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<johannesV> good morning
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<lekma> hi everyone
<johannesV> hi lekma
<lekma> hi johannesV
<lekma> how are you
<lekma> ?
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<johannesV> I'm fine, thanks
<johannesV> currently reading about PAM ... and checking if we could integrate pam into appserver
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<lekma> johannesV:  why pam
<lekma> ?
<lekma> will it mean you'll have to create all users on server?
* lekma doesn't know the first thing about pam
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<johannesV> lekma, no i think pam could be one concept of authentication amongst others
<johannesV> since pam is available on unix-like systems only
<johannesV> so for the win* platform we would have other authentication concepts anyway
<johannesV> but with pam there's a big deal of different kinds of authentication available (kerberos, ldap, shadow, ...)
<johannesV> i think having our own gnue_users class including encrypted passwords will be needed in some situations anyway ...
<johannesV> but i'll work on a proposal and send it to the mailing list (maybe this week or the next one)
<johannesV> maybe you can give some input on this topic as well, what kinds of authentication would you like to see for appserver ?
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<mnemoc> no release?
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<johannesV> mnemoc, release is already out ... isn't it ? at least i saw all the commit mails
<mnemoc> nothing on the website
<johannesV> hmm
* mnemoc trying to find his imap gnue folder......
<johannesV> ah
<johannesV> you've to look in pre-releases
<johannesV> (since they are betas atm)
<mnemoc> aha.... beta1
<johannesV> maybe btami could provide a windows-installer version of that prereleases too (don't know if this is much work to do)
<mnemoc> how do you create windows installers?
<johannesV> mnemoc, i don't know ... i think btami is the win-package master ... :)
<mnemoc> :)
<johannesV> off again, bbl
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<mnemoc> there is 'interest' on navigator under curses?
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<johannesV> mnemoc, i think there will be a navigator under curses at some point in time
<mnemoc> where do you recommend to start reading to learn how/where to do it?
<johannesV> mnemoc, you'd like to write the curses-interface for navigator ?
<mnemoc> yep
<mnemoc> but gnue code is quite big :)
<johannesV> i think the basic concept of how navigator uses ui-drivers should be refined in order to start writing new code
<johannesV> atm navigator has it's own UI*.py files for handling all ui's
<johannesV> but this is just separate from the forms-drivers
<johannesV> so, to understand how navigator works atm, just read gnue-navigator/src/*.py
<johannesV> it's not very complicated at all
<johannesV> for curses: one thing to make clear first is how to handle/display the tree-pane
<mnemoc> migrating it to forms-drivers doesn't pay yet?
<johannesV> is it like a menu system, steping from the top level down to the lowes level (the processes); where a process is a forms-instance overlaying the menu-part
<mnemoc> i was thinking in the classic topbar menu
<mnemoc> ..
* mnemoc reading code
<johannesV> migrating to forms-drivers, as with: a gpd transforms into a gfd automatically, so navigator is nothing else than a special gfd ... ?
<johannesV> pb with that aproach is the lack of a (well defined) tree view control
<mnemoc> ic
<johannesV> (or an apropriate replacement)
<johannesV> but as i've mentioned before - maybe we should consider putting some effort into developing a (clean) concept ... having gnue-forms uidrivers in mind ...
<johannesV> mnemoc, you are using appserver, aren't you ?
<johannesV> what about authentication .... ? what kind of authentication would you like to see in appserver ?
<mnemoc> against a class implementing a generic interface plus custom info
<mnemoc> with sha1 and/or md5 passwords
<mnemoc> anything else can be done syncronizing using an gnue.appserver.language.App
<mnemoc> grabbing account and syncing password from an LDAP for example
<mnemoc> the only problem i have had with account is the length
<mnemoc> 8 chars
<johannesV> with "class" you mean something like "gnue_user" having at least a user and password column
<mnemoc> yes
<johannesV> providing a procedure authenticate (user, password)
<johannesV> where password is already crypted
<mnemoc> aha
<mnemoc> yep
<johannesV> and with LDAP you mean appserver supports LDAP directly (by using python-ldap)
<mnemoc> that's the second flavor
<johannesV> what kind of credentials are needed for a successfull ldap authentication ...
