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<btami> good morning
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<kilo> good morning
<dimas> good morning
<dimas> reinhard: thank you, you know what for :)
<reinhard> good morning all
<reinhard> dimas: :)
<reinhard> bbl
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<johannesV> good morning
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<jamest> ash down?
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<michael301080> hello all
<michael301080> it has been ages since I looked at gnue :blush:
<jamest> hi michael301080
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<michael301080> I noticed Ruby on Rails being mentioned in the irc-logs
<michael301080> Has anyone looked at subway (it's python)
<michael301080> http://subway.python-hosting.com
<michael301080> I was thinking about designer (being character based and all)
<michael301080> and I was wondering if it could be made pixel based if...
<michael301080> the curses interface was dropped for an AJAX powered web interface
<michael301080> are there any open source IDE's that we can look at to improove gnue-designer?
<michael301080> I remember Matisse was once mentioned with this in mind
<michael301080> [Matisse is the new netbeans GUI builder]
<michael301080> url: http://www.netbeans.org/kb/articles/matisse.html
<michael301080> I think a good web interface to the gnue system might be of more use in the future then a curses UI
<michael301080> that would make it possible to integrate a gnue interface on a company intra- or ...
<michael301080> (perhaps more importantly) extranet.
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<SachaS> hi michael1301080 there is another python web frameworkat
<SachaS> http://www.djangoproject.com/
<michael301080> I know there is / was a webclient in developement, but it would benefit greatly from new functionality like AJAX or even AHAH (Asynchronous HTML and HTTP)
<michael301080> AHAH should be a subset of - and be simpler to use than AJAX (Asynchronous Javascript and XML)
<michael301080> SachaS: I also know about Django.
<michael301080> Django is even newer than Subway.
<dneighbors> rewrite gnue in rails :)
<michael301080> I wanted to mention Subway here because there was some discussion about Ruby On Rails in the IRC-logs
<michael301080> :-) that's not what I mean derek
<michael301080> I just wanted to suggest that gnue would be better of with a good web-UI than a curses UI.
<Werd> Ok, considering the webclient code, the latest updates were about 12 months ago
<Werd> What are the requirements to even try to run it?
<Werd> Apache-Python?
<Werd> I have been browsing bits of the tree, but couldn't fine any references to dependencies
<michael301080> A web-UI (CSS styled) would releive gnue-designer of it's character based restriction
<michael301080> SashaS: there's also TurboGears as a web app framework
<Werd> I am more looking for e web-UI for Forms
<Werd> and reports
<dneighbors> werd i think all jan's work was javascript based
<dneighbors> i.e. most of his web client was javascript code
<michael301080> dneighbors: was the web client using asynchronous calls to the server?
<dneighbors> not sure
<dneighbors> i dont think so, but can't empirically say that
<michael301080> that would make it act more like the other UI's
<Werd> dneighbors: I can imagine that, given the state-driven nature of the UI
<SachaS> i think (very uninformed about current gnue) the gnue appserver has an accessable interface. through that interface, i think, has an object type style
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<SachaS> not sure how to use gnue forms and gnue appserver interface. maybe a combination of both.
<SachaS> commonly with a web framework, you access a database, so maybe whynot access gnue appserver
<SachaS> one would have to do some testing.
<SachaS> gnue appserver allows you to do the business logic
<SachaS> so you would have to try to not also do business logic in your web application
<SachaS> but delegate the business logic code to gnue appserver
<SachaS> maybe a gnue forms to web application framework views mapping
<SachaS> best :) check with gnue appserver developers reinhard and johannes :)
<michael301080> SashaS: that's why I wanted to bring up a python equivalent of Rails
<SachaS> i did some ruby programming, never got into python that much. so i know about rails, as oppsed to python web frameworks
<michael301080> Rails apps are "generated" and the gnue forms to web-app view mapping can also be autogenerated
<SachaS> gnue appserver interface is plain rpc based (I think) ... so it could be any programming language for the web form.
<SachaS> unfortunately I do not have free cycles to get invovled :(
<michael301080> SashaS: ditto here.
<SachaS> eventhough I think the curses interface is cool, I think gnue enterprise would benefit greatly if there is a decent web interface to it.
