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<btami> good morning
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<johannesV> good morning
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<reinhard> good morning all
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<johannesV> good morning
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<johannesV> btami, it looks like i can fix that dropdown-problem ...
<btami> great
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<johannesV> ok, that's another bug removed from the new wx26 driver ... if anybody finds another one, please let me know
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<johannesV> bbl
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<btami> johannesV: if you click on a tab in a multi-page form, it loses the focus
<btami> and selection with up/down keys from a dropdown doesn't work yet
<btami> just with Shift+up/down
<btami> but it's not intuitive, imho
<btami> and enter key doesn't selects too in the dropdown
<btami> (wx26 on XP)
<btami> bbl
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<johannesV> btami, i thought it is the standard behaviour of the wx.MSW-Control (using Shift+UP/down); so i've created a sample-app (wx) to double-check it, and ... well, there i could use the up/down keys without shift-key to navigate within the popup ...
<johannesV> so I'll try to figure out what our uidriver is doing wrong there ...
<reinhard> I guess it's the form catching the keypress before the UI gets it
<johannesV> no, i've just added a debug-print to the __keypress signal handler
<johannesV> it does not get anything
<johannesV> since it works fine for gtk and osx
<reinhard> ah oh
<johannesV> (at least gtk)
<johannesV> hm, something is eating keypresses ...
* jamest offers johannesV and reinhard a chair
<jcater> fwiw, this very issue was the main reason we split away from using wx into all the more-targeted UI libraries
<jcater> iirc
<jamest> welcome to our (wx) hell
<jamest> we hope you like it here
<johannesV> i'm sure i'll find that hungry bastard ...
<johannesV> :)
<johannesV> looking at a simple wx.app using a dropdown (constructed the same way, binding the same eventhandlers) works just fine on wx.MSG
<johannesV> erm, wx.MSW
<johannesV> so i'm sure it can be working well in gnue-forms too :)
<johannesV> atm, i'd say creating the wx26 uidriver wasn't really hard (after learning and understanding wx)
<johannesV> which is the real hard work (as it is so much ...:)
<johannesV> oh my god ...
<johannesV> it can't be that simple
* johannesV double-checking ...
<johannesV> great, i've found out why up/down does not work for dropdowns on wx.MSW
<johannesV> it is the menu-item for "next record" and "previous record" which are bound to up and down keys
<johannesV> on wx.MSW the menu seems to have a higher priority than the current control - so the keypress is eaten by the menu !!
<johannesV> that's all
<johannesV> i'm going to change gnue.conf for another double-check now
<johannesV> yeah, that works :)
<johannesV> btami: to get up/down for dropdowns working on msw, change the "key_PrevRecord" and "key_NextRecord" in gnue.conf (as an intermediate solution)
<johannesV> i'm not sure if it's possible to get things working internally ... will drop a message to the wx list though
<reinhard> that reminds me that I have never liked the cursor keys being bound to record navigation
<reinhard> I feel it's plain wrong to have the cursor keys bound to a menu item as a hotkey
<johannesV> at least it's very problematic in this case
<reinhard> there are quite a lot of controls that use cursor keys natively
<jamest> you mean up and down arrows for next/prev record
<reinhard> multi line edits, dropdowns, radio buttons (that we don't have anyway)
<reinhard> jamest: yes
<reinhard> and we will either break that native behavoiur (like it is now with the dropdowns)
<reinhard> or it will be impossible to go next/prev record when the focus is on such a control, because the control will eat the keypress
<jamest> yeah, i'm pretty sure that was an oracle forms emulated behaviour
<jamest> at least I recalled oracle forms working like that so matched it
<jamest> what would you replace those keys with?
<reinhard> not sure
<reinhard> an F-key block of 4 keys matching first, prev, next, last might be an option, but that would mean to redefine other f-keys, too
<reinhard> alt cursor keys might be another option
<jamest> i think my users would hate that
<jamest> the fkey block
<reinhard> alt home and alt end could even be first/last
<jamest> i could live with the alt-curs-up|down setup i imagine as it would require little new learning for the people here
<jamest> and alt left right could work same as shift-tab/tab i imagine
<reinhard> however alt cursor keys are not available on curses AFAICT
<reinhard> alt left right might be useful to change tabs
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<reinhard> what is the key for that currently?
<reinhard> ah yes, pgup/down
<johannesV> no
<johannesV> page-up/down is next/prev block
<reinhard> oh
<johannesV> to change tabs one has to use ctrl-page-up/down
<jamest> my favorite mapping is F11/F12
<reinhard> I thought the blocks were a matter of logic, not a matter of cursor navigation
<johannesV> ah, not F11
<johannesV> that's used by the window-manager on os x
<jamest> F12 == new record
<johannesV> that drives me crazy whenever i'd like to rollback
<jamest> F11 = rollback
<jamest> two functions that shouldn't be anywhere near each other on the keyboard
<reinhard> alt cursor keys could be pretty intuitive for record navigation actually
<reinhard> alt up/down = next/prev
<jamest> but the F keys never were meant to stick
<reinhard> alt home/end = first/last
<reinhard> alt insert = new record
<reinhard> alt delete = delete record
<jamest> though I'd like to see F6, F8, F9 stick
<jamest> and maybe rollback should be alt-f6 or something
<johannesV> f9 is not available on os x too :(
<jamest> sigh
<johannesV> well, it is available of course, but it's already used
<johannesV> (although it's changeable)
<jamest> i wonder if we'll need environment specific mappings
<reinhard> most probably
<derek> dvorak mapping baby ;)
<reinhard> I would really prefer alt keys like listed above
<derek> reinhard: i never liked block navigation
<derek> i think that there is a way in a block to turn that off
<reinhard> but you have no alt keys on curses
<johannesV> yes, that alt-mapping sounds not bad
<johannesV> right
<reinhard> but I think breaking all key bindings is something we'd also want to save for 0.6
<jamest> well, again forms wasn't really targeting consistancy across all frontends
<jamest> just to that front end
<johannesV> jamest, you mean 'front end' in the sense of an 'uidriver' here ...