<mnemoc> 1) third-party sincronizer  2) direct connecting, selectable auth modules
<johannesV> what about pam ?
<mnemoc> nah
<johannesV> using pam a system admin can decided which kind of authentication should be used
<mnemoc> noone use pam_unix for joe users seriously
<johannesV> wheter to use kerberos, ldap, shadows ...
<johannesV> pam is not only pam_unix ... isn't it :)
<mnemoc> any other backend can be provided as a gnue-auth-module
<johannesV> but if we'd go with our own framework (called gnue-auth-*), don't we reinvent the wheel (compared to pam)
<mnemoc> gnue-auth-* would work over windows servers :)
<mnemoc> and the binding already exist, python-ldap for example
<johannesV> that's true, but maybe i don't like to use ldap ...
<mnemoc> the layer between gnue-auth and backend should be small
<jcater> I'm with mnemoc on this wrt our own framework
<johannesV> hmm, how do you see the interface of that gnue-auth layer
<jcater> iirc, the bsd's don't support pam
<johannesV> ah
<jcater> nor would windows
<jcater> or
<jcater> let me rephrase that
<jcater> I don't think pam would be the only supportable option by us
<johannesV> that's true
<jcater> but there may be some other spec out there we could use
<johannesV> i don't see it as the only supported option as well
<jcater> where we didn't have to reinvent the wheel
<mnemoc> gnue targets = {bsd,linux,windows} , auth framework shall run on all of them
<jcater> but pam isn't it :)
<johannesV> ok, i'm fine with that ... do you have any other suggestion where to read along ... ?
<jcater> I don't
<mnemoc> read about what?
<johannesV> i think we could provide that gnue_user class in all cases, since it would accomplish the gnue_roles (comming with the permission system in appserver later)
<johannesV> reading about other auth frameworks out there ...
<johannesV> (don't know if there are others :)
<mnemoc> gnue-auth has to be designed to be consistent with gnue, no with other frameworks
<johannesV> of course
<johannesV> i'm thinking of a plugin-concept as we have it for common's db-drivers
<johannesV> so one can decided which "auth-driver" to use ...
<mnemoc> ack
<johannesV> i'm not sure if this is something special to appserver anyway ...
<jcater> I agree fwiw
<mnemoc> allowing gnue-auth-db to use a custom table instead of gnue_user can fit appserver
<jcater> I'd like to see a plugin-based system with it in common
<mnemoc> same do i
<jcater> as I need forms to authenticate against my ldap store anyway
<jcater> instead to a database user
<jcater> *instead of to a*
<johannesV> yes, i see
<johannesV> i feel it would be really nice having a general auth thing in common
<mnemoc> {user,password} -> gnue-auth -> gnue-auth-{db,ldap,pam,smb}  ?
<johannesV> mnemoc, it must not be user,password all the times
<johannesV> maybe it's more, maybe it's less
<mnemoc> then gnue-auth-* shall tell gnue-auth what fields to use on the forms, or what form to use?
<johannesV> what about having a smartcard put into a card-reader ...
<johannesV> well, uidrivers already support a versatile input dialog, so prompting is not the problem
<mnemoc> yes?
<johannesV> yeah
<johannesV> i've introduced it not very long ago
<johannesV> one point is the question where to store auth-information (config) ... is such information connected to a "connection" defined in connections.conf; meaning each connection is using it's own auth-plugin
<mnemoc> joe can set it's own connections.conf
<johannesV> or is it based on "services" defined by - say the "application"-argument of a GBaseApp ?
<johannesV> brb
<mnemoc> bypassing auth-plugin...
<johannesV> back
<johannesV> so where would you place it then ?