<SachaS> web browser to gnue appserver ideally
<michael301080> I agree
<SachaS> or web browser to a gnue web server to gnue appserver
<michael301080> SashaS: do you mean a web interface to work with the business logic in appserver or just to use the tools (over the web)
<SachaS> i think the business logic must be in gnue appserver, so that other interfaces still work.
<SachaS> must be ... in the case you want to have n tier (multiple gnue clients working against the same gnue appserver)
<michael301080> yes off course
<SachaS> so appserver provides an interface.
<SachaS> i think it is rpc based
<SachaS> it looks like:
<SachaS> you can do things like (i think)
<SachaS> company.get_employees
<SachaS> then iterate over employees
<SachaS> then employ.get_name
<SachaS> employ.get_projects
<SachaS> so maybe an application (gne web server) between a web browser and gnue appserver
<SachaS> a server that provides HTML to the web browser and talks gnue language to gnue appserver
<SachaS> and the gnue web server should use the information found in a gnue form
<SachaS> to identify what to display and what controls to provide for the user
<SachaS> so if you have time i suggest to check out the gnue appserver interface.
<SachaS> and then check the gnue forms definition
<SachaS> and then come up with a mapping ;)
<michael301080> ;-)
<SachaS> a mapping for a given web framework
<michael301080> sounds good
<SachaS> and check with reinhard and johannes as they certainly have their own ideas.
<michael301080> yes
<michael301080> I think it's important to have the form controls styled by CSS, so they can be shown on a website in the same style
<michael301080> the styling can be added to or adjusted in the generated web-client file structure in the same way you extend and customise a Rails application
<michael301080> it probably is best to keep the code as generic as possible so that it becomes a tool like forms or reports etc.
<michael301080> only styling of the web-UI should be required to get an appserver web-enabled
<SachaS> potentially for some tasks you could directly access the database :)
<michael301080> you mean "through" appserver?
<SachaS> if you just want to list all employees, all products, make some queries, products that is composed of product A and B. bypass appserver
<michael301080> anyway, I think gnue would benefit greatly (more developer interest) if there's a good web-interface
<SachaS> maybe not very smart but the most direct access.
<michael301080> Yes, that's probably OK for all "get" operations
<SachaS> yeah, you would also circumven tall access settings (eg user A can only read attributes X, Y, Z of each product)
<SachaS> circumvent
<michael301080> It would be too bad if you had to create all that code by hand
<SachaS> when you maybe have to create a new product, call a appserver to create the object.
<SachaS> maybe a mess :)
<SachaS> would be nice to have a proper communication channel to the gnue appserver
<SachaS> and then render to HTML
<michael301080> you mentioned a webserver that talks to GNUE, that sounds about right
<michael301080> what needs to be done is create some scripts to put on a webserver
<michael301080> code them to talk the GNUE (relaying AJAX to RPC and vice-versa), and code them to interpret the form definition
<SachaS> sounds good
<michael301080> all widgets that Gnue-forms can display are available in HTML, so the solution isn't all that hard I think
<SachaS> :)
<michael301080> I tried designing a couple of forms a few months ago, but I didn't get any far
<michael301080> designer could use some improvement
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<michael301080> I think Jamest is working on a unified workbench application
<michael301080> reinhard: what do you think of the web-UI stuff discussed today?
<jamest> michael301080: trying to in all my free time
<jamest> which means it's barely started :)
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<reinhard> michael301080, SachaS: dimas has experimented with connecting django to appserver
<reinhard> I agree that a working web interface is a big and important todo for gnue
<reinhard> and I agree that we should reuse something existing
<reinhard> SachaS is pretty close to my own thoughts when he says the web interface should access appserver like it would access an SQL db backend
<reinhard> and this is also (AFAICT) where dimas' experiments are aiming at
<reinhard> however
<reinhard> michael301080: I don't understand what you mean when you say designer is character based
<reinhard> it is not, actually
<michael301080> OK, thanks for the status update, jamest!
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<michael301080> reinhard: oh, thought I read something about that.
<michael301080> reinhard: I just found it on the website: http://www.gnuenterprise.org/tools/designer/roadmap.php
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<michael301080> in the 0.5.x section, in the cell after Finished.