<jamest> yes
<johannesV> maybe we really should consider having a per-os-mapping of keys
<reinhard> I can imagine people in a mixed environment killing us for that
<johannesV> but better would be to have most functions using the same keys
<reinhard> (think of my brother)
<johannesV> yeah
<johannesV> just think of *me*
<reinhard> well, we could put "rollback" on mac where "commit" is on win
<reinhard> *evilgrin*
<reinhard> ;-)
<johannesV> i've got a winxp on my left, sitting in front of a gtk2 and having an os x on the right side
<johannesV> on the same desk :)
<reinhard> hehe
<jamest> iirc oracle forms did difffernt key mappings for different vt terms
<jamest> and you could override them if you wanted consistancy
<johannesV> reinhard, better to have that keybindings changing randomly during the day :))
<reinhard> lol
<jamest> i just don't see us finding one magic keybinding set that works everywhere
<johannesV> reinhard, is Shift+up/down ... available on curses ?
<reinhard> depends on the terminal
<reinhard> afaict, on most terminals it's scrolling back and forth in the buffer
<reinhard> err not true, that's shift-pageup/down
<johannesV> anyway ... that isn't much better (if i think of a multiline edit)
<reinhard> shift cursor keys are moving while highlighting
<johannesV> where shift+up/down would select up/down to the next line
<jamest> reinhard: what about something along the lines of emacs keybindings for curses
<reinhard> I was going to propose a vim mode for multiline edits
<reinhard> ;-)
<johannesV> *lol*
<reinhard> of course with syntax highlighting and automatic indenting
<reinhard> would be nice for writing triggers in designer
<reinhard> ... not so sure whether i'm still joking or not, actually :-)
<johannesV> that'd be something for 0.6 then :)
<johannesV> ok, have to run now ...
<jamest> i thought designer did highlighting?
<reinhard> have a nice evening
<jamest> l8r
<johannesV> will backread logs tomorrow
<johannesV> good night all
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<reinhard> jamest: I have no idea, never actually used it :-(
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<jcater> it does
<jcater> plus I've been working on designer a lot this weekend
<jcater> expect some mm, mmm goodness
<reinhard> jcater: I saw your huge commits, and it's great to see you back gnue'ing again
<reinhard> jcater: what's your take on layout management? will it cause problems for designer?
<jamest> reinhard: designer currently uses forms wx ui driver to render the form (unless something radically changed)
<reinhard> ah
<reinhard> so basically as long as the wx driver can render it, it will be not a big problem?
<jamest> and iirc it also links into the events from forms to capture focus events to know what is beign edited
<jamest> that's how it used to work
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<jcater> reinhard: no
<jcater> should be a big deal
<jcater> well, only from the same standpoint that all UI designer packages face
<jcater> i.e., how to present to the developer a good interface for designing layout management
<reinhard> I see
<jcater> jamest: I may move away from that though
<jcater> from a coding standpoint, it is great
<jcater> as when a feature is added to forms
<jcater> then designer automatically supports it
<jcater> of course, wx won'
<jcater> won't let us capture all events on an object consistently enough
<jcater> so it makes the designer experience "lacking"
<jamest> i hadn't noticed
<jamest> :)
<jcater> so I'm experimenting with drawing the controls myself
<reinhard> jcater: maybe wx2.6 has become better on that
<jcater> not really
<jcater> actually stuff that I could get away with in 2.4
<jcater> won't work in 2.6
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* jcater found out the hard way this weekend :)
<derek> jcater: do you ever find out things the easy way?
<jcater> that extra weight I gained in the late nineties came about pretty easily
<jcater> my experiments into making the layout-editor OpenGL based didn't go so well
<jcater> reinhard: fwiw, I'm not changing too much how designer works with forms
<jcater> as I know you'll be changing some stuff
<jcater> I'm working more on the designer code base itself
<jcater> as designer was designed to be able to edit any GObject-based structure
<jcater> and I have a lot of GObject-based stuff in-house
<derek> jcater: let me guess you found out the hard way that getting that extra weight off isn't easy, the hard way ;)
<jcater> lol
* jcater hides the bag of skittles on his desk
* derek hides his bag of m&m's and calls a truce :)
<sacha> reinhard: what are your plans for LinuxTag in Wiesbaden? Do you know yet how you will get there?
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<reinhard> sacha: I will be there, but I don't know yet which days
<reinhard> most probably rather towards the end than towards the beginning
<reinhard> good night all
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<chillywilly> bah
<jcater> moo