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<mnemoc> on connections if forms can be forced to demand some kind of ticket
<mnemoc> i think
<johannesV> bbl
<mnemoc> a ticket containing the info to log into the database, or a session id for appserver... .oO
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<mnemoc> what's the sense of this:
<mnemoc>      title = process._type == 'GNProcesses' and process.title or \
<mnemoc>                         process.title
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<johannesV_> mnemoc, that means:
<johannesV_> if process._type == 'GNProcesses':
<johannesV_>   title = process.title
<johannesV_> else:
<johannesV_>   title = process.title
<johannesV_> :)
<johannesV_> which is kind of redundant ..
<mnemoc> :)
<johannesV_> value = expression and <val if expression is true> or <val if expression is false>
<mnemoc> nice syntax
<mnemoc> is that a clone of expr ? val0 : val1    or just a side effect of and/or ?
<jcater> side effect of and/or
<jcater> you have to be careful with it
<mnemoc> http://www.gnuenterprise.org/cgi-bin/twiki/view <--- spam
<jcater> bastards
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<chillywilly> I love Ubuntu
<ajmitch> congratulations
<chillywilly> thanks
<mnemoc> congratulations for loving ubuntu?
<ajmitch> of course
<mnemoc> :)
<ajmitch> it's a big step, accepting it into your life
<chillywilly> no way man it's easy if you come from debian
<mnemoc> until you know T2 :)
<chillywilly> huh?
<mnemoc> www.t2-project.org
<chillywilly> no web browser right now
<chillywilly> I am in a VT installing Ubuntu on this old PoS machine
<mnemoc> it's a kit for building and maintaining distributions
<ajmitch> and why is it so wonderfully special?
<mnemoc> it let you define your own distributions (targets) build it for almost any arch, distribute it on iso and make .rpm/.deb-like prebuilt package to update the machines installed with your distribution
<mnemoc> package definitions are very^3 simple, and as all packages are almost pure vanilla updates and customizations are easy
<mnemoc> s/vanilla/vanilla,/
<ajmitch> doesn't sound terribly special
<mnemoc> after suffering LFS or customizing debian, it is
<chillywilly> Ubuntu is better :)))
<mnemoc> :)
<ajmitch> yeah, but you guys haven't seen even a part of the crack that will come out of canonical for distro customisation :)
<chillywilly> have you?
<ajmitch> yeah, I got a sneak peak at the insanity at UDU
<ajmitch> things like the arch supermirror
<ajmitch> HCT
<ajmitch> so you can easily snatch patches from other distros, create branches, etc
<ajmitch> they were talking about 800k branches on the supermirror
<chillywilly> nifty
<mnemoc> :)
<ajmitch> it is rather
<chillywilly> neeeeefffteeeeeeeeeeee
<mnemoc> :)
<chillywilly> man this old computer sucks a lot
<chillywilly> how much disk space does ubuntu-desktop take up?
<ajmitch> so get a new one
<ajmitch> approximately none
<chillywilly> you know what I mean
<ajmitch> since it is a meta package, no content, only depends
<chillywilly> I know it's a meta package
<chillywilly> how much disk space for the full desktop
<ajmitch> after a normal install, 1.8GB used
<chillywilly> 2GB?
<ajmitch> but a portion of that is uninstalled packages
<ajmitch> that get copied on
<chillywilly> crap that is going to fill this disk up I bet
<mnemoc> quite fat
<chillywilly> apt-get clean will fix it?
<ajmitch> chillywilly: sure
<chillywilly> well I am hoping I am able to run that after this install
<ajmitch> mnemoc: reasonable
<chillywilly> mnemoc: that's for all of Gnome
<chillywilly> Gnome is fat
<chillywilly> Gnome and tons of other stuff I should say but Gnome has to be the big disk piggie
<chillywilly> 40M available :(
<chillywilly> you know of any packages that I can delete to free up some space?
<chillywilly> 37M
* ajmitch shrugs
<chillywilly> you're no help
<ajmitch> I can't recall what gets installed by default
<ajmitch> I know :)
<ajmitch> I'm just a lowly hacker, not a distro guru
<mnemoc> i have xfce on the old desktops of the company where i work
<chillywilly> maybe I'll make it...