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<michael301080> "still only supports Character-cell based positioning"
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<Werd> michael301080: I suppose that can be mapped to a pixel-based positioning anyway
<Werd> michael301080: Besides, I prefer a proper box-model instead of pixel-based positioning
<michael301080> werd: why is that? can you explain?
<Werd> michael301080: pixel-based positioning makes you resolution dependent.
<Werd> michael301080: So cutting the screen out in a 80x25 grid and putting your elements in that grid makes a whole lot more sense
* Werd expects future displays to grow in resolution, especially with new polymer-based display technologies
<michael301080> so that you can have your 80x25 grid with controls stretch out over the screen in full screen mode?
<Werd> No, with controls aligned to a 80x25 grid
<Werd> So you can stay compatible with curses
<Werd> all the while staying resolution-independent
<Werd> So a combo-box will be positioned at 1,1
<Werd> And have a width of 2
<Werd> And a height of 4
<Werd> for-example
* michael301080 thinks the use of images (in applications) will also increase in the future
<michael301080> ok, I think I get it
<Werd> For moste enterprise stuff images aren't necessary and won't be necessary, ever.
* Werd has seen too much SAP and Axapta for that to believe.
<michael301080> I don't know what implications that has on the placement of controls / widgets on a web-form
<michael301080> OK
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<Werd> Using the CSS box-model, you can use DIV's to fill up the gaps between the widgets
<michael301080> I could think of an insurance agent wanting to have a image widget on his self-made gnue application to display pictures related to certain claims, etc...
<Werd> Anyway, I got some work to do.
<Werd> Sure, I can think of many applications that can use images
<Werd> But 80% of what is out there won't ever use images
<Werd> Not to mention the OSS rule: show me the code.
<michael301080> what do you mean?
<Werd> Well, we can discuss to no end to what should happen in GnuEnterprise
<Werd> But so far I haven't contributed anything, so I should shut up.
<Werd> Having said that, I'm gone.
<michael301080> oh, I get it.
<michael301080> bye
<michael301080> I'ld like to contribute more if I have the time and the skill :'(
<michael301080> I'm gonna wish everyone here all the best for 2006 (before I'm out of here for tonight)
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<dimas> hi all
<dimas> subway is about to merge with turbogears
<dimas> or very probably
* dimas is reading backlog
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<Jave27> Hi all.  So, I just found this project today...  pretty impressed by the screenshots.
<dimas> hi Jave27
<Jave27> kinda looks like a multiplatform MS Access on speed IMHO
<Jave27> :-)
<dimas> yep
<Jave27> So, how insane would one have to be to start using it for production...?
<Jave27> at least the forms/designer/reports modules
<dimas> it is used at several places with custom applications
<Jave27> that's what I wanted to hear.
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<Jave27> this might be my excuse to learn Python in-depth.
<Werd> dimas: I am at a consulting firm that does lots of package & vendor selections, are there any reference stories available?
<dimas> not that i know of any published
<dimas> Werd: you'd better talk with core team members about any
<dimas> Jave27: couple more screenshots of mine forms in semi-production http://ash.gnuenterprise.org/~dimas/samples/screenshots/
<dimas> :)
<Jave27> huh, apparently all of the fonts are messed up..
<Jave27> ;-)
<Jave27> dimas:  just kidding, looks really nice
<Jave27> do the triggers allow for re-querying of the data allowed in a dropdown?
<Jave27> for instance, have multiple dropdowns that depend on the value of the previous one?
<dimas> yes
<Jave27> excellent.  I'll be testing this all out soon.  thanks!
<dimas> Jave27: it's not fonts but some wierd language :)
<Jave27> nah, you probably just used 'wingdings' as your fontset.
<dimas> :)
<dimas> it's language again where we use about five different fontset randomly
<reinhard> <Jave27> kinda looks like a multiplatform MS Access on speed IMHO
<reinhard> funny
<Jave27> :)
<reinhard> just the day before yesterday somebody else said gnue is like a database on dope
<reinhard> :)
<Jave27> we use Access extensively here and have been looking around for the next migration platform for a *long* time
<reinhard> Jave27: if you have any questions: here is the best place to ask
<Jave27> reinhard:  ok, would you like to re-write our Access apps into GNUE for me?
