orders shampoo can be received and put into the shelfs
<SachaS> now the question how to handle modified business processes.
<SachaS> eg the baker must extend the business process in the following way:
<SachaS> receive the delivered items, notify the local bakery association about the amount of items, and then put it into the warehouse
<SachaS> so we talked about these kinds of things ...
<SachaS> something i would be interested is:
<SachaS> how could one adopt XML Process Definition Language (XPDL) with gnue?
<SachaS> XPDL: http://www.wfmc.org/standards/XPDL.htm
<SachaS> there is an open source (L)GPL  Java XPDL editor and execution engine over at www.enhydra.org
<SachaS> editor is called JaWe
<SachaS> engine is called Shark
<SachaS> dimas_ does this make sense to you?
<dimas_> for now in packages and inhouse there going an implementation of modules that are parts of business process
<SachaS> how are your business processes defined?
<dimas_> for the time when we seriosly look into XPDL or something the question would be how XPDL helps us to combine existing modules into the whole process
<ajmitch> hi
<SachaS> yes that is basically the same question I had
<SachaS> hi ajmitch
<SachaS> dimas_ how are your business processed defined?
<SachaS> in your brain? on paper? UML2 activity diagrams?
<dimas_> no UML
<dimas_> brain, paper(wiki), then gnue modules with logic in class definitions
<SachaS> do you use runForm or something from within triggers?
<dimas_> yes, fighting right now :)
<dimas_> and activateDialog
<SachaS> eg: first the warehouse employee has to open form X to acknowledge the receipt of a palette of items. then it has to open form Y to "examine" and test" the received goods, then ...
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<SachaS> so what I think is that all this logic will be spread across your class triggers and burried down in some python code.
<SachaS> and I think you may get to a point where it is very hard to maintain
<SachaS> and then you may look at a business process description language and try to find out how you could make your life easier with a) packages/modules/class/triggers and b) business processes
<SachaS> maybe :)
<SachaS> so I am interested about your experiences :)
<SachaS> and I think what you are doing and fighing with is the normal first approach to solve the problem.
<SachaS> and important to add: what you are doing will at least results with a pragmatic solution whereas we currently "just" think loud about some form of business process descriptions and their execution.
<dimas_> i'm interested in process definition it's just hard to side away all hot workload and design the perfect system, as you said in the beginning :)
<SachaS> yeah thatsright
<dimas_> how would XPDL work in there is need in user interaction? would it pop up dialogs for me?  :)
<SachaS> i had a "quick" look at XPDL, JaWe and Shark
<SachaS> you define a business process
<dimas_> i need to read something like "XPDL in 30 minutes for ... <you name it>"
<SachaS> actually XPDL comes from workflows.
<SachaS> so think of your UML activity diagram
<SachaS> an activity is associated with an agent (I think). there are different agents.
<SachaS> behind one agent you can set a (java) class which gets instantiated. you can provide constructor parameters (those might be business process instance variables).
<SachaS> then the the class, or object instance is doing whatever it is supposed to do.
<SachaS> so a question could be whether we could call a gnue-form from there
<SachaS> the object can return a value, which will be associate to a business process instance variable to be used in a next activity.
<SachaS> so there would be the buisness process engine and eg gnue-appserver
<SachaS> if the gnue-appserver does processing, eg cron job every monday morning go over inventory, gnue-appserver could kickstart a new business process.
<SachaS> so I think it would be realy interesting to play with these examples to maybe figure out how we have to write business applications.
<SachaS> maybe reinhard/johannes other gnue appserver developers have completely different scenarios in their "vision".
<SachaS> further
<SachaS> you have a role for each activity
<SachaS> eg a "purchase employee" does the order activity
<SachaS> then in your gnue application you associate "sara" with the "purchase employee" role
<SachaS> then if the business process is about to execute the order activity it will call gnue application. in the end "sara" will be prompted to do whatever she has to do, because only she is associated to that role.
<SachaS> siesel is thinking that through such a mechanism we can also set access rights to classes and its attributes.