<chillywilly> sure I probably should've just installed 'server' and then pick and chose
<chillywilly> actually this is supposed to be an 8GB Hd but I think the mobo and BIOS suck too much to be able to see 8GB
<chillywilly> 36M
<ajmitch> a real antique?
<chillywilly> 400MHz w/ 96MB RAMMM
<chillywilly> AMD-K6
<chillywilly> yuck
<ajmitch> a speed demon
<chillywilly> heheh
<ajmitch> I've got one similar to that
<ajmitch> 400MHz k6-2
<chillywilly> nice :)
<ajmitch> 320MB RAM, 13+40GB drives
<chillywilly> well /proc/cpuinfo says 397.998MHz ;)
<chillywilly> I could not get winders XP to install on it
<chillywilly> it's a friend machine
<chillywilly> the bass player in our band at church
* ajmitch wants a new athlon 64 x2
<chillywilly> did you see the penguin computing machines I bought for work?
<chillywilly> $10k for 2 dual Athlon 64s
<ajmitch> nice
<ajmitch> dual 64 x2 would be good :)
<chillywilly> 3U rack mount
<ajmitch> care to ship one over here?
<chillywilly> I will paste you the url some time when I am able to run FF again ;)
<ajmitch> I need it for ubuntu development ;)
<chillywilly> hah, yea right ;)
<chillywilly> not mine
<ajmitch> :'(
<chillywilly> apt ran again and is going to claim 10MB
<chillywilly> that will leave me with 9M of disk space
<chillywilly> you think I should interrupt it and clean the packages?
<ajmitch> if you feel it is needed
<chillywilly> it should only download the ones it needs right? the others are already setup
<chillywilly> other packages
<ajmitch> sure
<ajmitch> it's apt
<ajmitch> ubuntu haven't made any drastic life-altering changes to apt
<chillywilly> I know I am just thinking out loud I suppose
<chillywilly> I am really tired
<ajmitch> so are you going to be certifiable?
<chillywilly> yep
<ajmitch> going for the ubuntu certification when it comes out?
<chillywilly> crap....
<chillywilly> prolly not...I dunno
<chillywilly> hmmm, hit ctrl-c but nothing is happening
<chillywilly> 357M available now?!
<ajmitch> maybe I should go for ubuntu certification ;)
<chillywilly> must've purged some packages
<chillywilly> Registering documentation, please wait...
<chillywilly> lalalala
<chillywilly> this is painful
<ajmitch> of course
<ajmitch> be glad you're not doign a stage 1 gentoo install
<chillywilly> that would never hapen on this thing in a million years
<chillywilly> happen too
<ajmitch> because gentoo is t3h 1337
<chillywilly> w00t!
<mnemoc> hehe
<chillywilly> ah, it's running scrollkeeper
<chillywilly> this could take forever
<ajmitch> + a day
<chillywilly> I need caffiene or to sleep
<ajmitch> caffiene
<ajmitch> it's far better for you
<chillywilly> haha
<chillywilly> wow, this sucks
<ajmitch> still going?
<chillywilly> yea :(
<chillywilly> cannot interrupt it either
<chillywilly> oh it's done
<ajmitch> yay
<chillywilly> the horizontal and vert freqs are out of range on my flat panel
<ajmitch> sounds like you need to fix it
<ajmitch> you're not crazy enough to run breezy, are you?
<chillywilly> nope
<ajmitch> good
<ajmitch> hmm, 1000 packages or so to do a dist-upgrade on my k6-2 box
<chillywilly> that will take forever
<chillywilly> + a day
<ajmitch> nah
<ajmitch> I've got most of them on my main box
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> but it won't speed it up ;)
<chillywilly> still a slow machine
<mnemoc> that's one of the things that make T2 special, you build on your faster machine, asn you untar on the slowone
<mnemoc> including backup/restone of modified files of course
<ajmitch> that's so incredibly special
<ajmitch> almost like debian ;)
<mnemoc> :)
<chillywilly> settle down kids
<mnemoc> can you update your xorg/xfce built over uclibc? ;)
<ajmitch> apt-cache show dpkg-repack :)
<ajmitch> ah, and apt-build too
<chillywilly> emacs is downloading slowly
<chillywilly> 21KB/s or so
<chillywilly> oh, spiked up to a whopping 30K
<ajmitch> amazing speeds
<chillywilly> what are the variables to set horizontal and vertical freq?