<reinhard> however most of us do gnue in free time or only as a smaller part of their job
<reinhard> so answers might take a while - we just don't watch the irc window all the time
<reinhard> Jave27: of course
<Jave27> does it have any "full-time" devs?
<reinhard> that's in fact a service we offer as a company :)
<Jave27> haha
<reinhard> yes and no (to full-time devs)
<reinhard> no kidding, btw
<Jave27> ok, cool
<reinhard> johannesV and me are developing gnue on "paid time"
<reinhard> but we do other things, depending on how we get orders
<reinhard> so there are times when at least johannes does 100% gnue for a week or two
<Jave27> If we go this route (I get to pretty much make my own decisions for the company on that), I'll probably end up contributing to the project.
<reinhard> and other times when we don't gnue for several weeks
<reinhard> contributing to the project is great
<Jave27> it's nice to see active developers on project like this.
<reinhard> and even using and giving feedback is highly welcome
<Jave27> most of the time this type of thing dies off after a few months.
<reinhard> well
<reinhard> ask jamest ;-)
<Jave27> I'm good at wiki-style documentation and decent in C++
<reinhard> that doesn't matter
<Jave27> Only ever dabbled in python, but i've wanted to learn for a while
<reinhard> if you can write *any* programming language, you will learn python in 2 days
<Jave27> well, learn vs. "be good at" are different
<Jave27> anyone can write sloppy code
<reinhard> well
<reinhard> with gnue you've got lots of good code to learn from
<reinhard> j/k
<Jave27> I've a pingus developer for the last 4 months or so.
<dimas> at least we die longer
<Jave27> in my "spare" time
<Jave27> haha
<reinhard> no kidding: there have been several "spin offs" from gnue because things took to long for some people
<reinhard> all of them have died after < 1/2 year
<reinhard> gnue is still alive and struggling
<Jave27> good stuff.
<reinhard> progress is choppy and depends on available time of the active people
<reinhard> but there *is* progress
<Jave27> I was looking at the commits & website updates, and they seemed pretty regular, so I kept reading.  :-)
<reinhard> Jave27: where are you from?
<Jave27> Michigan, US
<reinhard> ok
<reinhard> quite some of the active developers are from europe
<Jave27> every free project I've really been interested in seems to be based in Germany.
<reinhard> so you might get better response here in IRC if you ask at times that are morning for you
<reinhard> hrmmm....
<reinhard> there is no active deveoper from Germany
<reinhard> :-)
<Jave27> luckily, everyone speaks english
<reinhard> johannes and me are from Austria :)
<Jave27> ahh..
<reinhard> btami and kilo from Hungary
<reinhard> dimas from Russia
<Jave27> I saw the LANG=de_DE on a log..
<Jave27> just assumed.
<Jave27> and I knew dimas
<reinhard> jamest and jcater from US
<Jave27> ok, well, the guy who wrote Pingus originally is from Germany.
<reinhard> chilliwilly is from US, too, but he's not a developer, he's only here for our amusement ;-)
<reinhard> j/k
<Jave27> haha
* reinhard wouldn't want to miss chillywilly
<Jave27> well, I just added the channel to my auto-join list, so you'll probably see me more
<reinhard> cool
<nickr> chillywilly is very amusing.
<reinhard> ah not to forget ajmitch
<ajmitch> who me?
<reinhard> he is our debian package master, from new zealand
<reinhard> yeeeaaahhh
* ajmitch hides
<Jave27> you're just typing names so people's irc apps beep.
<Jave27> :)
<ajmitch> of course he is
<dimas> and kilo and btami from hungary
<Jave27> brb
<reinhard> anyway
<reinhard> it's getting late here
<reinhard> think I should call it a night
<reinhard> cu all
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<kilo> (what was that 2 beeps :) )
<dimas> :)
<dimas> you twins or what?
<Jave27> I'm thinking about making my signoff message list the names of everyone is all the channels I'm in...
<Jave27> :-)
<Jave27> alright, quittin' time.  thanks, all, talk to you later.
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