<SachaS> :)
<SachaS> maybe there is something else than XPDL which has a programming language free engine as well. eg a python project.
<SachaS> oh :) and then is ebXML which is about Business to business electronic commerce :) so an incoming order could trigger a private business process :)
<ajmitch> you've heard of ebXML then, SachaS ? ;)
<SachaS> haha
<SachaS> yep.
<dimas_> :)
<SachaS> we do not know if it will succeed or not
<SachaS> there is a lot of marketing in web services
<SachaS> some are using ebXML, or parts of it.
<SachaS> ebXML messaging is most successful so far
<SachaS> with ebXML messaging you have reliable, secure, authenticated, non-repudiation messaging over HTTP or SMTP
<SachaS> so people are using that, so far.
<SachaS> apparently there is much better ebXML adoption in Asia than in US
<SachaS> anyway :)
<dimas_> i need to read about and play with that more
<dimas_> any links to simplest implementations of XPDL and ebXML, expecially for python would be great :)
<SachaS> no python related info at all
<SachaS> XPDL open source: shark.enhydra.org jawe.enhydra.org
<SachaS> XPDL as such: http://www.wfmc.org/
<SachaS> ebXML as such: http://www.ebxml.org
<dimas_> not our technologies then
<dimas_> j/k
<SachaS> ebXML open source: www.freebxml.org
<SachaS> there may by python workflow, business process projects ... I never searched for python ones.
<SachaS> may be even
<dimas_> SachaS: thanks for the explanation and links
<SachaS> sure.
<SachaS> ur welcome
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<SachaS> www.umlet.com a gpl java 1.5 uml editor
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<lekma> hi everyone
<dimas> hi lekma
<lekma> hi dimas
<dimas> lekma: what is your report solution?
<lekma> quite simple
<lekma> i generate html
<lekma> with gnue-reports
<lekma> then convert it to pdf with htmldoc
<lekma> from what i see now gnue-reports
<lekma> is aiming for smthing that is
<lekma> much needed
<lekma> but not quite here
<lekma> i tried to find any good (and free) alternative
<lekma> and didn't find anything good enough
<lekma> the pb is integrating the previous with the interface (xul/javascript based)
<dimas> i only could produce xml output with reports i last tried
<dimas> need to get txt and html soon
<SachaS> anyone knows how the commit mailinglist is done?
<SachaS> is there svn/cvs tool which does commit notifications?
<dimas> for cvs there were scripts
<SachaS> ok
<dimas> one is named syncmail
<dimas> #DEFAULT (echo ""; id; echo %s; date; cat) >> $CVSROOT/CVSROOT/commitlog
<dimas> # or
<dimas> #DEFAULT (echo ""; id; echo %{sVv}; date; cat) >> $CVSROOT/CVSROOT/commitlog
<dimas> 
<dimas> DEFAULT  $CVSROOT/CVSROOT/syncmail -u %{sVv} moin-cvs@lists.sourceforge.net
<dimas> 
<dimas> from CVSROOT/loginfo
<dimas> of moin wiki
<SachaS> ok thanks. that easy :)
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<dimas> how to define mask for time input only? like hh:mm
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<tiredbones> I just install gnue from debs, there use to be a setup.py program, but I don't see one.Is there some other program I'm suppose to reun for instaling the system?
<tiredbones> s/reun/run s/instaling/installing
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<SachaS> hi kilo
<kilo> hi SachaS
<kilo> jut popping in
<SachaS> i am using my todo application daily
<SachaS> which is cool
<SachaS> have to improve the form once i get a little more time
<kilo> great
<kilo> so now we can tell people about 1 more gnue app 8-)))
<SachaS> i run pretty much 100% on my laptop.
<SachaS> so the first thing i do once it booted is starting appserver
<SachaS> then starting gnue navigator
<kilo> lol
<kilo> a massive gnue user you are
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<derek> has anyone seen this product : http://www.tinyerp.org/
<derek> if so have you been able to download it?
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