<chillywilly> my other box is shutoff
<chillywilly> oh can you go to www.viewsonic.com for me and lookup the specs on VP191b? :)
<chillywilly> man, I need a KVM
<chillywilly> this is rediculous
<mnemoc> links :)
<chillywilly> I find most text browsers to be pretty useless
<mnemoc> links -g :)
<chillywilly> monitor is being driven out of range
<chillywilly> I'll try it
<chillywilly> links package actually install elinks
<mnemoc> Frequency  Fh: 30~82kHz, Fv: 50~85Hz
<chillywilly> thanks
<mnemoc> yw
<chillywilly> I think I usuallt set vert to 60
<chillywilly> Unkown option -g
<mnemoc> :\
<mnemoc> i'm not sure if elinks supports fb
<mnemoc> links itself support, fb, svgalib, and sdl
<chillywilly> oh well text worked well enough
<chillywilly> HorizSync
<chillywilly> Vertrefresh
<chillywilly> VertRefresh
<mnemoc> text browsers are very usefull on some contexts :)
<chillywilly> geez, no X so far...
<chillywilly> no dice with this s3 driver
<mnemoc> what card is it?
<chillywilly> umm
<mnemoc> lspci :)
<chillywilly> I know
<chillywilly> but I have no mouse in the console right now
<chillywilly> adding universe and multiverse repos...so I can install gpm
<chillywilly> 0000:00:0e.0 VGA compatible controller: S3 Inc. 86c764/765 [Trio32/64/64V+] (rev 43) (prog-if 00 [VGA])
<chillywilly> can't paste into links...
<chillywilly> wtf
<mnemoc> you may need to rebuild it to get gpm support
<chillywilly> well it's actually 'elinks'
<chillywilly> I am using Xorg too
<mnemoc> ddcprobe?
<chillywilly> hmm?
<mnemoc> from ddcxinfo-kanotix
<chillywilly> wth is that?
<mnemoc> s3it probes your vga
<mnemoc> it*
<mnemoc> and reports
<chillywilly> k
<chillywilly> VESA driver works
<mnemoc> :)
<chillywilly> brb
<mnemoc> 800x600x16?
<chillywilly> detaching
<chillywilly> dunno
<chillywilly> brb
<chillywilly> yep, 800x600
<chillywilly> tis teh sux
<mnemoc> at 19" :D
<mnemoc> i'll go to sleep now
<mnemoc> set s3 driver and see what ddcprobe say
<ajmitch> does that antique card not work with x.org? :)
<chillywilly> prolly not
<ajmitch> it ought to
<ajmitch> I think I still have one of them somewhere
<ajmitch> trio64v2 in my box
* ajmitch must have the i740 on the shelf then
<chillywilly> works well with xfree according to a lot of crap I've seen on google
<chillywilly> s3 driver gives me the black screen and no signal
<chillywilly> think I should try s3virge?
<chillywilly> here goes nothing
<chillywilly> (II) S3VIRGE: driver (version 1.8.6) for S3 ViRGE chipsets: virge, 86C325,
<chillywilly>         virge vx, 86C988, virge dx, virge gx, 86C375, 86C385, virge gx2,
<chillywilly>         86C357, virge mx, 86C260, virge mx+, 86C280, trio 3d, 86C365,
<chillywilly> :(
<chillywilly>         trio 3d/2x, 86C362, 86C368
<chillywilly> (II) Primary Device is: PCI 00:0e:0
<chillywilly> (EE) No devices detected.